High Level Overview of PID like Control

[6 Row Joe]

Mars, I'm reading up on them now. I still don't fully grasp what the I and D do. But it will come together in my mind in due time. I'm not a smart man, but not that stupid either.

It would help if someone using a pid would lay out in detail how he or she runs their setup. Where the temp probes are, what pid, what fiddling is required during the run. Preferably with notes from a real run.

I'm kinda dissapointed cayars isn't willing to do this, it'd help me out tremendously to learn how they work.

Here's a lot of videos from George at Barley and Hops about PID controllers. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCatCie ... ?query=pid

This is a specific introduction video about PID's form George. Maybe seeing a video and hearing it explained frome someone else will help you understand it easier.

[6 Row Joe]

Mars, I'm reading up on them now. I still don't fully grasp what the I and D do. But it will come together in my mind in due time. I'm not a smart man, but not that stupid either.

It would help if someone using a pid would lay out in detail how he or she runs their setup. Where the temp probes are, what pid, what fiddling is required during the run. Preferably with notes from a real run.

I'm kinda dissapointed cayars isn't willing to do this, it'd help me out tremendously to learn how they work.

And this video gets into the meat and potatoes.

[charcoal]

I ran my PID setup based on George's video and got good results.

The video is in phone and is 5.1gb so it is taking some time to transfer to my PC.

Also, I realized that my face and distinctive T shirt can be seen in the glass panes so I need to edit the video. It will be uploaded somewhere in few hours (I hope).

If you already have a CM Reflux still and are willing to risk 50 AUD/35 USD then please let me know.

[NZChris]

When they talk about it turning on and off, probable not a good way to explain it but it’s in milliseconds.

With mine, I can select 1-100 second heating cycles. Milliseconds are not available. Out of the box, mine flash the element 60 times a minute.

The last time I ran one, it was controlling a hot plate element that was not designed to run with a simmerstat, but had been controlled with a cleverly designed switch that selects between three internal elements to run in series and parallel to give constant heat. These elements last for years because they are seldom switched off and on with normal use, but hook them up to a PID like I did and you can expect metal fatigue to kill them much earlier. I already knew that, but thought I'd get away with it if I only did it this one time

The only time I've blown a hot water element in a still during a run, it was being controlled by a simmerstat, which does the same thing as a PID, cycling the power off and on.

[charcoal]

When they talk about it turning on and off, probable not a good way to explain it but it’s in milliseconds.

With mine, I can select 1-100 second heating cycles. Milliseconds are not available. Out of the box, mine flash the element 60 times a minute.

The last time I ran one, it was controlling a hot plate element that was not designed to run with a simmerstat, but had been controlled with a cleverly designed switch that selects between three internal elements to run in series and parallel to give constant heat. These elements last for years because they are seldom switched off and on with normal use, but hook them up to a PID like I did and you can expect metal fatigue to kill them much earlier. I already knew that, but thought I'd get away with it if I only did it this one time

The only time I've blown a hot water element in a still during a run, it was being controlled by a simmerstat, which does the same thing as a PID, cycling the power off and on.

You are in NZ, so your A/C supply is 50HZ. That 120 number is for US/Japan and maybe Canada.

If the device is arranging/rearranging elements then there is maybe 9 possible combinations. That is not a very fine control.

If you have 3x 1000 watt heater elements then you can get max 3000 watt (When in parallel) and if you wire all of them in series then it would be I guess 333 watts.

I make no claims for longevity of this setup. But if people who made this element have designed it for use with a dimmer then this has to last a very long time. I know lot of people are using dimmers/SCRs/Triac for still control from a long time on this and other forums. A Triac is an SCR. Dibosh is selling a still with a PID in built in it. Kegland sells a thermostat based control box and so do others.

This is a quote from another thread (Thumper375). Nearly everyone uses an SCR based controller without issues.

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admin edit: deleted unwelcome vendor links. Refer to rules if you post links: Links to these sites are not welcome here: HILL TOP COPPER OR DEEP SOUTH STILLS, Powder River Copper works, copperflutes.com, Stilldrinkin, realmccoymoonshinestills, Rkhelp, Hillbilly Stills, visionstills, woodshed distilling, Agenzymes.com. These sellers have a poor reputations regarding service, workmanship or both

[Avo]

These elements last for years because they are seldom switched off and on with normal use, but hook them up to a PID like I did and you can expect metal fatigue to kill them much earlier.

The only time I've blown a hot water element in a still during a run, it was being controlled by a simmerstat, which does the same thing as a PID, cycling the power off and on.

what your saying is exactly right. With a pid your putting the full surge of current into the element; an example is when you have a light bulb blow suddenly by repeatedly swithing it on and off; whereby with a rheostat your being kind to your element with a continuous up or down flow of current. That's why I would never use a pid to control my boiler element. Anywhere else is fine, I use one pid to control the temp' of three 25 L fermentations at a time it keeps the average temp' exactly where I want it.
In general sensitive electronics with on / off cycles, have smoothing capacitors which are used as storage/resevoirs devices to smooth out the current to the component to stop it blowing. Maybe there is a pid device out there that has smoothing/start up technology to avoid the full power surge of many Kw's to the element. Go with a rhesotat type voltage controller, it's more fun to be 'hands on' and they work an absolute treat.

[charcoal]

These elements last for years because they are seldom switched off and on with normal use, but hook them up to a PID like I did and you can expect metal fatigue to kill them much earlier.

The only time I've blown a hot water element in a still during a run, it was being controlled by a simmerstat, which does the same thing as a PID, cycling the power off and on.

what your saying is exactly right. With a pid your putting the full surge of current into the element; an example is when you have a light bulb blow suddenly by repeatedly swithing it on and off; whereby with a rheostat your being kind to your element with a continuous up or down flow of current. That's why I would never use a pid to control my boiler element. Anywhere else is fine, I use one pid to control the temp' of three 25 L fermentations at a time it keeps the average temp' exactly where I want it.
In general sensitive electronics with on / off cycles, have smoothing capacitors which are used as storage/resevoirs devices to smooth out the current to the component to stop it blowing. Maybe there is a pid device out there that has smoothing/start up technology to avoid the full power surge of many Kw's to the element. Go with a rhesotat type voltage controller, it's more fun to be 'hands on' and they work an absolute treat.

There are NO rheostats for 2000w heaters. They are ALL SCR based. An AC heater is designed to be switched off 100 times a second.

[NZChris]

I used to use an incandescent lamp under my fermenters, but they kept blowing, even though controlled with a lowly thermostat and weren't switched all that often. It's bloody annoying when you wake up on a frosty morning to find the heating has been off most of the night. Now, when I use lamps, I wire two in series to take the stress off the filaments. I haven't had a lamp blow since.

When I use a PID for my makeup water, I always control the power through my SCR to take the stress off the element.

If controlling the elements in my main boiler with a PID, I have them connected in series so that they are each only drawing 1/4 of their rated Watts.

[cayars]

Chris you should really look into how SCRs work. It's a fast proportional control that switches on and off very quickly.

https://www.avatarinstruments.com/guide ... -controls/ has a decent read/explanation of them.

Quickly switching electric on/off REDUCES thermal shock to heating elements.

You're series connection might be a bad idea depending on the components being used.

[NZChris]

Do you think my knuckles drag on the ground? Charcoal posted that on page 2 for those who didn't already understand it.
viewtopic.php?f=85&t=77252&start=30#p7592295

[jagj5]

Where can I find and purchase a PID controller for the still I am getting ready to buy?

As asked in another thread here is a high level overview of how/why some people use PID like controllers. I hesitate to even post this as there seems to be many PID haters. So I'll say everyone is welcome to post but let's try and keep it civil please! If you disagree, please state why something doesn't/can't work but keep in mind, this is what many people ALREADY do.

Let me explain the premise briefly without going into tons of details or the specifics of PID functionality and why some people like this type of control. Maybe this will help clear the air with a mile high overview.

1) You have control over raising boiler and vapor temps. You can not make things boil at a higher temp (nor do you want to) but you can monitor the present temp and CUT or LOWER heat to hold a temp or allow more heat so that the boil temp will rise on it's own. Thus you can control the boiling temp as it will never rise higher then the target. If you set a target temp of 173F it will supply electricity to the heating element to produce heat until it reaches that temp in a proportionate way. As it nears the target temp it will lower the heat being applied to hold that temp. It will not go higher than the target temp until the PID or controller changes set points or target temp.

You can not make the boil higher then physics allow it to be based on the alcohol content in the boiler but you can set a target and allow it to rise to that set point and can hold it until a new target is selected.

2) As the temperature being monitored approaches the set point the distillate will run slower and slower and eventually stop which is what we want to happen when temps levels off at a set point.

3) When you set a new set temp that is higher then the current boil temp, the PID or other similar controller will be adding more heat which will cause the still to produce again. The rate of flow is adjustable by ID functions but it's beyond this post.

4A) People using a rheostat type control find fault in #2 and #3 above as the still produces differently then they are used to and they can't hold a steady stream or drip rate which they expect. Thus to them PID control is "broken" or has problems.
4B) People using temperature monitoring and control (aka PID like device) want exactly #2 and #3 and DO NOT need a constant steady stream.

#4 is the source of most arguments or misunderstanding beside "can't control boiler temp" comments.

Why?

The person using the physics of the distillation process to their advantage knows that certain concentrations come out at different temperature ranges and makes the most use of this to their advantage. For example foreshots come off the still first and have the lowest boiling temp. Heads come off next with a bit higher temperature. Then Hearts come off with yet another temperature range, followed by tails which have the highest range of temperatures.

When you "force" a steady stream you are in fact smearing your alcohols (with reflux you can knock much of this back down). Now as an example with a PID you can set alarms and targets. So for example an audible alarm could sound at 170F followed by a target of 173F and an alarm. So when you hear the alarm you know foreshots are coming and can be ready to dump X amount as usual. Since the boiling temp is less than 173F heat is being applied and Heads will flow. As the temp nears 173F the stream or drips will subside until nothing is coming out as you don't allow the boil temp to rise. The maximum amount of heads have now been collected best that can be done without refluxing. Now a new target is set for Hearts and distillate will start to flow again into the new jar you just switched. When the boiler reaches a new target temp of say 204F or whatever you set it to, your Hearts will slow to a drip and then stop. You are finished the concentration of Hearts, can change jars and collect your tails with a new target of 212F.

This works like clockwork but can be fine tuned and adjusted to your style of running or spirit being distilled. For example a brandy might want late heads for flavor so 172F is used vs 173F for whiskey as the stop point of heads/hearts. In this case you want the late heads in your hearts (or keeper jars)! This is what is meant by "fine tuning". With the ability to set alarms at certain temp points you can set an alarm to notify you of transitional ranges. So you can collect in big containers, get to an alarm/transitional point, collect in small jars for later checking and then collect in big jars again until your next transition. Basically the transitions are heads to hearts and of course hearts to tails.

This is a DIFFERENT way of running a pot still, but in many ways is similar or will make some sense to those who reflux. The person who does refluxing will have no issue with stops in distillation to build up concentrations/compacting before starting again. This is a "poor mans" version of that on a pot still to separate as much as possible (within reason since it's a pot still) and stop as much smearing as possible between your transition jars. It of course is not doing any refluxing but the control of boiler temps helps to only allow the main concentration of alcohols out that said temperature will allow as dictated by physics. What it does is give you the cleanest cuts or transitions you can get on a pot still and allows you to make runs exactly the same time and time again assuming what's in the boiler is the same.

This works really well on SPIRIT runs when you strip to specific ABVs.

[Slow42]

I really can’t believe this posting has gone where it has. I think only a handful, a very small handful, know what their talking about. There’s been a lot of carp postings here by people who have no clue what their talking about. Cut and pasting information from the internet about the subject does not make you an expert you just spreads false information about electricity in general. Europe or Us the same rules apply about electricity! If you have no clue what your talking about other than cutting and pasting stop posting!!

[Slow42]

Jagj5 you can find what you want on Amazon. The cost about $30.00 for everything, parts only. Auberins.com for better quality and great customer service. There will cost more but its worth the extra money especially if you want to ask questions.

[acfixer69]

What part is it that you can't believe? BTW anyone can post there opinion and cut and paste is allowed. YOU don't get to tell anyone not to post. We MODS get to decide if it stays, but all get to post.

[Slow42]

And there in lies the problem! I’m prohibited from responding to you further! However I thought safety was of paramount importance here.

[charcoal]

Where can I find and purchase a PID controller for the still I am getting ready to buy?

Jag what is your still model? Apart from the PID you will need
Matching SCR
Matching Power connectors
Matching Sensor to thermowell hole.

[acfixer69]

You are not prohibited from posting anything you want to any post you want. If it's a rule breaker there will be action taken. WTF safety are you speaking off. This thread has drawn a great deal of attention so beware.

[LWTCS]

PID hater? Nope.
Endorsing PID as an optimal device for a distillation apparatus? Nope.

Plenty of thermostaticly controlled stills making good booze evidently? So says you.

[Saltbush Bill]

Slow42 you would do well to listen to what LWTCS has said.....he knows more about distilling booze and stills in general than you are ever likely to know.
You seem to have a whole heap of opinions on things for a fella who has never actually run a still of any sort yet.

[shadylane]

Do you think my knuckles drag on the ground?

Only when you climb out of the trees and attempt to be bipedal

[thecroweater]

@ cayers
Listen champ there are a few well know still designs VM -vapour management, LM - liquid Management, CM - coolant management and if ya like PM - power management (pot still), wonder why there is no temperature management still? Now I surely ain't no computer distiller for Exxon NASA but I can answer that question real quick. I find more than a few of your posts at best misleading and a forum is only as good as the information it contains, you have posted quite a few assertions as if fact and without demonstrating how or why said assertions are factual seem to have attempted to belittle and hinder any contrary opinion, experience and knowledge
@ slow49
I have also seen what appears to be a condescending and combative posts from you replying to member's valid opions and questions of these suggested methods.

My advise would be to stop dicking around and show with some tangible evidence how a PID controller can successfully run a still and what still it can run. I saw "a pot still yes" but didn't get the context, if you are suggesting you can run a (or specifically) pot still by temperature control you are off your chops.

[charcoal]

@ cayers
Listen champ there are a few well know still designs VM -vapour management, LM - liquid Management, CM - coolant management and if ya like PM - power management (pot still), wonder why there is no temperature management still? Now I surely ain't no computer distiller for Exxon NASA but I can answer that question real quick. I find more than a few of your posts at best misleading and a forum is only as good as the information it contains, you have posted quite a few assertions as if fact and without demonstrating how or why said assertions are factual seem to have attempted to belittle and hinder any contrary opinion, experience and knowledge
@ slow49
I have also seen what appears to be a condescending and combative posts from you replying to member's valid opions and questions of these suggested methods.

My advise would be to stop dicking around and show with some tangible evidence how a PID controller can successfully run a still and what still it can run. I saw "a pot still yes" but didn't get the context, if you are suggesting you can run a (or specifically) pot still by temperature control you are off your chops.

I use a temperature managed still. It is based on George's videos and Riku's book.

Riku says this on page 37 (reflux still):

CM
- More work to build (similar complexity level as with VM)
- Automated shutdown at the end (if so adjusted)
- Shutdown between heads - main run
- tails is achievable
- Reflux ratio increases towards the end (if cooling kept constant)
- Can be used for flavored drinks
- Controlled by adjustments of cooling capacity of the reflux condenser
- Alternative method, constant reflux cooling and control of heating power
- With water cooling, it's quite difficult to maintain a constant cooling effect,which makes adjustments less precise

He also said this'
There is also Power Management (PM), but I consider this as a sub case of CM.
His PM is for Reflux stills

I use fixed cooling and variable heating

My video is here

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=77285&p=7592704#p7592704

[Avo]

Go with a rhesotat type voltage controller, it's more fun to be 'hands on' and they work an absolute treat.

There are NO rheostats for 2000w heaters. They are ALL SCR based. An AC heater is designed to be switched off 100 times a second.

Charcoal
I stand corrected, I was wallowing in the past - my terminology was incorrect. My voltage controller is indeed a SCR
which I built into an ABS box with a cooling fan. It works very well.

[charcoal]

There are NO rheostats for 2000w heaters. They are ALL SCR based. An AC heater is designed to be switched off 100 times a second.

Charcoal
I stand corrected, I was wallowing in the past - my terminology was incorrect. My voltage controller is indeed a SCR
which I built into an ABS box with a cooling fan. It works very well.

SCR.jpg

NP! Do have a reflux still and want to try out Riku's Cooling Management still control method?

[cayars]

@ cayers
Listen champ there are a few well know still designs VM -vapour management, LM - liquid Management, CM - coolant management and if ya like PM - power management (pot still), wonder why there is no temperature management still?

All fuel and alcohol distillation takes place by temperature. Methanol for example is one of the first things to come off at low temps, followed by other foreshots components, then comes your heads at slightly higher temperatures. Then hearts come off next at higher temperatures, followed by tails. The key being each of these come off at progressively higher temperatures.

Big industrial continuous stills have multiple take-off points at different plate levels to take spirits at temperature. Each plate will have a different temperature. Same concept just handled differently.

All batch stills starts out with the boiler at a low temperature and works it's way up toward 100C/212F as it's depleted of alcohol. If YOU LEARN by logging where your hearts and tails come off the still, then you most certainly can use that temperature knowledge to your advantage as many of us do this. On a simple pot still for example you can set the target temp where your heads end/hearts start and get a clean transition. If you hold that temp the still will actually stop producing spirit (concentration of heads are taken). Then you can raise the target temp point and pull hearts. If you don't raise this target temperature the still will again slow down and stop producing and you have your hearts. Then when you raise the temperature again by raising your target temperature you will pull the tails. This is simply using the data you've logged in the past for your still to know where to set these target temps. You simply can not pull tails from a pot still if you don't allow the temperature to rise to where they come out!

On a reflux still you ALSO have the ability to control the temperature of the column in a similar way to control your fractions. Raise your cooling to lower the temperature in the column and you pull the earlier volatile alcohols first as you knock down the other alcohols that naturally want to come out at higher temperatures.

Check out step 9.
https://istillblog.com/2020/02/17/under ... he-istill/

Try looking at videos of iStills being ran and look at the menu systems. Do the same for the Genio stills. Both make use of taking your fractions by way of temperature regardless if ran in reflux or pot still mode. These stills and others mentioned are all temperature managed stills since temperature controls what is ALLOWED to come out of the still.

In using this information to your advantage (per op post) or information above, It really does not matter how you control the temperature to do this, only that you can control the temperature and/or monitor it accurate and have the logged data to make informed decisions from.

[Slow42]

Cayars that is an excellent explanation but for some reason many people disagree with what your saying. I assume what your writing if fact correct? Have you accomplished what your talking about on your personal equipment? I think it would be a benefit to your cause if you showed some of your results. Pictures aren’t necessary but just how do you do it. Please don’t take this as a condescending question/request!

[Tater]

Im ready to see it as well.Pics would help .So now if you want to keep posting on this site its put up or shut up time.

[HDNB]

your example of fuel is sorely misguided. temp plays a part in the cracking process...but they are called cat- crackers not fuel distillers -since cut and pastes demonstrate one's google prowess here:

In petrochemistry, petroleum geology and organic chemistry, cracking is the process whereby complex organic molecules such as kerogens or long-chain hydrocarbons are broken down into simpler molecules such as light hydrocarbons, by the breaking of carbon-carbon bonds in the precursors. The rate of cracking and the end products are strongly dependent on the temperature and presence of catalysts. Cracking is the breakdown of a large alkane into smaller, more useful alkenes. Simply put, hydrocarbon cracking is the process of breaking a long-chain of hydrocarbons into short ones. This process requires high temperatures.[1]

More loosely, outside the field of petroleum chemistry, the term "cracking" is used to describe any type of splitting of molecules under the influence of heat, catalysts and solvents, such as in processes of destructive distillation or pyrolysis.

(wow, i see why that works, do seem smarter to you guys? i feel smarter already. mmm...pyrolysis. I'm gonna use this at the next party, the chicks will dig it!)

part of the petro chemical plant's mandate would be operational efficiency. turning the 128MM Btu furnace off and on a 100 times a second is going to be the last thing on their minds. the only useful info there is they do draw from different trays. on a 10 story stack.

the istill example is ill informed. you don't write the code for Odin, so which temp he monitors on a continuous bases is not likely anything to do with setting a temperature to boil at and waiting for 10 hours for the last drop of acetone to leak out, moving the temp to 195 and waiting another 28 hours for the last drop of hearts to finally break free. i mean really, do you see a pro distiller taking 10 days to distil a 5000L charge???
I don't want to speak to his process (i don't write the code either) but there is a difference in "based on continuous temperature measurements...." and using a PID to control the temperature of the boil.

it's still about the right tool for the job. if you are making beer and you want to hold a temp on your mash, a PID would work well,arguably a PID could be used for distilling (if, practically speaking) you set the temp above the boil so stays "on" but why use a tool to do that, which was obviously designed for something else, does it not make sense to use the tool that is designed to stay "on"?...and if you are touting the misguided "hold 172* until all the methanol is out" idea, i would call that evapouration, not distillation.

since we are the "home distillers" site, not the "home evaporators" site. i don't see the sense in pursuing this particular PID idea as a way to benefit the membership.

since it's about bending language...you say hold boil temp...i say evaporation.

show us a build, show us data. show us time to go with the temps, show us of the operational efficiency and improvement of quality. I'm weary of the analogous google searches to make the language more palatable.
It's time to move from theorizing, show the hypothesis. Build an experiment, make it duplicatable so it can be peer reviewed. let's see the data.

[cayars]

Is it fact?
Good question that everyone can decide on their own. Start with running your still and note what temperature the first spirits start to flow. Keep running your still and note the temperature when you finish. Is there a difference in your start and finish temps?

If yes, then obviously the temperature changes during the run as I described and I'll wager they go up. LOL I'll wager if you run the still down to no alcohol left in the boiler you'll see roughly 40F degree change in temps.

Now on your next spirit run log the temperature of each new jar you switch out during distillation. Also note the ABV of each jar after it's at room temp. Taste and smell the jars and makes note of that in your logs for each jar. Now make your cuts as you normally will and note that in the log for the run. Now you know your starting jar and ending jar. You also now know the ABV range you selected as well as the temperature range of the jars you selected. What was the temperature of the first jar you liked? What was the temperature of the first jar you didn't like (tails)?

Again I'm going to bet your hearts temp is higher than your heads temp and your tails temp is higher than your hearts and heads temp. Fores<Heads<Hearts<Tails in increasing temperatures. Does you data support this? Again, unless you're smearing your product you should easily notice this pattern.

Now that you see the patterns for yourself after logging them carefully watch the temperatures where you are making your cuts and fine tune those. One way to do that is take smaller jars at those cuts points since you've narrowed them down. You should get better and more precise data with each new run.

Just be honest in your tests and look at your data and I think you'll be able to answer the question yourself from your own experience.

I can't tell you what temperatures to use as your equipment is different, but I've given you the information so you can do it yourself. Ignore all the noise and bias in the thread of people who don't think temperature plays a part in distilling and do some simple experimenting as mentioned above. Decide for yourself.

[Tater]

Well cant say I didn't give ya a chance.Read only for 30 days and will give ya another chance to show and tell.