Some linguistics for non-linguists

[Birrofilo]

@HNDB

It's very old, there is a song by Gershwin, Let's Call the Whole Thing Off, it probably is a colloquial-familiar-uncultivated form which wouldn't be used many years ago in a formal cirmustance but it gained more and more acceptance and paved its way into more formal contexts. Never heard a British speaker talk with that kind of pronounciation, I think it's peculiarly American although I wouldn't know how to place it geografically (maybe more West-coast?).

A similar phenomenon IMHO is evident in British English, the trend toward the disappearance of non-accented vowels, e.g. "democracy" pronounced "d'mocr'cy", which is very youngish-ignorantish way of talking and was not heard in a BBC news program thirty years ago, or at University or in a documentary, and now it's all over the place.

[HDNB]

Thank you, Seabass!

You watch movies at home but you can watch or see a movie at the theater.

So, talking about that theater... seeing means definitely act of watching, not going out (as necessity of walking or driving), right?

seeing something is something that happens in your mind. it is the understanding of the information, notably the visual information perceived by your visual cortex...but it can also simply mean "understand"
watching is usually synonymous with looking. It is an act...I am looking at the girl, i am watching the girl. looking implies passivity whereas the the subject is simply intentionally observed. Watching the girl is perhaps a more active activity, where you may have something sinister in mind, watching for an opportunity.... or more noble, as in watching over or protecting the girl.

So, you see, you can see a person by looking at them without watching them and you can look at a person without seeing them but it is impossible to watch a person without looking at them and actually seeing them.

Do you see?

going out to see a movie really is an "old" saying, in Canada anyway. It's still used but i'd bet only by 40+yr olds.
I'd suggest it was coined ages ago when the technology was new and people did not fully understand how the images were implanted in their minds. and seeing a "moving picture show" was akin to your mind's eye recalling a dream so you actually "saw" the image in your mind. Likely those first watchers got a lot deeper understanding of the film because their brain was more engaged in the activity that people today who are simply inundated with video from all angles.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Only a familiar acquaintance or close family member could offend me, if such a thing were possible even then.

Same.

To most of us in the west, the term “confederate” is predominately associated with the American Civil War.

Same association, but you are right: the history lessons I had at the secondary school were all out to tell us about that "agriculturally-backward rebellious South standing for the ugly slavery"... so my wife that read at least "Gone with the Wind" when she was a child... she could probably know even more than me.

It's probable that your perception has been restricted or tainted by the type of mass media from the west that you've been exposed to.

You know better, of course. On the other hand, Mr.Crawford himself calls this accent kind of traditional or retro or primary etc.

Well, back to my question from the edge of politics and ethnology... was this guy just showing off? Or his manner does have to do with any primary, original, first settling pioneer-ish etc. I wonder, where did this dude get his manner of speaking?

Yes I realize that Leo Tolstoy is greatly respected in the literary world.

Haha, we had to read "War and Peace" at school... but 90% did not do that

[VLAGAVULVIN]

This stuff is linguistically relevant to an Italian, such as yours truly, because this relative pronoun ambiguity is not resolved in Italian, unless you spend words and breath to dissipate it.

Ehm... quello vs. che, no?..

Lo studente che hai ascoltato ieri è molto preparato. And Lo studente quello hai ascoltato ieri è molto preparato. Non sono sicuro se possibile to say like that: quello. But historically, it's the same which / welche (and so on)...

[VLAGAVULVIN]

when young women explain how impordant their buddons are...

Lol. To be honest, there shouldn't be [d] and should be voiced flapping [ɾ]. Which is more or less close to the modern [r] of Jap(anese).

For my non-native ears, there was Metallica's "nothing else maDers" on their album in 1991. But 30 years later Mr.Hatfield got started making it more and more like alveolar flap [ɾ] during the live shows. Or even a glo'al stop is heard there. Looks like the ole fella changes his tongue, following to the youngster ladies with their smaller buttons.

[Birrofilo]

This stuff is linguistically relevant to an Italian, such as yours truly, because this relative pronoun ambiguity is not resolved in Italian, unless you spend words and breath to dissipate it.

Ehm... quello vs. che, no?..

Lo studente che hai ascoltato ieri è molto preparato. And Lo studente quello hai ascoltato ieri è molto preparato. Non sono sicuro se possibile to say like that: quello. But historically, it's the same which / welche (and so on)...

You cannot say that in Italian. You could say: Lo studente, quello che hai ascolato ieri, è molto preparato, The student, the one whom you listened to yesterday, is etc. Quello is a demonstrative adjective or pronoun (not a relative pronoun), so it's "restrictive" in any case.

In English, "that" can be both a relative pronoun (always with a restrictive meaning) and a demonstrative pronoun.

[contrahead]

“Hey ole Confeds, was this vid's accent just showing off or could have to do with? Abt. 150 yrs. ago, lol... “
-------
“Have listened to him twice. To get any sense in a topic that I was always quite familiar with”.
-------
“Have found a native speaking guy with the accent close to same as above. Or not?..”
-“a cowboy speaking the lang of great grandpa confederates*”
--------
“I was looking for some guys which could inspire that Russian fella from the previous vid.”
--------
… “was this guy just showing off? Or his manner does have to do with any primary, original, first settling pioneer-ish etc. I wonder, where did this dude get his manner of speaking?”

I think I perceive at least two separate questions here. The first: Is this guy's accent or style of speech rustic, old or antiquated? The second: (perhaps) Does this guy's manner, demeanor or attitude, seem cocky, too confident or too self assured ? Answers = no to both questions.

This video is named “Почему английские названия городов ближе к корням” and it is but one of many that appear to be advertisements for the English language studies school in Moscow named - Virginia Bēowulf.

The name of this school is odd enough in its own right. I might surmise (correctly or incorrectly) that the name was derived from a book written by Robert Myers Ph.D. who was an acclaimed author and distinguished Professor of English literature and whom also wrote: From Beowulf To Virginia Woolf: An Astounding And Wholly Unauthorized History Of English Literature.

Beowulf was an ancient Old English poem; over a thousand years old anyway. Adeline Virginia Woolf on the other hand was an English, modernist 20th century author who drowned herself in 1941. She was involved in the women's rights movement (a feminist), a co-founder of the Bloomsbury Group and with her husband's help created a publishing house known as the Hogarth Press. In her writings Virginia adopted several aesthetic conventions - from Russian literature.

On its web page the Virginia Bēowulf school suggest that among other things it is able to teach its students to speak like Martin Luther King or to write like Dickens. Well, to speak like Martin Luther King Jr. is a questionable objective to begin with if your a linguist. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Baptist minister born and raised in the heart of the South (Atlanta, Georgia). Blacks from the South have always had the heaviest accents and the most unique slang in Southern speech. King was a opportunistic troublemaker but at least he encouraged civil disobedience without violence. King's oratory style was hardly original or unique for anyone familiar with the sermons delivered by other Southern Baptist preachers during that era. Charles Dickens was a great novelist and ardent social critic of the Victorian era. Dickens' works were often filled with detestable characters who lived in squalor or in otherwise unpleasant social conditions.

So I would say that “this dude's manner of speaking” has been carefully cultivated by an institution that has chosen some very odd representatives as examples to learn the English language from.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

You cannot say that in Italian. You could say: Lo studente, quello che hai ascolato ieri, è molto preparato, The student, the one whom you listened to yesterday, is etc.

Thanks for correcting me Yeah, questo "quello" è rather interesting and polysemantic thing.

I think I perceive at least two separate questions here. The first: Is this guy's accent or style of speech rustic, old or antiquated? The second: (perhaps) Does this guy's manner, demeanor or attitude, seem cocky, too confident or too self assured ? Answers = no to both questions.
...
So I would say that “this dude's manner of speaking” has been carefully cultivated by an institution that has chosen some very odd representatives as examples to learn the English language from.

OK, I see it more clear now. And thanks for your carefully prepared answer

[The Baker]

Teachers give some strange examples.

My Japanese exchange student was told that if your tooth hurts you have tooth pain.
I have NEVER heard or said that, the term is 'toothache'.

Geoff

[VLAGAVULVIN]

My Japanese exchange student was told that if your tooth hurts you have tooth pain.
I have NEVER heard or said that, the term is 'toothache'.

Haha, I could make the same lapse easily. I know of headache (as it's more commonly used) but the toothache as a point of conversation is not so often, eh? But it may happen for some native speakers to use that tooth pain in a serious way... maybe, somewhere in the Orkney Islands.

By the way, and if you guys have a lot of free time. I'm not Chinese so, there are 23 full and natural matches of 24 for me here:



Aaand,,, what's your guess about me as a rude Russian (or Ukrainian or Lithuanian or other post-Soviet person)?

[VLAGAVULVIN]

going out to see a movie really is an "old" saying, in Canada anyway. It's still used but i'd bet only by 40+yr olds.
I'd suggest it was coined ages ago when the technology was new and people did not fully understand how the images were implanted in their minds. and seeing a "moving picture show" was akin to your mind's eye recalling a dream so you actually "saw" the image in your mind. Likely those first watchers got a lot deeper understanding of the film because their brain was more engaged in the activity that people today who are simply inundated with video from all angles.

Yeah, over 30 years ago at our English lessons we were taught to "watch a new film", not to "see" it.

Lol, and 2 my offsprings just look at the movies (or U-tube vids, or tiktok sh!t) having no idea how to see them

[The Baker]

My Japanese exchange student was told that if your tooth hurts you have tooth pain.
I have NEVER heard or said that, the term is 'toothache'.

Haha, I could make the same lapse easily. I know of headache (as it's more commonly used) but the toothache as a point of conversation is not so often, eh? But it may happen for some native speakers to use that tooth pain in a serious way... maybe, somewhere in the Orkney Islands.

By the way, and if you guys have a lot of free time. I'm not Chinese so, there are 23 full and natural matches of 24 for me here:



Aaand,,, what's your guess about me as a rude Russian (or Ukrainian or Lithuanian or other post-Soviet person)?

Actually the toothache episode happened when our student visited a few years later.
She was working as a dental hygienist (some sort of dentist's helper).
And the tooth pain expression was in her training manual!

Geoff

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Hey native-speaking folks...

May I ask of your choice (1, 2 or 3), please?

1. It's a titmouse / pl. titmice.
2. It's a titmouse / pl. titmouses.
3. Wtf? It's the chickadee.

Thanks

[NormandieStill]

Errr. I think it's a 4. It's a great tit. Which would be great tits (pl). Which is something to say with some care when in company.

[The Baker]

Love great tits.

Geoff

[Yonder]

Errr. I think it's a 4. It's a great tit. Which would be great tits (pl). Which is something to say with some care when in company.

Benny Hill! Explaining to a friend “tits like grapefruits!” And then explaining how he put a half of a grapefruit in his garden…

[CoogeeBoy]

Hey native-speaking folks...

May I ask of your choice (1, 2 or 3), please?

sinica.jpg

1. It's a titmouse / pl. titmice.
2. It's a titmouse / pl. titmouses.
3. Wtf? It's the chickadee.

Thanks

Vlaga,
This is a difficult one but I am 51% certain it has to be Titmouses for plural. The name of the species is Titmouse, but Titmice has found its way into the vernacular so it is acceptable.

From the book: "100 Birds and How They Got Their Names."

The name “titmouse” comes from the Old Icelandic word "titr" meaning “small” and the Anglo-Saxon mase, meaning “small bird.”
"Titr mase" became "Titmouse".

The "mouse" has nothing to do with mice (or rats etc). It should be titmouses.

Did you know that the collective noun for a group of titmice is a "banditry"?

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Hi CoogeeBoy and thanks for your entry.

The name “titmouse” comes from the Old Icelandic word "titr" meaning “small” and the Anglo-Saxon mase, meaning “small bird.”
"Titr mase" became "Titmouse".

That's it. Talking of the modern Scandinavian, it has to do with Danish "mejse" and not "mus".

But aren't the chikadees more habitual to be used than titmouses in North America?

Did you know that the collective noun for a group of titmice is a "banditry"?

He-he. Actually, I didn't. But this fits well with the behavior of titmouses, sparrows, etc.

[CoogeeBoy]

Apparently the "banditry" comes from the markings around their eyes.

All good fun!

[VLAGAVULVIN]

da helluva pile ev tits

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Just a cool, in every way, vid
Hope, Canadians would love it

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Well, folks... how would you like "fare now well my father" instead of "farewell now my father"?

1. Is the first example easily associated with the second?

2. Is the first one clear at all?

Thanks.

[NormandieStill]

Well, folks... how would you like "fare now well my father" instead of "farewell now my father"?

1. Is the first example easily associated with the second?

2. Is the first one clear at all?

Thanks.

The first doesn't work. The word farewell meaning goodbye (often with a certain finality in modern English) and to "fare well" would be to be doing OK. "Fare thee well my father" would be a nice old-fashioned way of saying goodbye.

It's the "now" that doesn't really work. It's not clear what you're trying to say.

Hope that helps.

[The Baker]

Well, folks... how would you like "fare now well my father" instead of "farewell now my father"?

1. Is the first example easily associated with the second?

This seems VERY old-fashioned, obsolete. I have been reading some novels set in the 1300s
and it would not be out of place there.

2. Is the first one clear at all? Yes, very clear. Likely to be said at parting and is a wish that Dad
'fares well'; travels well and has good fortune.
And I agree that 'now' could be redundant but it could just mean 'this is what I wish for you now'.

"farewell now my father"?
A bit 'stilted', formal, old fashioned but not old like the other.

Farewell would be more or less Goodbye (itself probably a corruption of the VERY old 'God be with ye), almost certainly a corruption of the older Fare thee (you) well.

Probably the Spanish Adios (goodbye) is somewhat similar, a corruption of the much older A Dios (Go) with God. (?)
Or the much more formal and maybe seldom used now, Vaya con Dios, literally Go with God.
Thanks.

Or something like that.

Geoff

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Hope that helps.

Sure, that does!

"Fare thee well my father" would be a nice old-fashioned way of saying goodbye.

OK, got it

It's the "now" that doesn't really work. It's not clear what you're trying to say.

Was tryna check if it works the same way like in Swedish or not
[far nu väl min fader (kinda old-fashioned poetry, too)]

Farewell would be more or less Goodbye (itself probably a corruption of the VERY old 'God be with ye), almost certainly a corruption of the older Fare thee (you) well.

Probably the Spanish Adios (goodbye) is somewhat similar, a corruption of the much older A Dios (Go) with God. (?)
Or the much more formal and maybe seldom used now, Vaya con Dios, literally Go with God.

Yupp. Rather transparently, "well" is linked to Vels, Veles or Velnias. The god of cattle and material wealth, who became a devil during the Christianization of the Slavs )) Same / common IE-heritage.

With God = s Bogom. Usually we say "with God" not at parting, but at the beginning of some important and difficult / prolonged process. Sorta "let's go" ("poyehali") but with a bigger expression of hope for a good ending. With the God's help.

[The Baker]

Interesting.

Thanks, Vlag and all.

Geoff

[VLAGAVULVIN]

My pleasure, Sir

[Saltbush Bill]

tryna

Now there's an interesting word, its used a lot here in Australia.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

tryna

Now there's an interesting word, its used a lot here in Australia.

Instead of "trying to", innit?..

[Saltbush Bill]

Zactly.