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Included volume to surface area ratio...interesting thought. You know...the shape with the greatest volume to surface area ratio is a sphere. But it would give non-uniform fiber lengths. Penetration is a function of the fibers, so although the sphere has a constant radius, it would likely not saturate uniformly.

It seems that a cube would be more beneficial, although the volume to surface area ratio is slightly less than the sphere, because of fiber grain orientation.

Inquiring minds want to know...
ss

Would seem that something like 3/4" X 3/4" X 5" would be a good rule of thumb. Has approximately the same thickness as a barrel and limits exposure to end grain. That is, if end grain is indeed an issue - seems to be some debate about that.

This topic is one that has far more than one answer. The end goal is to make and have a great drink, too enjoy till the last drop and leave you wanting more.
With that said shouldn't we all so be discussing that the char in the new oak barrel does.
100%chard to 0% pure oak under the charing. The 100%chard oak is carbon, 1. Topic
99% thro 1% toasted oak 2. Thro 99 topics
pure oak 0% charing 100. Topic

What I'm trying to get at is, that there is so much more to this than what the 99% toasted 1% give too our distilled spirits
in the past I did One test with untoasted oak and found that this is part of the flavoring in whiskey and in a other test that just recently I found out that I f it up by not charing the oak all the way to get the deep alligator char.
Just the thoughts of my wandering thoughts

S-Cackalacky wrote:Would seem that something like 3/4" X 3/4" X 5" would be a good rule of thumb. Has approximately the same thickness as a barrel and limits exposure to end grain. That is, if end grain is indeed an issue - seems to be some debate about that.

I find it fits nicely through the 1" mouth of the apple juice jugs that I oak and age in. Hadn't thought about all the rest of it.

tp

Speaking of wandering thoughts.. I recently read up on how activated charcoal is made (don't try it.) I was reading about it because it occurred to me that when we char oak the way we do we are turning the surface of it into something like lump charcoal. The activated stuff is basically charcoal that has been processed to create a very porous "skeleton" of what it once was. I believe that to some extent our charred oak is working to pull flavors out and filter our spirits.

On one of my next runs I plan to age 3 jars as a test. Jar 1 will have a small amount of lump charcoal in it. Jar 2 gets the same charcoal and a toasted oak stick. Jar 3 normal charred oak sticks.

I think jar 1 will be lacking something, but it will be interesting to see how it turns out. I'm pretty excited about jar 2, and you know I'm excited about jar 3 lol.

Wish I had time for all these ideas..

Thats a good experiment Brutal, let us know how it goes.

Regarding Corene's question on thickness, I use Jack Daniels Barrel wood that I cut up into sticks, sand clean and rechar. They are 1" thick and after 4 years in the barrel at Jack the whiskey doenst get even half way through the wood. You can see the line in the wood. Also the wood gives up LOTS more caramels and vanillas when I drop the sticks in quart jars, starting within minutes, further evidence 4 years on 1" thick staves does not reach 1" in.

Bear in mind jimbo that we are soaking both sides so if it is soaking a 1/2 inch that means a 1 inch stick will wet right through. I wonder how long it takes to soak that far ? Does it go right to the 1/2 mark or does it slowly penetrate over the years. Every oak is going to be slightly different too. I fear some of this will never be answered. I personally use 3/4 x 1 x 4 because that's what the commercial sticks I buy are. They are a struggle to get into the mouth of my glass 1g demijohns. Sometimes they split down the middle. The toast seems to go right throughout the whole stick.

I've taken well used 1x1x 5 sticks split them down the middle, charred the inside and drop them back in fresh quart jars and they went right back to oaking with full caramel and vanilla again so I think it takes a long time to work its way into the middle of a one inch thick stave

Brutal wrote: The activated stuff is basically charcoal that has been processed to create a very porous "skeleton" of what it once was. I believe that to some extent our charred oak is working to pull flavors out and filter our spirits.

I have a little bit of experience with activated charcoal. It does remove the taste of over oaking in a scotch very well. Wash the a-c first and use distilled water, otherwise the very fine powered charcoal stays in suspension indefinitely. I used a washed level tsb in a half gallon. Shack it up and wait 5 minutes, sieve out the a-c and repeat using fresh washed a-c. It works amazingly quickly. Keep doing this until you get the results you desire. It didn't change the color on mine but it did start to change the overall whisky taste as the oakyness disappeared. Kiwi Bruce

Yeah Jimbo i bet it takes a lot longer than we could leave or sticks in. Im finding my best results now are with sticks that are on their third use. Slower but much smother
Mine come from this place http://www.suber-lefort.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Lots of good info on their site even if most of it is aimed at Wine

Wanna see something interesting? Pull out one of the sticks you been soaking and split it up. Mine get saturated to the center rather quickly. Typically they are quite spirit logged and soft. No snap at all. My sticks are roughly 1/2" x 3/4" x 5". Made from barrel staves.

Looks like I'm using all the wood, eventually, although it will take some time to extract all the goodness. I figured, why wait, eh? I've recently started experimenting with charred oak sticks that I then splintered or ground into sawdust. Splintered has worked well as stand alone treatment, at a 1:2 splintered vs whole usage rate. Sawdust seems to work really well to "adjust" jars or jugs while aging. One or two teaspoons per gallon perhaps. Anyway, so far so good. We'll see in time. Screw end grain concerns.

buflowing wrote:I figured, why wait, eh?

Because aging takes...uhhh...time? And if aging takes time, why rush anything else?

Or did I miss the point entirely?

tp

When i tried chips they gave off an astringent taste. Agree or not but i don't like the end grain

T-Pee wrote:

buflowing wrote:I figured, why wait, eh?

Because aging takes...uhhh...time? And if aging takes time, why rush anything else?

Or did I miss the point entirely?

tp

Not less time, less wood. Or looking at it another way, quicker access to, and more complete usage of, all the layers of the stick (char, toast and raw).

pulsetech wrote:When i tried chips they gave off an astringent taste. Agree or not but i don't like the end grain

Over time, aren't you getting all the end grain anyways, as it leaches through the side layers? Or not.

buflowing wrote:

pulsetech wrote:When i tried chips they gave off an astringent taste. Agree or not but i don't like the end grain

Over time, aren't you getting all the end grain anyways, as it leaches through the side layers? Or not.

Buflowing, I somewhat agree with what you're saying - in principle. I think we make a lot of assumptions based on the physical characteristics of an oak barrel. We seem to assume that end grain is a bad thing simply because a barrel has very little, if any, of it. We see anecdotal evidence all over these forums of people getting good results using methods other than those based on barrel related assumptions. I've used JD chips with great success. My most recent experience has been with sticks and I can only say that I'm not terribly pleased with the results at this point, but I'll wait a little longer to pass judgement.

And, why not sawdust? The assumption would be that it has the same chemical makeup as a stick. As seems to be the biggest issue with oaking, it would be a matter of finding the correct amount to use. It's easy for some folks to discount what's found outside the box.

In my opinion, the use of staves cut along the grain with no end grain exposed is for two reasons.

1. Strength. Any piece of wood cut across the grain will break a million times easier than a piece cut along the grain.
2. Leakage. Staves cut across the grain with all end grain exposed across the entire length would very likely donate most, if not all, of your drink to the angels.

I feel like as long as you process whatever you are using properly (toast, char, whatever, I've heard to leave sticks/cubes in water after charring to reduce tannins and the sediment left behind after aging), as long as you do that, the use of end grain should do nothing but speed up the process. It's all the same piece of wood.

On the same topic but slightly off....

Im aging in glass, with one 1x1x5 toasted and charred stick per quart. My first brandy run I split the product. Half went 6 weeks, needed some to sip on while building stock. The other half I plan to let go 6 months.

My question is, where does everyone store their aging stock? I was keeping it in the garage attic, but now that summer is here I'm afraid its too warm up there. Just looking for suggestions. I have 3 more months to go.

Just about anywhere there's no light getting to your glass containers and where the temperature changes with the day and night. Everyone's climate is different And that changes with the seasons.

likker liker wrote:Just about anywhere there's no light getting to your glass containers and where the temperature changes with the day and night. Everyone's climate is different And that changes with the seasons.

Just a quick question...why no light? Mine is in my dark attic, but for the temp swings. Never heard of a light effect...

Skin, the hotter the better.

UV (ultra violet) light does weird things to molecules. It will skunk beer in clear or green bottles, fade the color of your pretty panty droppers and absinthes, and a myriad of other bad shit. Always best to keep stuff out of sunlight, including exessive exposure to your skin.

Yep, jimbo uv light bad, likker keep in the dark good

Good to know. I was concerned about the excessive heat in the garage attic, but figured the temp swings would be a good thing. July and august the attic has 2 temps. Hot and hotter. I was moving them down to the garage once a week or so to get the temp swings. Once off the oak I will store in my basement storage room.
Thanks

What do you think of using hardwood dowels from HD?

They are about a buck a foot for 1 inch round. (There are smaller or larger to fit into the bottle you have.)

You could toast and char in longer lengths and then just cut them to the length desired.

Not as cheap as free but may be easier for the forest challenged amoung us.

I am assuming that "hardwood" means oak. Is there some test to be sure?

Tom

Tomb wrote:What do you think of using hardwood dowels from HD?

They are about a buck a foot for 1 inch round. (There are smaller or larger to fit into the bottle you have.)

You could toast and char in longer lengths and then just cut them to the length desired.

Not as cheap as free but may be easier for the forest challenged amoung us.

I am assuming that "hardwood" means oak. Is there some test to be sure?

Tom

I would not assume hardwood is oak also if it is oak is it red or white oak big difference.

Why not goto local wood place and just buy some air dried white oak.... cur it in sticks and use it. Will be the right thing and also be a lot cheaper.

FYI most dowls I see here are either birtch or soft maple but there is not way to say for sure inless they say what wood it is.

B

BBQ places are good for the forest challenged. white oak has been hard to find in (northern) Canada, except for in "Canadian Tire" they have a BBQ section and sell ex-bourbon barrel chunks for smoking food with. Cabelas and outdoor outfitters have similar BBQ sections.

i found some ex- red wine barrels today at BBQ country...

i chisel off the outside of the barrel, leave the original char. Toast them in tinfoil for 2 hours at 380* and then char them with a torch.

I have (Did it last week) 2 gallons of UJSSM on Oak the T-pee way. The first batch is a bit more char than I like.. So I am doing a little experiment. 1 Gallon has 6 sticks 3 are chard and 3 only toasted. Second has 6 toasted sticks. Going to compare them side by side.... Heck maybe a mix of the 2... will be just right. Both gallon jars at right at 60%. Maybe in 4-6 months I will change my mind...... after the magic starts to happen. Got 12g of gen 3 UJSSM on the go to add to this. Will be nice to have a bit to stock aging. My goal is to keep about 3-4 years ahead.... So going to take some time to ramp up..

B

bitter wrote:I have (Did it last week) 2 gallons of UJSSM on Oak the T-pee way. The first batch is a bit more char than I like.. So I am doing a little experiment. 1 Gallon has 6 sticks 3 are chard and 3 only toasted. Second has 6 toasted sticks. Going to compare them side by side.... Heck maybe a mix of the 2... will be just right. Both gallon jars at right at 60%. Maybe in 4-6 months I will change my mind...... after the magic starts to happen. Got 12g of gen 3 UJSSM on the go to add to this. Will be nice to have a bit to stock aging. My goal is to keep about 3-4 years ahead.... So going to take some time to ramp up..

B

I have just about the same thing in process. Same UJ, same proof.
I added a stick of Charred W oak to one Quart and a Toasted W oak stick to another Quart.
Been only 4 weeks and I am very surprised that they both are just about the same color.
Danged if the Toasted one doesn't have a smoother taste....
On yeah, same oak block also.

Thanks. I am seeing both have a different color after a week or so. The just toasted at about 380-400 is much lighter.. not tried it yet. Going to wait about 2 months.

B

Did a test at the one month and about a week or so. I tested both jars, the toasted and the mix of toasted with char'd. I like the taste of the just toasted the best.

I took almost 1oz from the just toasted and then diluted to about 40% and put 1 drop of real maple syrup in it and mixed well. Took a sip and OMG this is going to be tasty for Christmas!!!! Sipping on it right now!!!!! So from now on going to maybe use only 1 char'd stick per gallon.. and maybe even cut things back to 4 sticks instead of 6 sticks per gallon.

B