SPP Machine Begins

[Scribbler]

I think BigSwede's video just won the Internet! Holy cow! What a great explanation of your machine, and awesome walk through!!

(And I loved seeing that yellow airplane in the background! Is that recreational? Or is that what you fly for your job?)

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Bigswede: yes, I feel the temptation coming on... I will put 'reflux stuff' on my list... After plates & dephlegs...

The way dad300 describes it (replacing a thumper with a packed column) there seem to be practical applications of this sort of thing in flavored whiskeys and brandys? (I'm just NOT a neutral/vodka fan, so I've never really read too intensely on the matter!)

HETP: heat energy transfer paradigm?

HETP = height equivalent of theoretical plates. In theory, it's the number of plates an amount of packing replaces.

[Scribbler]

Thanks TS!

[Anthoney]

Swede: I get that you can't put the sensor inside the body of the cutter; closer though? 4-5mm sounds better than 8mm.

Funny you telling us about the ally disk, I have one under my spool as well. It used to be the lid of a spray paint pot.

Made a stream of helipack today. Good HETP but slower throughput than SPP proper. All my wire can do it seems. I snapped it three times trying to adjust it tighter. Will try DAD's idea of lining the gripper but at 0.5mm and only half hard I am resigned to Helipack. My 7" bubble ball should help compensate for that though.

Still have to make a cutter mechanism. The simplest way to loop count is purely mechanical. Pulley on the motor shaft with a belt to a pulley with, say, ten times the circumference. magnet on the edge of the big pulley triggers a reed relay that triggers your SSR that triggers your solenoid. Saw it on youtube somewhere. A man with your resources could probably gear drive a cutter straight off the winding motor; no solenoid or electronics needed.

Don't know what I am going to do for a cutter yet.

Here is what I have so far.

The machine winding helipack

Wheel Chair geared motor. Very thin hose barb on some thin stainless tube for the feed to the mandrel. I had this lying around off something. Mandrel is an M8 bolt and locknut ground and filed to shape. before the feed tube is a clamp made from a couple of bits of brass from a broken padlock. Before that you can just see the cut down brass kitchen tap that moves the wire 90deg.

Before the kitchen tap the base and stem from a small copper and brass goblet that also takes the wire through 90deg. Before that the copper goblet body with a nub of brass stem drilled to take the wire and centre the up and down of the wire from the spool as it unwinds.

The whole thing with the spring loaded spool to the right. The spool unwinds from the rear so that it rotates anticlockwise and does not tend to autotighten from friction. Reasonably compact.

Closer view of the helipack. As I expected once I caught up reading DAD300 and BigSwede. It will be much better than scrubbies and do for now at least, I may buy some 0.6mm mig wire later. The holes in the guides will take the slightly thicker wire. May even try a bit of 0.8mm I have lying around.

The helipack is 5mm in dia which is what I was aiming for. Now if I can autocut it into 5 or 6mm lengths I will be a happy bunny.

I used mahogany scraps to mount it all, apart from a bit of white oak in the middle, on a mahogany base. I like the victorian style of it, not having slotted aluminium and all the rest, hardwood is an easy to work forgiving material that supports things where you need them.

[Scribbler]

Lookin at those scraps of mahogany, thinking to myself "I wonder if he is a guitar builder!!??" Some of those pieces look like they are the right size and shape to eventually become heel blocks... Another piece looks like a neck-blank cutoff!! (Or it could just be me projecting!)

[DAD300]

Anthoney...what is your wire?

If you can spare another mandrel, make it shorter. Same design and taper, but shorter. Maybe a bit more taper. I think you can get that wire to open up.

Another good machine...you're awfully close.

[Scribbler]

Sorry for the newb questions, but I got a few more!!! Why not just dump 5lbs of 1/8" or 1/16" SS ballbearings into the volume? I assume it has to do the ideal surface area to void space ratio? Also, what about a simpler method like maybe letting out a 1/16" length of wire, putting a 90 degree bend in it, letting out another 1/16" and then chopping it off? (Making a whole whack of SS L bits... Because of the angle they wouldn't be able to nest too densely....

-just putting that out there... I am fairly sure that the most likely and appropriate response will be something like:

"Dear Scribbler. The reason we don't do it that way is because of mathematics."

[Anthoney]

Dad: Thank you for the advice and encouragement. Another Mandrel is nothing but time as M8 bolts and locknuts are cheap. I will try but how short can I go? It's 5mm long at the moment, 4mm base 2mm tip, 1mm thick. If I shorten it then to keep the same angle the tip will be larger. If I shorten it and keep the tip size it will increase the angle. So maybe that one. 3mm length perhaps? I was told the wire is used to hang bits from for electroplating.

Scribbler: Left over bits from the window makers that had the unit before me. So projection yes. very common in all areas of life. Can be a problem as most people don't seem to know what projection is and think they perceive the literal truth not a subjective interpretation.

Regards the SPP, you pretty much answered your own questions. The answer in both cases is surface area to void. Ball bearings have a large, wasted, internal volume for their surface area. The wire will nest too closely. This stuff was developed by Russians to separate two different types of water from each other: A hard ask. My advice is to put SPP in the search box and read all the threads from start to finish. You seem to have the kind of enquiring mind that would enjoy them.

[Anthoney]

Dad: I have noticed that the spiral relates to the mandrel length. It is 5mm from peak to peak, ten turns per spiral at 0.5mm wire. So a shorter mandrel should at least make a shorter spiral length even if it does not open out. Fingers crossed for actual SPP even though I am happy enough with helipack for a first attempt and will run with it if need be. Still better than the alternatives and the bubble ball should allow a boost in power input and throughput over a straight packed column. Only going to be using about three foot above it. I will be able to reach the top without standing on anything

[Anthoney]

Just had a thought. My mandrel length is exactly divisible by my wire Dia; I wonder what happens if it isn't? Maybe that upsets the wire enough to stagger it? They must make the copper stuff somehow. Bit precise for me to work to a quarter mill, but can try to approximate it. One variable at a time though so two more mandrels.

[DAD300]

Scribbler, it is the amount of surface (holding liquid) to void (allowing vapor travel across/through the liquid) that makes one type better than the other. Solid balls would have no interior surface and don't pack well allowing to much void.

Anthoney, I started my experiments with dead soft SS aviation locking wire and got the open design. Then I used super hard fishing wire and got the closed design. Some of the samples I posted here earlier are of both.

The alternative to a shorter mandrel is a more tapered on. This will also allow the wire to spring back.

Also, if you have trouble getting the wire to stay on the mandrel long enough, make the edges the mandrel more square rather than round.

I'm sure I can't quote the science behind this, but there is a balance between the amount of twist, tension, the time it stays on mandrel and the angle of mandrel. All of these are controlled by the shape of the mandrel. And I believe even the temp of the wire getting on and off the mandrel changes the final shape to some extent.

At the point the wire contacts the mandrel there has to be at least one wrap before being pushed off to the right, or the mandrel won't hold the wire. And having a square edge at that point helps maintain the tension. Then the angle ("A") and the roundness of the profile will make the spiral change, but so does the tension.

When I started this I held the wire in my gloved hand and used my fingers to increase and decrease tension. Most of this wire breaks at about 35 pounds so it wasn't a safety issue. More tension makes a tighter spiral.

But getting it off the flat of the mandrel quicker allows the spring back and opens the wraps.

This will be different for each wire and mandrel combo, but once the mandrel is close, tension will be the key variable.

To start a flame...the idea that Russian Shiners started using this for home ethanol distillation I may accept. But there are U.S. patents and research papers using it for tritium and heavy water separation since the 1950's.

[Anthoney]

Tried PTFE liner on the gripper. Stops it binding but full tension on that produced no change; neither did tensioning the spool.

Made a new mandrel. Took a lot of faffing to get it to work. By the time I had it even it was smaller across the root than I intended and a bit shorter. Makes a shorter helix as I predicted but not directly correlating with length now. maybe 3.5 or 4mm when the mandrel is about 2.5mm. Maybe because the root changed as well? Still helipack over the tension range. Part way through the process a short length did open up between the windings and fan on one side like Dad's. Still no proper offset but an improvement. This was an asymmetrical stage that Dad had and Swede tried but did not get the results he wanted from. It pushed off the mandrel quite quickly when I tried to speed it up beyond about 23rpm. Finally got a reliable output that was thinner and a little shorter helix than before but no offset. Had to sharpen the angle to get it to stay on such a short mandrel.

Look's like helipack for now and I would rather have the full width. Maybe try another short but wider mandrel with the right slope to keep the width right but still shorten the helix. Make the most of what I have. The change in ratio might effect the final length of the helix as well.

[Anthoney]

I always use as square edges as I can.

I think it is the wire and a doomed cause. S'ok helipack is better than the other alternatives and it gives the ball something positive and needed to do.

I don't want a flame either but my understanding was there is a Russian institute you can actually buy it from and it was developed for their nuclear industry, I don't know when, for exactly the reasons you state for your USA Patents. Do you have a link for those?

[Anthoney]

And are there any patents telling us how to get offset lobes in copper?

[Anthoney]

I'll try adjusting the profile of the shorter one to the curved nose but suspect it may stop holding the wire again.

[still_stirrin]

Video is up!
http://youtu.be/-RkQMxyGbvQ

BigSwede, you are a tool design genious. That machine is an absolute technical marvel. Well done.

Thanks for sharing.
ss

[BigSwede]

Video is up!
http://youtu.be/-RkQMxyGbvQ

BigSwede, you are a tool design genious. That machine is an absolute technical marvel. Well done.

Thanks for sharing.
ss

Thanks SS! Appreciated.

Anthoney, I like your machine! It should work very well. Thanks for sharing.

I had two "breakthrough" moments in my experiments. I've got a box full of what I'd call failed SPP.

I was using dead soft SS wire. I tried 20+ bits, never could get it to open, regardless of tension. Then, I took a ball bearing, mounted it on a metal piece, and set it to that as the coil exited the bit, after just a couple mm, it hit the BB which was barely in its path. That did in fact kick open the coil, but it was hard to adjust and not consistent. But it might work. A plastic "finger" in the path to disrupt it a bit?

Anyway, simply put, get some MIG welding wire, 0.023" to 0.030", and it's like magic... it works. It stores tension during the initial wind, then pops open when free. There are cheaper sources of stainless wire, but welding wire is consistent, spool to spool. If I missed it, and you already are using it, then it's a tension issue, but I've noticed with my own machine that when using MIG wire, it's very forgiving and produces good SPP across a wide range of tension.

[Scribbler]

Once you get it running, I would dearly love to know how many hours of work it too you from "I've decided to have a go at building this" to "my column is fully packed and ready to go"

What's a reasonable rate for high end custom machining work? $250 an hour? I have a feeling that $5000 and a copy of every post in this thread wouldn't be enough to get a local machine shop to do one up for me!!

.... The reason I find this funny: when finding out I'm involved in this hobby, lots of people imply that I'm just after cheap booze!! They've no idea the kinds of investment we put in... Lol, I go through maybe 2-4 bottles of hard stuff a year!!! At that rate, by the time I die, it will always have been cheaper to just buy a bottle at the liquor store!

It feels good just knowing you guys are here: developing and building high end stuff because of passion. I nominate BigSwede as the new Greek God of Copper!

[BigSwede]

Scribbler, I have no idea how many hours I have in it, but for me, it's all quality fun time. My wife has to pull me out of the shop. That applies to any shop activity be it a still or an SPP machine or any number of things I've put together over the years. Wish I could post some pics, but my anonymity would be blown because all of my major projects have been documented on line.

Yeah it costs $$, so what, can't take it with you. Have fun!

And yes, it's best never to calculate what your liters of likker cost in the end; who cares, you made it, it's better than store crap, and the satisfaction is huge.

[Anthoney]

Yes it is not Mig wire and clearly not springy enough.
I did read about your ballbearing method and might
try something like it but it sounded picky.

I have found that if i add tension by hand afterwards
I can offset the windings. It gets thinner and the helix
gets shorter as well. It means cutting by hand or
feeding a stream by hand into an autochopper.
I was thinking it might work for copper too.

Dad: do you think it is worth manual cutting
to change the profile with the wire i have?

[BigSwede]

Anthoney, it IS picky and if you can avoid "post processing" with some mechanical device, by all means, that's the way to go. 1 mm too far, and the ball bearing blows up the strand into a bird's nest. It's too sensitive, but maybe there's a way to tweak it so that it's not so bad.

[DAD300]

I hand cut, because the build to cut the wire automatically, looked far harder than the build to wind the wire and I was in a hurry for my first SPP. I couldn't wind it by hand, but I could cut it by hand. I also suffer from "electromechaniphobia". Making mandrels, cutting metal, welding and running the lathe is no issue. Setting an electro coil solenoid automatic cutter, borders on magic.

Copper SPP...there is very little copper needed in a still. Use a ball of copper mesh to disperse the reflux on top of the SS SPP and you have more copper than necessary in the still and in an accessible place to clean it.

There is nothing wrong with Heli-Pak...it is the lab standard!

The only way to beat the price of SS Welding Wire might be SS Fishing wire. Tuna fishermen use some wire we'd be interested in. That's why the Russian Stillers started with such thin wire. They were getting it for free after it had been used on tuna boats.

[Anthoney]

My 7" ball has a copper plate, caps etc and top
so I am probably good for copper based on what
you tell me. Just the urge to solve a puzzle.

I think I will work on a cutter then either
use helipack or resell this wire and try 0.6mm mig.

Don't want to get too sidetracked.

The ball plus the packing should do ok even
If it is all a bit less than perfect.

[BigSwede]

This'll hopefully be my last post of a technical nature. Been at it, making and testing bits, for three days. I now have the bits I need, can make more, and can do so without hocus-pocus dremel massage work.

One goal was to get a square-ish (rectangular) bit to work well vs the screwdriver profile. The former creates (IMO) superior SPP in that the loops space beautifully, making a more open, much less dense SPP.

The drawing - top bit is the more square profile, bottom one is a screwdriver profile that works very well. Dimensions are in inches. Easy to convert, 25.4mm per inch. PDF file.

sppm131a.pdf

(45.21 KiB) Downloaded 287 times

The key is the radius at the root. Without it, the SPP does not release. It's tempting to polish these, make them smooth and rounded, but this results in early release and no SPP.

I also found it was challenging to make small SPP. One bit produces some really decent 4.8mm stuff:

I've got bits to make nice SPP from 4.8mm up to 8.0mm

That's it for the technical stuff, unless anyone has any questions or comments. I examined the blades from the cutter, they look the same as they did the day I installed them! Very happy with that.

Now I need to choose a profile, a dimension, and start cutting. Want to finish my still!

[Anthoney]

Ta frellin Da. Well done. No ground taper tap required. I may try to make one now you have nailed the dimensions down. Thank you.

Re my own thing which is starting to need it's own thread as you are pretty much at the end of yours.

I have one of those linear slides you get on filing cabinet drawers, rack mounts etc. I have also cut two pieces of hardened tool steel blade to sizes to suit as follows:

Linear slide and two bits of blade.

Larger bit of blade fits flat side up inside the outer slide.
Smaller bit of blade fits flat side down and butts against the end of the inner slide.

It's a tool poor man's version of BigSwede's linear chopper. I have an 24v 0.6A solenoid. Only half an inch stroke but should be able to make it work.

I have to weld/bond/secure the two blade bits in place whilst keeping them sliding nicely over each other.

My question is, do you think it will hold up for a while at least and do your foresee any problems with welding it (annealing perhaps?) or see any better options? I could order a cobalt drill to drill the blades but fixing options are still limited on the thin steel slide; particularly for the small piece that moves and is just butted against the end of the inner slide. The blade thickness does marry up to the slide dimensions with great serendipity. It all fits together nicely with no need for alterations other than the widths of the two blades. Lucky.

[BigSwede]

OOh, nice, I like where you are going with that.

Do you know what kind of steel it is? If it's a typical high-carbon tool steel, and depending upon the weld temp the cutting edge reaches, you have options.

If the weld heats the edge and draws the temper, the whole thing, blade and weldment, need to be brought cherry red and dunked in oil. I think you know all this, no offense intended.

If the act of welding is close to the blade and the whole thing goes cherry, maybe have a can full of quench or motor oil right at the welding bench, and slide it right in, maybe hanging on a steel wire, immediately after the weld? Then temper.

I think the first case is more likely, welding will draw the temper and you'll have to heat treat and re-temper. The best way to go in that case IMO would be...

1) Weld her up.
2) full anneal, relieve stress, cool to room temp. Probably 1475 f.
3) Full heat treat, quench, anneal to whatever Rc you can get without brittlement.

Number 2 there ^^ might be important to keep the weld from cracking.

A borosilicate glass like keep-brite will keep the scale down.

Another option is case hardening, which will work very well for this sort of tool. The soft inner core can handle the banging, the stress, the case makes the cut. Kase-Nit works very well if you've never used it.

I came very close to using a linear way for my chopper, but in the end, banged out the brass thing. If your slide is beefy enough, it should work. The solenoid actuation, depending on the size, can be violent. I thought about using a variac to tame the beast a bit, but decided it wasn't needed in the end.

By all means, fire up a build thread!

[Anthoney]

I think I may have already drawn the temper
just cutting it on the chop saw. The cuts got cherry.

No idea of the steel. The blades were left on a shelf
When I took over the unit. Seem high carbon.
Can't be drilled by HSS.

Never heard of keep-brite or kase-nit before.
May not be brands available in the UK.
I'm using a TIG. Still learning after a MIG.
I do have actual carbon I can powder.
Don't think this steel should need it.

I have two slides and a lot of blade to play with.
See how it goes.

[Anthoney]

For what it's worth the 15" blade I am cutting up
has what appears to be the word Balanood
engraved in fancy script, with the number 7
underneath it. Means little to me but I
assume one is the maker and the other
relates to the steel somehow.

Some of the other blades have Hellefors Sweden
engraved on them.

The previous tenants were hardwoodworkers.

[BigSwede]

Kasenit is potassium ferrocyanide, mostly. Don't let the "cyanide" scare you, ferrocyanide is not poisonous.

It melts onto the steel, adds carbon. When you quench, you have a high carbon outer case, soft core. No tempering required. There must be a European equivalent. Maybe search for "case hardening powder" or similar.

Keep Bryte is a brand name for a borosilicate glass powder used to protect carbon steel when heat treating in the open with a torch. It also melts, forms a glass slag that prevents oxygen from scaling the steel. Without it, with a modest little part, you can lose 0.010" to a black oxide scale. This is one reason why I adore, and that's not too strong a word, the air-hardening tool steels. You can wrap them in stainless foil and heat treat all day long with no scale, no mess.

A2, the European equivalent, has to be available. If a piece of oil-hardening steel is say 5 Euros/Pounds (whatever), the A2 equivalent might be 7 Euros. For just a little more you get a vastly superior steel.

When you think about how much labor goes into these projects, to me it makes no sense not to start with a quality steel. FWIW, good luck!

[Anthoney]

Thank you for the education. I am only learning. I can see where you are coming from regards specifying materials for best results when designing a project. It makes perfect sense. From the other point of view, I get a satisfaction from being able to make something that works enough to do the job by recycling junk I have to hand. I admit the environment being a large but finite resource is on my mind. Also, I have more time than money.

So far I have altered my plan slightly to get a better than butt weld on the sliding blade and successfully welded it into position, twice. After two attempts it slides over the fixed blade with an audible whisper of two surfaces lightly rubbing together. Probably the ugliest welds in the history of TIG but with a bit of grinding everything moves as it should and seems secure. I snapped a piece of blade after heating and quenching it. Brittle with a very even crystalline structure. Certainly a high carbon tool steel.

I have yet to arrange the bridle for the solenoid to pull on, secure the fixed blade or anneal, harden and temper it all. Hopefully today. Actually, I let the it air cool, so maybe it is annealed.

I do envy your ability to work to such precise tolerances and appreciate the insights into materials and methods you share but if I can sculpt something that works by eye and hand then I'll still be pleased with myself. With regards the keepbrite; whilst doing my homework I read that softsoap can be used to prepare the piece for heating and achieve a similar effect. Maybe not quite as good but easily to hand.