Doug's continuous distillation

[football29]

I would like to express my respect and gratitude to everyone who has spent time and effort building and observing something, and choosing to share what they have learned in that process with other people.

From what I have been able to find drmiller100 has shown the only continuous still for small scale fuel production, since like 30+ years ago with Charles803, and it seems to have many improvements over it: performance, simplicity, not needing a specific temperature control valve, etc.

Its very interesting to me and I would like to understand deeper how it works, to know: what are the important and unimportant parts of this design? what materials could be substituted without changing performance? could this design work with 3" and 2" column with less power and slower output? Are there magic ratios between feedrates, power input, and still dimensions, and more.

IMO science and engineering should be a tool to better understand your observations and make predictions about how to build other things so they work how you want.
use the wrong tool for the job, you know the rest. the graphs and equations aren't wrong they could be accurate to describe certain types of distilling apparatus, but like if yuo take some equation or rule of thumb about how all 4 stroke gas engine works and you think that equations universal but it may not apply to 2 strokes or diesels

I also realize studying theory and what has been done in the past and is done today at industrial scale requires a significant effort and can be valuable knowledge to help people understand operate and design their stills. so come on everyone lets be a TEAM

Together
Everyone
Achieves
More

[LWTCS]

There is definitely some disconnect here with these discussions.

It simply is not that difficult to determine how much power is being used when firing an electric still. There really is no way to make a mistake on making that that determination with a basic amp probe.

There is a distillery in Tampa Florida that is running a cobbled together continuous stripper. He runs 120 gallons of beer per hour with 30,000 watts. His low wines come over between 50 - 60% depending on the wash. He sends 1% down the drain. In his real life he is a physician. He is not some huckleberry that has imagined an incorrect outcome.
His still could be better as he feels it is under powered and needs to do a better job with heat recovery. When it rains or the wind blows through his distillery the still will exhibit less than optimal behavior. He is making moves to improve the stills behavior.

My number based on an ASPEN modeling program's calculations arrived at 408 watts per gallon / per hour with a 10% abv. ASPEN did that. A globally recognized modeling program. Stevea has determined it to be slightly different but very similar number. Though initially (maybe on Pope's thread?) he seemed to say that was not at all the number? Maybe I recall that incorrectly?

To flat out say that what has been discussed by Doug (though I do wish Doug wouldn't get so defensive) or others must be false or a mistake seems awfully dismissive. Evidently there just isn't enough info (anecdotal or otherwise) here at HD to vet the claims? But there will be.
I remember when Harry and other naysayers would rail on Old Dog's design because surely the math didn't work. They would make claims about what the design could and could not do with zero hands on experience. Who here remembers that? I certainly do. And now that design is very well established, confirmed, and accepted to be all of the things originally claimed in spite of all the number crunchers arguments at the time.

We don't have to know how to write the equation on the white board to watch a bird in flight and understand in our mind's eye how a bird is capable of flight. Distillation (and fermentation for that mater) is naturally occurring without any human interference. It happens non stop, every day, day after day. Distillation can be as simple or as complicated as we make it.

Fully exploiting energy efficiency often times means that other efficiencies (labor hours, operating range) fall behind.
Using random packing material likely does a fantastic job for example. But you can't run solids. If you cant run solids then you increase your material handling labor (and equipment costs), and likely also reduce yield with respect to grain in distilling. Also, if you intend on laying down 900 barrels a year, i'd say that random packing is not the way to go because cleaning that packing material at the end of a production run on a system large enough to handle that volume is not at all the same as cleaning actual plates. Cleaning a commercial, packed (with some type of marbles for packing) system capable of 900 barrels a year will absolutely increase man hours compared to it's plated counterpart. And that's fine. But don't passive aggressive poopoo on the other designs, feed back recommendations and data being presented. That's how it feels anyway.

[Hügelwilli]

I have a lot of respect for lwtcs as he has DONE things. And writing a compliment to a moderator may help when rude attacking someone else in the next sentence?

Stevea can take his theoretical bullshit and go somewhere else. Cannot attack the thoughts so attack the thinker?

Irony.

What do you think of my words on latent heat of vaporization? Do you use Mol ratios in your distillation?

Have you run a still?

Sometimes it feels like this forum tends to be hostile to science. At least compared to what I am used to. And when a post shows this like your post, it makes me posting such a comment.

Yes, like 99% of all member here I have run a still...

What I think about your words on latent heat of vaporization I posted already here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85277&start=30#p7700521
But perhaps you mean another words? Then you can ask again.
I rarely use mol ratios in distillation. Scientific papers normally use mol ratios. So often it makes sense to use them too.



LWTCS,
about Aspen:
Aspen is extreme versatile and large, what unfortunately means it is relies only on basic general constant numbers of the chemical compounds. This means you can calculate much or everything, but not very precise. It lacks of including measured data I think.
I dived deep into the worlds of VLE measurements of ethanol and water and experimental volatility data of congeners in ethanol water solutions. And Aspen failed both times. But yes, probably there is no better alternative for calculating continuous stills.

[LWTCS]

LWTCS,
about Aspen:
Aspen is extreme versatile and large, what unfortunately means it is relies only on basic general constant numbers of the chemical compounds. This means you can calculate much or everything, but not very precise. It lacks of including measured data I think.
I dived deep into the worlds of VLE measurements of ethanol and water and experimental volatility data of congeners in ethanol water solutions. And Aspen failed both times. But yes, probably there is no better alternative for calculating continuous stills.

That's a fair observation.
We worked on another sizeable project and the engineer had a heck of a time getting some of the simulations to converge. And he is an experience user.

[LWTCS]

totally agree. My understanding is that Adam (Stumpy) has been able to lower operating costs by 30%. I have no reason to believe his calculations are not at the very least reasonably close to accurate.

Yes, I had an email exchange w/ Stumpy early-on. He lowered energy by 30% COMPARED TO WHAT ? HOW? He didn't lower it below the theoretical lower bound. I *suspect* you are comparing batch to continuous; which i wasn't addressing.I certainly was comparing to batch. Miller, "Whisky Science ..." calculates that batch uses ~3.5x the amount of heat energy as continuous. So 30% seems underwhelming.

You said "Much of the alcohol flashes early", which isn't accurate. That first plate offers little EtOH to the vapor stream, compared to the 5th plate. Compare the difference in ABV.vap for the relativity constant amount (volume or mols) of vapor. On the stripper, if the beer is injected at the tenth plate, the largest percentage of low wines vapor produced most certain does FLASH early

... Achieve a 212 F or more discharge temp and its fine. Yes higher temps are possible with grain in solids since you question that previously.

When you boil a pot of water at 1atm pressure - then adding more heat does NOT raise the temp above 100C; instead it causes more boil-off. Solids make no difference. The same thing applies in your still. If your bottoms is liquid above 100C, it' only possible b/c the pressure is higher (** well if you had a LOT of ionic solubles, salt, in the water the temp is SLIGHTLY higher). Claims of 220F bottoms is only plausible if the still base is ~2.5psig, which suggests other problems. Problems? No it does not. Jim Beams rig discharges effluent at 220°-225°F. Stumpy's Rig discharges effluent at 220°-225°F. If that were true, then when the bottoms were discharged to 1atm, it would immediately FLASH (correct use of term) causing the liquid fraction to immediately reach 212F. [this principle is used in flash-distillation units].
[/quote]

[drmiller100]

Lwtcs, respectfully I would prefer to discourage stevea from posting on my thread.

He has never run a still. He is not asking questions but rather lecturing, and he isn't adding value to my thread.
Perhaps further discussion with him would be more appropriate In Research and theory?

[LWTCS]

Lwtcs, respectfully I would prefer to discourage stevea from posting on my thread.

He has never run a still. He is not asking questions but rather lecturing, and he isn't adding value to my thread.
Perhaps further discussion with him would be more appropriate In Research and theory?

Hi drmiller100 (Doug), I understand your position. It can feel a bit insulting to have someone tell you something doesn't work or must otherwise be incorrect by virtue of a mistake or misunderstanding when you have checked and double checked the end result and know the end result to be true.

But stevea hasn't actually broken any rules and has not conducted himself in an undignified manner.
I'm sorry sir but once you post a topic for discussion, everyone is invited to participate and we can not control the direction of the discussion or prevent anyone from participating unless the discussion becomes too side tracked, volatile and /or rules are clearly broken. Also, I am involved in this discussion and therefore would naturally recuse myself from moderator duties with respect to enforcement of conduct since I myself may provoke an unfavorable reply from any number of participants.

[drmiller100]

I have a lot of respect for lwtcs as he has DONE things. And writing a compliment to a moderator may help when rude attacking someone else in the next sentence?

Stevea can take his theoretical bullshit and go somewhere else. Cannot attack the thoughts so attack the thinker?

Irony.

What do you think of my words on latent heat of vaporization? Do you use Mol ratios in your distillation?

Have you run a still?

Sometimes it feels like this forum tends to be hostile to science. At least compared to what I am used to. And when a post shows this like your post, it makes me posting such a comment.

Yes, like 99% of all member here I have run a still...

What I think about your words on latent heat of vaporization I posted already here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85277&start=30#p7700521
But perhaps you mean another words? Then you can ask again.
I rarely use mol ratios in distillation. Scientific papers normally use mol ratios. So often it makes sense to use them too.

LWTCS,
about Aspen:
Aspen is extreme versatile and large, what unfortunately means it is relies only on basic general constant numbers of the chemical compounds. This means you can calculate much or everything, but not very precise. It lacks of including measured data I think.
I dived deep into the worlds of VLE measurements of ethanol and water and experimental volatility data of congeners in ethanol water solutions. And Aspen failed both times. But yes, probably there is no better alternative for calculating continuous stills.

Aspen doesn't work for continuous. I thought we agreed on that? And I explained why 70 percent of energy goes towards hot water back and forth up and down the batch column .

Latent heat of Vaporization is pretty important if you want to understand WHY my still uses so little energy.

>>>****
Strangely enough latent heat of vaporization suggests it takes about three times as much energy to vaporize a pound of water as it does etoh.

One more time. The 4000 watts goes towards heat losses, warming some water (one btu per pound per degree) and lifting etoh vapors from the top of the column to the condenser.

[drmiller100]

This is my third try at this site.
12 years ago it was the only forum and people were rude amd I all but got banned because I couldn't make a sugar wash using their recipe using 3 slices of bread. I also dared to report marbles worked great.
6 years ago same thing. Mods deleted a bunch of my posts.
Here I am. I posted I use marbles and I wasn't banned for it.
I posted my design and I have a few know it alls.

I also have two people interested enough to ask great questions and enough knowledge to figure it out.

I also have more patience and desire to share.

I also have two people now asking good questions. Gas is 6 bucks a gallon.

I have patience for people with great discussion. I have patience for people who TRY.

I have no patience for arrogant fucks who show up and tell me why it won't work.

Lwtcs, I didn't ask you as a mod. I meant to ask you to not encourage stevea to post to my thread. I asked respectfully and you can certainly do what you want.

Fwiw I have degrees in math and physics. My son has a masters in mechanical engineering. We are right handy in understanding physical processes.

When done I used real people doing real things along with physics to develop this thing. When the physics didn't work I changed my understanding.

To be honest a lot of it was trying things then rationalizing it using physics. Then working through road blocks.

It is a beautiful day. My kids are healthy. My gf is making me dinner. I'm not anywhere near a war zone.

Life is good.

[acfixer69]

Life is good. Mandates are easing. Energy is rising to out of expectations. I don't understand why you want to challenge this site as rude. We are a spirit forum again you want us to make fuel. Get over it we make consumables. There are better places for motor goods. Why trouble yourself here. Do you have something to prove to us ...

[drmiller100]

Life is good. Mandates are easing. Energy is rising to out of expectations. I don't understand why you want to challenge this site as rude. We are a spirit forum again you want us to make fuel. Get over it we make consumables. There are better places for motor goods. Why trouble yourself here. Do you have something to prove to us ...

Do you know of any active forums where continuous distillation is discussed?

What are the better places for motor goods?

If my still worked and I really can make fuel for 2 bucks a gallon what should I do with it?

Why do you care if I stick to this subgroup? If it helps I can promise to only post to this sub forum.

I don't want you to make fuel.

I'd try to explain why I think this site is unwelcoming and rude, but... welll anyway

I hope you have a great weekemd!!!

[acfixer69]

I personally don't care if you stick to the sub group. You have attacked the mods as being not open to you , i see it as you got an agenda to prove something. do it.

[LWTCS]

Doug's still works with that power because it exploits a positive feedback loop.

[drmiller100]

You have attacked the mods as being not open to you

??????

You just told me to go somewhere else.

Are you speaking with your mod hat on or as a regular user???

[drmiller100]

Doug's still works with that power because it exploits a positive feedback loop.

Yes.

[drmiller100]

I believe I know more about small scale ethanol FUEL production than anyone else in the world.

I believe I know more about small scale continuous stills than anyone else in the world.

If someone is better please prove me wrong!!!

I know VERY little about making good booze to drink.

The site name is home DISTILLER.

Why the hate?

[LWTCS]

Ok please let's tone it down so we can talk about distilling.

[acfixer69]

You have attacked the mods as being not open to you

??????

You just told me to go somewhere else.

Are you speaking with your mod hat on or as a regular user???

Regular member

[acfixer69]

You have attacked the mods as being not open to you

??????

You just told me to go somewhere else.

Are you speaking with your mod hat on or as a regular user???

Regular member as I am that first.

[The Baker]

Hi,
Maybe I said it before, but, this discussion is way above my pay scale.

However I am grateful that you are expanding the knowledge in my hobby of distillation.
When I first got interested Alex Bokakob (sp.?) was showing his experimental stills.
And Old Dog had yet to design plated columns for the hobbyist...

So keep up the good work, even though the discussion may get spirited at times!

Geoff

[drmiller100]

Hi,
Maybe I said it before, but, this discussion is way above my pay scale.

However I am grateful that you are expanding the knowledge in my hobby of distillation.
When I first got interested Alex Bokakob (sp.?) was showing his experimental stills.
And Old Dog had yet to design plated columns for the hobbyist...

So keep up the good work, even though the discussion may get spirited at times!

Geoff

It can be simplified.
My still makes 2 gallons per hour of 190 proof. Continuous.

It is not suitable for drinking. It uses a 4000 watt heater element.

[GNBrews]

There's so much awesome real-world experience in this thread.

It's unfortunate that it was rightly posted in the fuel sub-forum, but still gets shit on. Spring rutting, I figger. Please continue to discuss; so much great info. Cheers!

[LWTCS]

There's so much awesome real-world experience in this thread.

It's unfortunate that it was rightly posted in the fuel sub-forum, but still gets shit on. Spring rutting, I figger. Please continue to discuss; so much great info. Cheers!

100%
It did get a bit convoluted at times. I didn't help much either in that regard.

But this discussion as a whole is quite good.

[The Baker]

I think someone mentioned Harry.
A man of sometimes strong opinions.

In his forum he was working on a benchtop continuous still.
He asked for people to contribute and I sent him maybe fifty dollars...

But then he pulled the plug on the idea, and was not happy about having to do that though he didn't exactly say why;
and I think pulled out of the forum.

I always wondered if the powers that be, who happily ignored hobby distillers as, I suppose, being
too small to worry about, blanched at the idea of a benchtop continuous still
in every house beside the coffee machine, and had a word with Harry.

Geoff

[drmiller100]

I think someone mentioned Harry.
A man of sometimes strong opinions.

In his forum he was working on a benchtop continuous still.
He asked for people to contribute and I sent him maybe fifty dollars...

But then he pulled the plug on the idea, and was not happy about having to do that though he didn't exactly say why;
and I think pulled out of the forum.

I always wondered if the powers that be, who happily ignored hobby distillers as, I suppose, being
too small to worry about, blanched at the idea of a benchtop continuous still
in every house beside the coffee machine, and had a word with Harry.

Geoff

Who is Harry and where is his forum?

I don't think it can be benchtop but i made a quarter scale which is 6 feet tall and made .5 gph.

[The Baker]

Harry ran, I think, the Distillers and New Distillers forums, years ago.
I think it was in the Yahoo groups (maybe).

Geoff

[LWTCS]

I think someone mentioned Harry.
A man of sometimes strong opinions.

In his forum he was working on a benchtop continuous still.
He asked for people to contribute and I sent him maybe fifty dollars...

But then he pulled the plug on the idea, and was not happy about having to do that though he didn't exactly say why;
and I think pulled out of the forum.

I always wondered if the powers that be, who happily ignored hobby distillers as, I suppose, being
too small to worry about, blanched at the idea of a benchtop continuous still
in every house beside the coffee machine, and had a word with Harry.

Geoff

Yessir.
He and Manu.
Manu's powere calcs come in at 418 watts per gallon/ per hour as I recall?
That's how I knew the power input would scale in a linear fashion.

[drmiller100]

I think someone mentioned Harry.
A man of sometimes strong opinions.

In his forum he was working on a benchtop continuous still.
He asked for people to contribute and I sent him maybe fifty dollars...

But then he pulled the plug on the idea, and was not happy about having to do that though he didn't exactly say why;
and I think pulled out of the forum.

I always wondered if the powers that be, who happily ignored hobby distillers as, I suppose, being
too small to worry about, blanched at the idea of a benchtop continuous still
in every house beside the coffee machine, and had a word with Harry.

Geoff

Yessir.
He and Manu.
Manu's powere calcs come in at 418 watts per gallon/ per hour as I recall?
That's how I knew the power input would scale in a linear fashion.

Per gallon of 95 etoh?

[Saltbush Bill]

This is my third try at this site.
12 years ago it was the only forum

Who is Harry and where is his forum?

I find it interesting that you have been coming and going for so long, yet think that 12 years ago this was the only Distilling forum.
Or that in all of that time you don't know who Harry was/is or where he was to be found.
I haven't looked to hard, because I have absolutely no interest in the subject , but surely there are forums out there that cater specifically to fuel production.

[drmiller100]

This is my third try at this site.
12 years ago it was the only forum

Who is Harry and where is his forum?

I find it interesting that you have been coming and going for so long, yet think that 12 years ago this was the only Distilling forum.
Or that in all of that time you don't know who Harry was/is or where he was to be found.
I haven't looked to hard, because I have absolutely no interest in the subject , but surely there are forums out there that cater specifically to fuel production.

Maybe Harry wasn't significant?

Find a better site and I'll leave!!!!