Oaking and aging the T-Pee way

[ranger_ric]

Trip,
A couple of ideas. Strictly ideas and YMMV.
You are making a strictly sugar wash. This will never taste like bourbon.. (I dont know what flavor you are hoping for.)
Your aging room is a constant temp. While this is lovely for a ferment when aging on oak it requires some substantial temperature swings. The variations in temp will allow the wood to swell and shrink thereby pulling the likker in and out like breathing. All in a slow motion drawn out dance of ethonal...
I would encourage you to read some more and study your recipe and try to define to yourself what your goals are. And please remember the words of a man I consider my friend (how he considers me I am not sure)
But Ga Flatwoods says,....
"The hardest thing to add to a bottle of shine is Patience"

[HDNB]

well, i've said it before and i'll say it again. Jack Daniels wood makes likker taste like JD. A few here like it and i think they are the patient lot, because when i tried it young, the flavour was awful.
In my experiments with JD (chips) the only thing that helped was time and lots of it. About a month on wood and then a month off wood it became "not bad" a JD drinker i know liked it, but he says "i like my whiskey with bite!" i think he meant he likes lots of heads in his booze.
Anyhow...try leaving it off the wood for a month or more it may help. I had one jar that i left in the back on a shelf and after 9 months on the wood it too came around to something not bad.
i describe(my) JD chip likker as dry, astringent, licking the BBQ is a good one, smokey, tannic, tobacco, finishing with burnt carmel.
try some new white oak, or look for a barrel from a distillery whose bourbon or rum you like. (anyone got a line on some Bufflo Trace wood?)

[Jimbo]

I use JD wood but I cut sticks out of Staves from a used barrel, works great, stay away from the chips

My hooch tastes nothing like JD

[S-Cackalacky]

I've used JD chips with great success. I think the trick is to develop a consistent process. I think it would be difficult to use them in the same way you would use sticks or barrels. Like anything else it takes some experimentation to find what you like.

I have some old salvaged white oak that I'll be splitting into sticks. I haven't done a whiskey in a while, but plan to use the sticks and T-Pees method as a guide to see what the difference will be between the sticks and the JD chips. Might even try a side-by-side to see which of the two I prefer.

About chips in general - The JD chips are already toasted and charred and I use them straight from the bag. However, other chips like applewood, cherry, oak, etc. that are intended for use in your BBQ grill may not even be properly seasoned and can make a mess of your spirits. If you plan to use them, they should go through a seasoning process, then they should be toasted and charred. I would suggest charring only a portion of them and then mixing the charred chips back in with the toasted-only chips. If you try to char all of the chips, you'll likely end up with a pile of ashes. When charring chips, have your quenching water ready - the chips will flame up and be rendered to ashes in a heartbeat.

[HDNB]

i haven't tried staves yet. my experience was with chips. and SC is right, they were better from the bag, adding char and toast too them was toooo much.

i had a revelation on caramel this morning though, after reading this... Starbucks sells a carmel syrup in 1 litre bottles and it's delish. use it in fruit smoothies and the occasional caramel machiatto...never thought to try it rum (duh) or maybe a heavily wood whiskey that needed a bit of sweetness. It would be awesome i'd bet!
good caramel flavour and not too sweet.

[tripilio]

Trip,
A couple of ideas. Strictly ideas and YMMV.
You are making a strictly sugar wash. This will never taste like bourbon.. (I dont know what flavor you are hoping for.)
Your aging room is a constant temp. While this is lovely for a ferment when aging on oak it requires some substantial temperature swings. The variations in temp will allow the wood to swell and shrink thereby pulling the likker in and out like breathing. All in a slow motion drawn out dance of ethonal...
I would encourage you to read some more and study your recipe and try to define to yourself what your goals are. And please remember the words of a man I consider my friend (how he considers me I am not sure)
But Ga Flatwoods says,....
"The hardest thing to add to a bottle of shine is Patience"

Thanks a lot for the responses. I have also have tried 100% corn with about 30% malted corn (done myself), which renders an awesome smelling 85% alcohol. Even the wifey loves the smell of it, and she doesn't drink a sip! But when I dilute to about 120 proof and add the sticks, I get that odd, not awful, aftertaste. I tried also diluting to 80 proof as seen in some posts but the same result. One thing I've never done is to toast the sticks, I go straight to charring. Any ideas? Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy what I produce but I'm always looking to improve! I will, however move the containers from my home to my shed, to see if there is any change.
Thanks!

[NgrainD]

One thing I've never done is to toast the sticks, I go straight to charring. Any ideas?

Once the "fingers" have been all made the oven gets heated up and the wood is laid out in an aluminum roasting pan and toasted at 400 degrees for 2 hours.
Whomever came up with this chart deserves a Pulitzer Prize for Stillin' cuz this is awesome:

Oak toasting chart.jpg

400 degrees will give lots of vanilla with just a bit of toasty...tasty in my book for brandies and whiskey. The toasted wood smells great all by itself too.

tp

[DeepSouth]

I too use JD barrels. I bought a 1/2 barrel planter from home depot a couple years ago for $25. Removed all the staves, planed off the old char, cut into 1"x1"x4" sticks and recharred. It is enough quality seasoned white oak to last for years.

[T-Pee]

We've got three of those 1/2 barrels on the front walk of the place we just bought today.

tp

[S-Cackalacky]

You better hurry up and get some dirt in them thangs. They might take legs and walk away.

[HDNB]

I use JD wood but I cut sticks out of Staves from a used barrel, works great, stay away from the chips

My hooch tastes nothing like JD

do you carve off the char like Deep south? I think that's where i get the echo of the barrels previous occupant...i keep the old char and chisel off the outside part of the old barrel. (not sure what they put on the outside so i get rid of it)

and just to stay on topic, i then use T-pee's toast and char method on my barrel chunks.

i agree on the chips.

[Jimbo]

I use JD wood but I cut sticks out of Staves from a used barrel, works great, stay away from the chips

My hooch tastes nothing like JD

do you carve off the char like Deep south? I think that's where i get the echo of the barrels previous occupant...i keep the old char and chisel off the outside part of the old barrel. (not sure what they put on the outside so i get rid of it)

and just to stay on topic, i then use T-pee's toast and char method on my barrel chunks.

i agree on the chips.

Actually I dont, But I do sand the grime off the outside layer on a floor stand belt sander. And then when I char the sticks I rechar the char again, ha, maybe it burns out any JD character? I dont retoast since the JD wood is already toasted, just char and soak in water for a bit.

[Swedish Pride]

We've got three of those 1/2 barrels on the front walk of the place we just bought today.

tp

I don't foresee them surviving long on the front walk

[T-Pee]

When you are literally surrounded by white oak...I do.

tp

[Swedish Pride]

Sure
rub it in why don't ya

[T-Pee]

Ok. We use it for firewood in the winter too.

tp

[bitter]

White oak makes awesome firewood and even better steaks for an outside wood fired bbq!

T-Pee thanks for this. Just used your method for my UJSSM I used 2 sticks in my 1/2 gallon jars.. but they only have 1 Liter in them.. Did nto want to cut one in 1/2 I did a little lighter char than your pic as I like less char... OMG did this ever smell good when it was roasting in the oven!

I will know in a month to 1.5 months. I will check every little bit though to ensure I don't over do it as there is 1/2 stick extra in each 1/2 gallon mason jar.

B

[bitter]

T-Pee how much vanilla, sweet, caramel and apple smells/tastes are you getting with this method? These are thing think I like most about the whiskies I drink. There is also a hint of clove, pepper (from the rye in the mix) etc

I am finding even though I'm only about 1 week in things are get pretty dark already... My Spirit is at 60% though. I'm not worried though, If things get done a bit much another 10g of UJSSM (Corn and Rye) almost ready to run.. Can always cut with fresh white dog if needed. I think I am going to taste it now before the 2 week mark and see how its coming along

B

[T-Pee]

How much? Some. A little. A lot. Kinda. See what I'm getting at? 60% is fine but don't expect much after only two weeks. It might just taste like wood at that point but don't throw it away. You still have a bunch of aging to do.

tp

[Jimbo]

4 months minimum folks. There's a lot more than oaking going on. And in less than 4 months the oaking is shady at best and the aging (ester creation etc) and such is not done.

4 months is the bare minimum to start drinking anything, IMHO. Even white stuff. 6 months is better and a year is prime with our methods here. 2 years for apple brandy where there are more late heads/early hearts kept for the fruit components.

A good drop takes patience.

[bitter]

Thanks your confirming my suspicion. I was not expecting something drinkable honestly till November/December. I did just grab an 1 oz and dilute to 40% and put it over ice just to check on things. Honestly this is 10x the drink georgia moon corn whiskey I purchased for like $32 $750ml (Canada LBCO...)

I am actually very surprised as some of the developing flavors. More in terms of smell than in taste but that means things are starting. It has a more peppery / rye flavor now than it had white (I'm thinking this is some of the oak).... In terms of taste there is more sweet taste coming through. I am getting hints of corn, apple, when I nose it.. Also for taste I am getting some tannin/oak woodiness coming through the strongest over top of things but not as strong as I expected.

I'm also very happy that for my first cuts I am not getting any hint of heads in the product. In fact way less heads and tails than store bought.. I think I will take 500ml out for xmas or hunting in November.. and leave the rest as long as possible... Just build up stock aging for now... I can always do neutral or gin to drink in the mean time. I bet at 5 years this will be really nice if it lasts that long. Normally I find I tend to like 12-18 year old Canadian whiskies so I know I am in for the long haul.

B

[Jimbo]

Yep, the more patience the merrier. I just uncasked 2012 batch of apple brandy last weekend

The trick is to brew like a madman in the beginning so you have plenty of stocks on the shelf. It's a simple math problem, if you brew 10 times more than you drink for 3 months you have 30 months worth of hooch. Then you can slow down and brew at your drinking pace, and you'll always be drinking something two and a half years old. In theory anyway, in practice it never works out so nice

[Jimbo]

The titty twister in that math problem of course is that you can't drink two and a half year old anything until two and a half years have gone by, so you have to work that in there too. But you can drink something a month older every month while you're passing time

[bitter]

LOL ya.. I have 20g fermenting right now.. 10g ujssm and 10g of wineos... both almost there and clearing.. so If I can do 20 ever 2 weeks... should get me started I'm gusing about %50 yield so using 16kg per 2 weeks thats 416KG of sugar for the year... or about 381 * .5 of 60% stock being aged so about 190L of 60% as a guess.. That will get me a good head start

B

[Jimbo]

That's a lot of sugar head lol, why not try an AG

[Jimbo]

Another unfortunate twist in this continuum story is if you brew 10 times faster in the beginning, you end up with ten times more shite than stuff you're happier with later after you learned a few things.

[bitter]

I think were are thread jacking... ooops.... Sorry T-Pee

Yeah AG is in the plans once fall harvest start but that's late up as fairly far north For example apples are not till about mid aug - sept depending on the apple.

Corn is like October November... Oats and wheat are earlier..

B

[Jimbo]

Hell no, I'm talking about oaking and aging . October is apple season in these parts

[T-Pee]

Phht. Don't apologize. Gibb's Rule #6, ya know.

Jimbo, here's how I spent my evening: Sittin' on the front porch of our new home, yakkin' with Corene on the phone about the world in general and sippin' on a few ounces of your apple brandy. Life is good.

tp

[corene1]

Well since you are sitting on the porch sipping apple brandy I have a thought I want you all to think about since this is an oaking and aging thread. I was thinking today. Don't laugh it happens occasionally, We all talk about how many Sq. Inches of oak per quart we use. and it dawned on me. What about the shape of the wood? If I use a piece of oak that is 1inch thick by 2 inch by 4 inches long I have 28 Sq.inches of surface area and 8 cubic inches of wood .If I use a piece that is 1/2 inch thick by 2 inch by 5 inch I only have 27 sq. inches of surface area and 5 cubic inches of wood. Would the thicker piece of oak impart more flavor into the spirit than the thinner piece even at very close to the same amount of surface area? It seems like it would to me since the thinner piece would saturate faster and actually have less volume of wood to draw flavors from. A barrel has only one surface in contact with the wood while a chunk is completely immersed in the liquid extracting flavors from all surfaces. Just a thought.