My infected Rum

[kiwi Bruce]

Perhaps I have too romantic ideas of a farmers life.

It's funny, the worst stinking thing I ever smelled, was while I was in Germany...ein mistwagon ... in English it's a liquid manure wagon...it sprays cow poop tea on the fields...the pong is beyond belief ! but, keeping to the tread, one has to wonder what amazing bacteria might be at work in a good cow poop tea...

[raketemensch]

Perhaps I have too romantic ideas of a farmers life.

It's funny, the worst stinking thing I ever smelled, was while I was in Germany...ein mistwagon ... in English it's a liquid manure wagon...it sprays cow poop tea on the fields...the pong is beyond belief ! but, keeping to the tread, one has to wonder what amazing bacteria might be at work in a good cow poop tea...

Amazing enough to create psilocybin, right?

[der wo]

Perhaps I have too romantic ideas of a farmers life.

It's funny, the worst stinking thing I ever smelled, was while I was in Germany...ein mistwagon ... in English it's a liquid manure wagon...it sprays cow poop tea on the fields...the pong is beyond belief ! but, keeping to the tread, one has to wonder what amazing bacteria might be at work in a good cow poop tea...

Unfortunately there is much urea in it, which forms toxic ethyl carbamate. Otherwise I would have tried it out already for sure...

[papapro]

Der Wo:
Would campten tablets work to the wine makers were adding to the wine.

papapro

[der wo]

You mean instead of sulphuric acid? No. Campden tablets is something totally different. If it is impossible for you to get concentrated sulphuric acid in your region, you can use battery acid. It's normally 37% sulphuric acid and water. Look on the bottle before you buy.

[papapro]

Der Wo:
This is an excelent thread so far fr pH control I was using sea shells but I noticed that at the end of the
run when getting tails the taste is awfull I never had that before. But now since I learn soda and acid
and a specialy acid my next ferment would be controlled by those two.

I am going to get some sulfuric acid today

I think that sea shells adding to ferment some organic compouds and when heated for long time such as spirit run
somehow reacts. I read also the links for use sulfuric acid in brandy to bust esters. Excellent reading.

Thanks for shering your knowledge and experiments.

Keep up good work.

Papapro

[kiwi Bruce]

I read also the links for use sulfuric acid in brandy to bust esters. Papapro

Papapro where did you read this...here on HD ?

[papapro]

I do not remember buy i recently followed Der Wo thread or some other on esters and found these notes.

PapaPro

[der wo]

Yes. Thanks. I already had forgotten this...
I mentioned it here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... c#p7482358

[RedwoodHillBilly]

I'm not sure what you mean by "bust esters". Reducing the ph, especially with sulfuric acid will increase esters (reference Fischer esterification). Increasing ph will tend to reduce esters converting them back into the parent alcohol, and an acid which will react with the base to create a salt and water.

So if you want more esters add acid, less esters add a base.

[papapro]

yes I ment to increase esters bust= increase.

Papapro

[RedwoodHillBilly]

yes I ment to increase esters bust= increase.

Papapro

Ok, language difference. I assumed that bust meant to decrease i.e. to destroy.

[papapro]

Billy OK I missspelled the word I should use boost.
Sorry
PapaPro

[papapro]

You mean instead of sulphuric acid? No. Campden tablets is something totally different. If it is impossible for you to get concentrated sulphuric acid in your region, you can use battery acid. It's normally 37% sulphuric acid and water. Look on the bottle before you buy.

Der Wo:
I just was looking ay MSDS datasheets for car battery acid and found this reference, there is also along with sulfuric acid, lead arsenicand other stuff which I would not like to use, Also I would advise HD to add to the list What not to use.

I have found product and now looking for MSDS to compare the contents.

PapaPro

[RedwoodHillBilly]

You mean instead of sulphuric acid? No. Campden tablets is something totally different. If it is impossible for you to get concentrated sulphuric acid in your region, you can use battery acid. It's normally 37% sulphuric acid and water. Look on the bottle before you buy.

Der Wo:
I just was looking ay MSDS datasheets for car battery acid and found this reference, there is also along with sulfuric acid, lead arsenicand other stuff which I would not like to use, Also I would advise HD to add to the list What not to use.

I have found product and now looking for MSDS to compare the contents.

PapaPro

That MSDS is for the complete battery, not just the acid. So it's probably a good idea not to drop a car battery in your low wines.

[papapro]

still woul not trust it

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Here is a MSDS for battery acid from CenturyYuasa. It contains H2SO4 + H2O

BATTERY-FLUID,-ACID.pdf

(483.78 KiB) Downloaded 108 times

[papapro]

Thanks Billy this one is OK but the one I looked has differnt ingredience it is wise
before using any product look for the MSDS info.

PapaPro

[RedwoodHillBilly]

The MSDS that you referenced was for the whole battery. That is why it had 65% lead, 1% antimony (the plates), 8% polypropylene (the case). The MSDS that I referenced was just for the acid. I agree that I would check the MSDS for the battery acid that one was thinking about using, but I'll bet that most (if not all) will be just sulfuric acid and water.

[der wo]

A lead battery contains lead. Like RedwoodHillbilly wrote, don't drop a battery in your mash.

[der wo]

I now did a few little experiments about where sulphuric acid works as an "ester amplifier" and where not:

Basically I mixed small amounts of different ingredients with a bit drinking strength alcohol and filled it in two jars. One jar got one drop sulphuric acid, the other not. Then I tried to smell differences. The ingredients were apple juice, port wine, malted barley, rye wholemeal flour and fresh peach with skin.

Generally it worked with all ingredients. The strongest rise of fruitiness I noticed with the rye flour and the peach.
But I noticed also, that this effect is only temporarily. When I waited a few days longer and sniffed once in a while, the sulphuric acid treated jars smelled less and less. The reason / my mistake was obvious: Too small amounts in too large jars (80ml jars, each filled with 10-20ml only). All volatile esters were gone through my nose after a few sniffs.

That's why I think there is a problem with using sulphuric acid, which I didn't take into account yet: Esters can get aired out, acids not or less. So perhaps it is not very intelligent, to add sulphuric acid from the beginning of the fermentation, because most esters will get blown out the airlock. And then we have a wash with less carboxylic acids, than we would have without using sulphuric acid, and probably less esters in the spirit.
There is the same problem, but perhaps less, when we add sulphuric acid to a dunder pit, which has already much ethanol or other alcohols in it. Or when we add sulphuric acid to a fermented wash and then let it open for a few days before distilling.
The method of adding infected dunder to low wines and then adding sulphuric acid seems the most efficient way again. But since my last run I don't think efficiency is such important, because with sulfuric acid it's easy possible now to get much more esters than digestible.

[Shine0n]

do the esters lower when distilled or have you found that magic spot where you keep alot of those esters after distillation?
Sadly I haven't had the time yet to experiment with this YET due to work but is on the hit list next year when weather is hot again.

could you add to the ferment and not low wines or dunder to achieve the same thing? Just curious

Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

could you add to the ferment and not low wines or dunder to achieve the same thing? Just curious Shine0n

This is the direction I'm taking. The basis for this :- a duel fermentation running simultaneously, was laid out by Arroyo in the work he did on Puerto Rican Rum. It's backed up by the documents on brandy making, that this is also the practice with Brandy as well. With some of the Single Malt Scotch distiller's running their ferments for up to 90 hours, it's possible that this is also being done here also. Early days yet...we'll see what becomes of it.

[zapata]

Just a bit of related trivia I found fascinating though not directly ester related. So with the mixed fermentation Arroyo reports faster fermentation too, not just ester production. He also did experiments determining the fermentation improvements are from bacteria-yeast communication, NOT something chemical like feeding yeast or producing a nutrient. Pure yeast was faster if it was separated by glass from pure bacteria than either having no bacteria nearby or having it separated by an opaque barrier. Apparently bacteria can use light signals to tell the yeast to hurry up. Kinda mind blowing to me.
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/rum-mi ... io-photon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

But to bring it back on topic, perhaps higher bacterial levels contribute to faster runs even in say a scotch distillery compared to home distillers. Even the long fermentations in scotland are about 90 hours, faster than most home brewers. Because they have a bigger bacterial disco ball cheering them on?

[kiwi Bruce]

HDer's on the cutting edge of Bio-science....your right Zap, mind blowing, absolutely mind blowing. Arroyo's disco party...a rum rave!

[der wo]

I have read somewhere, that yeast can work better together with bacterias, especially vinegar bacterias. And allegedly that's the reason why yeast create esters (or acids). Esters attract insects who carry the bacterias.

[der wo]

could you add to the ferment and not low wines or dunder to achieve the same thing? Just curious

I don't have found anything really tried and true, because the sulphuric acid changed the game very late.
But I can write up what I think up to now could be the pros and cons of at what time adding dunder and sulphuric acid:

Adding infected dunder before fermentation:
pros: the bacterias can work for a few days, while many things change continuously in their environment. Many different environments -> many different reactions and flavors? And it starts with 0%abv, a very healthy environment.
cons: Risky. Not very efficient, because the abv is too low for a strong esterification. And at least with a all or high molasses wash the SG rises using dunder, and yeast doesn't like a high SG. You can cure it with using less fresh molasses or less sugar or more water, but then you have an even lower abv and lower esterification.

Adding infected dunder before stripping:
pros: relatively safe.
cons: Not very efficient, because the abv is too low for a strong esterification. And adding dunder dilutes the abv further.

Adding infected dunder to the low wines:
pros: totally safe. Extreme efficient because of the high abv.
cons: The bacterias die immediately. The acids of the dunder turn to esters by a chemical reaction, that's all. I am not sure if this is everything or if there is something missing.

When adding sulphuric acid?
Because esters are very volatile, I think just before distilling. Before the stripping and before the spirit run. Or if you add it earlier, store it well sealed.

[papapro]

Last weekend I read the whole arroyo patent on heavy rumes, It states thatbackset/dunder is dropped to the pit and has low concentration of sugars probably those unfermentable and this creates wash of 3.5 % max.

Also he states that ph level has to be at 5.6-5.6 at that level incectins are possible. Also the patent states that
the dunder could be used at the begining or with low wines. there is mention low wines are @ 40% and then deluted. This leads me to the acides mixed with low wines at 40% create esters.

It was very interesting read.

This guy was real pioneer.

Regards
PapaPro

[der wo]

Last weekend I read the whole arroyo patent on heavy rumes, It states thatbackset/dunder is dropped to the pit and has low concentration of sugars probably those unfermentable and this creates wash of 3.5 % max.

...there is mention low wines are @ 40% and then deluted.

Could you quote it, papapro? I didn't find it in the pdf. I searched for the numbers "3.5" and "40" and didn't find it. And it doesn't sound right for me. I don't think a dunder pit has 3.5% alcohol. And I don't think they dilute low wines. Or perhaps, but with dunder, not with water.

[papapro]

Der wo there is a couple of his pattents I read this one.

https://www.google.com/patents/US2386924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow