Home Distiller

so now we are going to ultra sound/nuke ,then age in a barrel for 3 years?
most likely in 3 years it wont be bad stuff any way and I doubt ill remember what it tasted like.iv put some funky stuff in a barrel and it came out better then that i thought was "good" stuff.I believe "the bad stuff" (heads or tales)
become the flavors of the future .its a balancing act of how long its aged verses how much is left in, so that they are all converted.
now as for the most part your not removing anything but converting some alcohols and other chemicals into flavors.( as a example only not for real) you mite take methanol? add to butanol? and a acid and end up with vanilla flavor.100s of these chemical reactions happen when aging.individually scientist can recreate these flavors but becomes a problem when mixed.
(want more? look up artificial flavoring,how its made)

all this time I was assuming the actual microwaves were responsible for part of it.

And they very well could be, the same as ultrasonic treat ... I believe it all works synergistically to get the end results....
Others have tried short cuts to get to where the nuclear procedure ends up and have not gotten the same results... but we keep on trying different approaches cause that's what we do... until something better comes along or until this process changes Keep on Nuking

FS

in my opinion all your doing is heating and vaporizing some of the lower alcohols and acetates.

Its more than just that, if you have not tried this and watched the chips, stave or dominoes during the heat and the cooling cycle... you have no visual idea of the change... there are a couple of videos that have been made of the effect. a picture is worth more than a 1000 words in this case... And the change in the taste profile is considerable...

Dnderhead I know you are a conventional distiller and prefer conventional ageing. But I graciously ask that you give it a try. Use whatever ageing product be it staves, dominoes or chips that you feel comfortable with. Less than 10 minutes total time of microwaving and a few hours of cooling... could be an eye opening exercise...

FS

I got some white brandy that I was gonna run through again to clean it up, so I'm willing to give this a whirl. I think I have an extra microwave and a shed somewhere. This is not the hearts, but some tasty heads with just a little off putting taste. I'd like to use it for a base for something else. My question is, do I have to create the vacuum if I'm not using oak or can I just boil away

Odin posted something along the line your trying out.... I would try it a time cycle or two... as stated by Dnderhead some of the lower alcohols will leave the base spirit... do it, let it cool, taste it and repeat if needed... I am not sure as no one has posted using brandy at this juncture. I bet a few cherry chips would make it awesome...though

FullySilenced,
Thank you for starting the thread, one of the more interesting I have read.

Microwaving is different than heating. In chemical engineering there is the old adage that for every 10 degrees C the temperature is raised the chemical reactions double. Having said that, microwaving can greatly accelerate organic chemical reactions. In the last 10 to 20 years microwave devices have become quite common in chemistry labs. They can bring about chemical reactions that might take hours or even days in a matter of a few minutes.

To recap what I think you're doing is:
1) Pumping the wood chips to extract flavors and to entrap fusels and other long chain molecules.
2) Accelerate the cascade of chemical reactions that naturally occur, especially oxidation.

Max

Dear Max,

Thank you for your insight, thoughts and ideas. If a few more float around in the head of yours please post them as well sir...

Happy Stillin

FS

Heat is a catalyst in reactions...

if anyone has a link explaining how microwave derived heat is different from other sources, I'd be interested in reading that.

To recap what I think you're doing is:
1) Pumping the wood chips to extract flavors and to entrap fusels and other long chain molecules.
2) Accelerate the cascade of chemical reactions that naturally occur, especially oxidation.

pumping, yes to some degree. Until someone quantifies 'entrapped fusels and other long chain molecules', thats only speculation.

Accelerate reactions? of course... thats what heat does.


I have done this method years ago. It is effective at quickly flavoring a distillate. So is the suntea idea... pretty much equally effective. I'd rank this innovation just barely above using an essence to flavor your product.

After all the thousands and thousands of documented attempts at accelerated aging techniques and the zero success rate, why would anyone think that simply microwaving your shine is the secret to instant gratification? That makes no sense....

junkyard dawg wrote: I have done this method years ago. It is effective at quickly flavoring a distillate. So is the suntea idea... pretty much equally effective. I'd rank this innovation just barely above using an essence to flavor your product.

After all the thousands and thousands of documented attempts at accelerated aging techniques and the zero success rate, why would anyone think that simply microwaving your shine is the secret to instant gratification? That makes no sense....

OK, I can understand you are not a fan of this at all.

I do not think that anyone is really saying that nuking replaces 5,10,15 years of aging. What I think people are saying is that this works great for quickly improving your product over the base white likker right out of the still. I know to some it may be an unforgivable sin to nuke yer booze, but I for one am not going to sit there and wait 6 mths to 15 years waiting for the "traditional" process to do it's work. Not all of us have been doing this for 20 years and have a big likker stash downstairs that is "traditionally" aged.

Comparing this to essences is like calling it "just above a mr. distiller" - you are degrading a method simply by attaching a crappy one to it. Fine, you are against nuking, you think it should only be done the old way, fine ... but there are a lot of people in this thread that have stated they are relatively pleased with the results, and probably a bunch of people who have not posted have enjoyed it also. IF it was a garbage method, then you would have heard it thru the last 14 pages of this thread.

To those that enjoy the nuking method, keep irradiating. To those that prefer to only age it traditionally, remain calm and wait ...

Not all of us have been doing this for 20 years and have a big likker stash downstairs that is "traditionally" aged.

I certainly don't wish I did!

And I don't think its an issue of being a fan or not. Like I stated, I have experimented with nuking spirits in the past. It did pretty much what I expected... wring some flavor out of the wood in very short time. In that regard, I think the essence comparison is dead on. In both cases, flavor compounds are extracted by a solvent. In an essence, all the work has been done for you... With nukular again, you are putting the material carrying the desired flavors into the solvent and wringing it out with heat. ( Would an instant coffee vs brewed ground coffee comparison make sense here?) I'm not making the essence comparison to denigrate either. I make it because its appropriate. And, this is about flavoring. not aging. True, heat and pressure are catalysts that can drive some reactions along faster. That does not equate to aging...

Fine, you are against nuking, you think it should only be done the old way, fine ...

I never said those things.

for the record, I don't believe this meets the high safety standards Home Distiller is known for. Nor do I think this is a new novel way of doing things. Thats why I can't believe its gotten this level of attention....

Dunderhead mentioned something on the page before that really hit me. I currently have 3 gallon jugs of UJSSM aging, they are all at the 8-9 month range. One jar is hearts with medium oak (three sticks), one was hearts with heavy oak ( 4 large sticks), the third? Garbage. Part of it was my failed JD smoking chips experiment that I redistilled, and a quart of that is total skank, heads and tails I was gonna throw away but decided to stick them on heavy oak for fun. Guess which jar has the most complex flavors? You got it, the skank jar. So to really test this out someone should take a jar of really nasty stuff and see if it smooths it out. Time will.
I drink about half of what I distill as white dog, I'm definitely gonna try this it sounds interesting. What will it hurt? I'm still gonna do long term again.

when you git into making stuff for long term aging,its getting to know what "skank" to keep and how much.if drinking "off the still" then very little can be added,if your going to keep for a year a bit more,if aging for many years then much more can be used.
as for aging,,heat speeds it up, cold slows it down to a halt.as does most chemical reactions.
heating/chilling does little.it mite draw some from the wood IF it actually creates a vacuum.(you cant pressurize a ball jar)
but this can be done in a short order with a vacuum pump.oxygenating,vaporizing and heat is the main things that effect aging .tho I don't thank id want to put oxygenated "fuel" in a microwave.
not in my kitchen. if some one has the means to do this safely then go for it.

interesting question and answer debunking my theory that the microwave is doing some magic akin to Flash Gordon's ray gun. Sucks the fun out of that thought. although, with a healthy dose of my own product I can imagine it is still true and make neat phaser sounds while nuking some goodness.

"Don't microwaves change the molecular structure and composition of food, by ejecting some electrons from atoms and forming cancer-causing free radicals? If I should stand away from a microwave to avoid possible leakage, why would I eat microwaved food?

Microwaves don't affect the molecular structure of the food, except through the thermal effects we associate with normal cooking (e.g., denaturing of proteins with heat and caramelizing of sugars). That's because, like all electromagnetic waves, microwaves are emitted and absorbed as particles called "photons." The energy in a microwave photon is so tiny that it can't cause any chemical rearrangement in a molecule. Instead, it can only add a tiny amount of heat to a water molecule. During the microwave cooking process, microwave photons stream into the food and heat it up. But millions of them would have to work together in order to cause non-thermal chemical changes in the food molecules and they don't normally do that. The photons can only work together if there is a conducting material, such as a metal wire, inside the oven. In that case, the photons can accelerate mobile electric charges along the conducting paths and create sparks. Such sparks can cause chemical damage, but nothing worse than the chemical damage caused by scorching food with a flame or broiler. Even if your microwave is full of sparks for some reason, I doubt that the food will be any worse for you than it would be if you cooked it over an open flame or barbecue."

If nothing else I am learning more than I thought possible on this forum about microwaves

I will do a tutorial on making Flash gordon ray gun sounds later.

seriously though, this is a great way to get some drinkable likker on the shelf while some proper aging is going on.

Put a qt of headsy, already oaked 85 proof in the microwave with an N2 purge, heated it to 160degF, put on the lid and let it cool. Tastes great now. Going to try some of this with some white at 125 proof this weekend. The N2 purge might be overkill, but I'm a rather devout coward.

Sounds great. I got some headsy brandy off cuts I'd like to try. How do you control the end temp? Just by starting and stopping the nuclear reaction?

Starting and Stopping unless your microwave has a temperature probe... once you figure out your microwaves performance curve you can duplicate it.... some product variations will change the required microwave time so stay close and monitor it if possible...especially for the first cycle of a new product

Again open top containers no metal of any kind, no foil labels etc. heat, remove install the lid let it cool and repeat if needed... 150f or so is where i stop..

blind drunk wrote:Sounds great. I got some headsy brandy off cuts I'd like to try. How do you control the end temp? Just by starting and stopping the nuclear reaction?

BD, I am posting comments by Zero Gee on another forum. He seems to have a very scientific/engineering background and I respect his comments. Here is what he posted.

Good point, brantoken.

I used a new, clean mason jar. I filled and heated it for 2 minutes, checked the temperature with a digital thermometer, put it back for another minute, checked again and put it back for another minute. At that point, I noticed two thin bubble streams. I held off for a minute, then tapped the side of the jar. No increase or decrease in the stream for four minutes at which point they dissipated. I reduced the time to 3:30 for the next heating and saw no bubble stream. The thermometer read 162F.

Every model is different, so pay attention and go slowly until you know how yours operates. Get a good thermometer... it's worth the cost to avoid flash boiling and possible burns.

I used this method and found my ideal time was 3 minutes.

I did the stop-start method with water and measured the temp. The 80 proof spirits were 2degF lower with the same timing, probably due to more evaporation.

if anyone has a link explaining how microwave derived heat is different from other sources, I'd be interested in reading that.

"Under the superheated and elevated pressure conditions possible with microwaves, reactions that take hours of refluxing in a flask sitting in a conventional oil bath or heating mantle can instead be completed in minutes."
http://cen.acs.org/articles/90/i39/Chem ... waves.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/p ... review.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.genengnews.com/gen-articles/ ... very/3311/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

pumping, yes to some degree. Until someone quantifies 'entrapped fusels and other long chain molecules', thats only speculation.

"Spirits aged in charred barrels mature faster than those aged in toasted or non-charred
barrels. The charring process for new barrels definitely contributes to the aging of a spirit.
It acts like an activated-carbon filter to adsorb sulfur compounds and it provides a passage
for the spirit into the pores of the oak."
http://www.distilling.com/PDF/chapter4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

There are many more internet sites explaining barrel aging...so this is not speculation.

After all the thousands and thousands of documented attempts at accelerated aging techniques and the zero success rate, why would anyone think that simply microwaving your shine is the secret to instant gratification? That makes no sense....

There is another way to look at this. There are wines for tasting and wines for drinking…these are not the same. This also applies to liquors. What I and others here are trying to achieve is a product that can be fermented, distilled and aged in months not years…Hey I don't even have enough time to buy green bananas...


Max

Good stuff Max. Thank you. That puts a little muscle behind their efforts. One thing noted in the links is the ability to pressure heat organic compounds without boiling. I would advise caution to members attempting to heat above a boil by creating pressure in a microwave.

GEN With what types of organic molecules does microwave chemistry work best?
Dr. Kappe In general, many organic transformations that require high temperatures and/or long reaction times have benefited the most from the use of microwave heating. These include condensation reactions for making heterocycles, transition-catalyzed cross couplings, and a whole variety of other transformations.
It has become difficult to identify reactions that have not been performed using microwave technology. In addition, transformations that traditionally were carried out at room temperature have, in some cases, been successfully translated to high-speed microwave reactions.

GEN What are some of the advantages compared with initiation of organic reactions with heat or light?
Dr. Kappe Microwave chemistry essentially boils down to applying an efficient direct-heating principle to your reaction mixture in the flask. Although it works much faster and is more efficient than regular heating, it is essentially still heat that drives the chemistry. Because of the more rapid heating, the higher temperatures, and the better process control in a dedicated microwave reactor (operating up to 300°C and 30 bar of pressure), you can do more things faster and better.
It took the scientific community quite some time to come to that conclusion, and there may still be people that believe in the existence of nonthermal microwave effects or related phenomena, however, the evidence from recent investigations points to a strictly thermal effect for the overwhelming majority of cases relevant to synthetic organic chemistry.
Photochemistry, such as ultrasound or mechanochemistry, is something completely different and should not be mixed up with microwave heating phenomena.

Note thier remarks in the last sentance guys.

300c? and 30 bar (about 430 psi) no thanks ill stand at the other end of street and watch.

Dnderhead:

Here was the key statement:

"process control in a dedicated microwave reactor" i am sure its a pressure rated reactor .... would have to be...



hmmm...
Photochemistry, such as ultrasound or mechanochemistry, is something completely different and should not be mixed up with microwave heating phenomena.

"i am sure its a pressure rated reactor"
agreed as I don't have one nor any one on here that i know of.I believe all that is being done is
a "open distilling" .vaporizing the lower alcohols etc. thus it appears that its better or is better.
so its not "accelerated aging"there are other ways of removing remaining "heads"aerating with o2 is one that is used in some vodkas.but this is not aging.possibly a pressure cooker witch will reach over 260f and have some pressure to help keep it from boiling away? but no way could I sustain this for extended time.one hour, maybe two if careful.now with what i seen they say 6 months? at 200f and and 400psi. my cooker will self destruct.
( any one for Pressure caned white lighting?)

I agree with you i am sure its not a recreational/hobby size process. I don't know of anyone that has one either. That process is way beyond anything i have been exposed to.
But we keep on reading and studying systems that are out that an maybe we can apply some of the concepts to our level of application.

Tonight i made up Sweet Feed on Cherry wood chips. 125 abv ran them through 2 cycles this evening its still cooling but is looking quite nice. pulled 1/2 a tsp. and cut it with 1/2tsp of distilled H20 and it was appealing its still on the chips and we shall see what its like in the morning...

FS

i made up Sweet Feed on Cherry wood chips. 125 abv ran them through 2 cycles this evening its still cooling but is looking quite nice. pulled 1/2 a tsp. and cut it with 1/2tsp of distilled H20 and it was appealing

Sure sounds like essence style flavoring to me...

Max Vino, Thanks, I have been busy and have not had time to google any of this. Your links support much of my points about this topic. First up, safety and the nuke factor....

Occasionally, an exploding reaction vessel would blow the oven door off its hinges. The inconsistent results led chemists to debate the reasons for the observed reaction rate enhancements and wonder whether nonthermal microwave radiation effects were at play.

“Some people are under the impression that microwave chemists are trying to preach that there is some crazy microwave effect. We always have to clarify that we aren’t doing that. It really is just an efficient way to heat reactions.”

[/quote]The second article is not easy to cut and paste... Its worth rereading at least the first couple of pages tho... if you want to get the idea of what I am contending. to paraphrase at least a little..."The main reason for this increase include the availability of commercial microwave equipment intended for organic chemistry and the development of the solvent free technique, which has improved the safety aspect."

From the third page,

Microwave chemistry essentially boils down to applying an efficient direct-heating principle to your reaction mixture in the flask. Although it works much faster and is more efficient than regular heating, it is essentially still heat that drives the chemistry. Because of the more rapid heating, the higher temperatures, and the better process control in a dedicated microwave reactor (operating up to 300°C and 30 bar of pressure), you can do more things faster and better.

better being subjective...

From this small bit of evidence, Nukular aging clearly fails the safety standards that are, for what its worth, set by Home Distiller. This is not a process that the general public should be encouraged to try. This forum sets the standard for safety in this hobby and thats something I take pride in and I know many others that contribute here also take very seriously. Dismissing those concerns with a smirk "I've done it a hundred times and it'll be fine for you too" is a disservice to everyone that has worked to legitimize this hobby. That attitude is beneath the dignity that this forum strives for.

I've been asked to have an open mind about this discussion. I gotta say the same thing back to y'all.

edited to improve format...

Not to pile on,

but in regard to the originality of this method... From page one of the Sticky entitled 'distress aging with charred oak'

However, if you're using essences to flavor your "neutral" booze, you can
heat it up to about 50 °C (? °F) in a glas jar or something, take the lid
off for a couple of minutes while it's warm, and then seal it again and put
it away for some storage. Now you have speeded up the mellowing with
considerable time.

Smell the vapors that's coming off.... they're really harsh and foul smelling.

That poster didn't specify microwave, but since the issue is only heat. Remember, microwaves do not do anything special... I'd say this nukular aging technique has already been covered on HD.