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bobnr32 wrote:I spoiled a batch of wine- it turned to vinegar. My local wine lab recommended an alkali to add to the wash before distilling.
Your advice please.

I tried baking soda in a wash after seeing how it caused things to fall out of suspension in low wines. In a matter of hours I had the clearest wash I had ever seen but it had a stench of rubber and must that came over throughout the entire run.

You can try taking a sample of your wine and add baking soda. If it ends up smelling really bad you might be better off using the wine vingar for cooking or salad dressing.

I'm in understanding that you can combine sodium carbonate and activated carbon simultaneously? I was wondering if I get un-neutral spirit from my distillation I'd put it into a flask with magnetic stirrer, mix up some soda and carbon and let it stir in cold overnight and then re-fractionate it, would this be sufficient?

Spriit Tisler wrote:I'm in understanding that you can combine sodium carbonate and activated carbon simultaneously? I was wondering if I get un-neutral spirit from my distillation I'd put it into a flask with magnetic stirrer, mix up some soda and carbon and let it stir in cold overnight and then re-fractionate it, would this be sufficient?

Just how nasty is this stuff? At some point you can actually think about tossing it and starting again with a good ferment.

Spriit Tisler wrote:I'm in understanding that you can combine sodium carbonate and activated carbon simultaneously? I was wondering if I get un-neutral spirit from my distillation I'd put it into a flask with magnetic stirrer, mix up some soda and carbon and let it stir in cold overnight and then re-fractionate it, would this be sufficient?

Putting that cart before the horse aren't you?

Honestly, just about everyone here will tell you to do anything and everything other than use carbon. My advice, try it and if you like it, keep doing it.

In the end nobody knows what you are making and if bicarb and/or carbon results in something that you like.

I had a batch I described in my greeting post and I probably just toss it eventually, but since it costs me none (I've got plenty of soda and carbon lying around) other than trouble of pouring it into flask and leaving it overnight, I'm interested in seeing if and how much it affects that stuff.

My primary goal for now is to make neutral, clean vodka to begin with. I'll see what results will I get with my all-316 under-construction still.

As far as I google'd sodium carbonate and activated carbon does not react together, so I'll give it a try when I get time.

Just wanted to share this with you.

I had 2 liters of 80% distillate over magnetic stirrer for 2 days non-stop with about 1 tbsp of sodium carbonate(Na2CO3) and activated carbon both mixed. I installed reflux fraction column with condenser and collecting device and distilled part of it over(ran out of time). I installed large air pump (70L/min) to partially cool down the reflux coil by pushing air through it. With this I got constant bit over 90% concentration. Smell was pretty much matching high quality commercial 80% vodka, sharp but clean ethanol smell and it tasted very neutral. The first distillate had strong burnt yeast and strange smell.

Spriit Tisler wrote:Just wanted to share this with you.

I had 2 liters of 80% distillate over magnetic stirrer for 2 days non-stop with about 1 tbsp of sodium carbonate(Na2CO3) and activated carbon both mixed. I installed reflux fraction column with condenser and collecting device and distilled part of it over(ran out of time). I installed large air pump (70L/min) to partially cool down the reflux coil by pushing air through it. With this I got constant bit over 90% concentration. Smell was pretty much matching high quality commercial 80% vodka, sharp but clean ethanol smell and it tasted very neutral. The first distillate had strong burnt yeast and strange smell.

Would this be the same batch that was distilled in a carbon steel still that you have been cautioned not to drink?

Nope, I threw it away. This one's from my new stainless still.

Spriit Tisler wrote:Nope, I threw it away. This one's from my new stainless still.

Awesome!

Spriit Tisler, you're still putting way more thought and effort into decent spirits than should be required... Are you just hell bent on experimenting, and drawing us away from real issues that members have, or what's the deal...??? Most here simply do a clean ferment and a good job at distillation and leave it at that... If I had to dick around as much as you seem to be doing I'd have given up decades ago... I toss a wash together, let it ferment, let it clear, rack into my boiler, and run it... Granted, it's usually one or two stripping runs and then a spirit run on the low wines for neutral but I can also single run pot still or double run pot still too... All depends on what I'm after and it has nothing to do with whether or not the spirits are drinkable because they are from any run where cuts have been made...

Who the hell has time to aerate low wines for 48 hours on sodium carbonate AND activated carbon, and why would they bother...??? And then end up with less than neutral spirits... Seriously, who...??? Other than you, that is...

rad14701 wrote:Spriit Tisler, you're still putting way more thought and effort into decent spirits than should be required...simply do a clean ferment and a good job at distillation and leave it at that...aerate low wines for 48 hours on sodium carbonate AND activated carbon, and why would they bother...???

And then end up with less than neutral spirits...

+1 Rad.

Tis', brother...garbage in => garbage out (GIGO). Spend the time with a good recipe and ferment and you won't have to spend that time with your product.

With a well designed and fabricated still, when operated properly, you'll have a (neutral) product the you'll be proud of. And you'll understand what everybody has been telling you all along. Some learn "the hard way"....and some never learn at all. Don't be "that guy".
ss

rad14701 wrote:Who the hell has time to aerate low wines for 48 hours on sodium carbonate AND activated carbon,

You make it sound like you have to be sitting there the whole time. Probably takes 5 minutes tops and that would inlcude checking up and decanting.

and why would they bother...???

Because it works.

And then end up with less than neutral spirits... Seriously, who...??? Other than you, that is...

I'm one.

There are probably others who keep it off the boards.

There's no excuse for striving to improve basic practices in an effort to avoid the need for additional more complex efforts... That logic is kinda tough to argue...

rad14701 wrote:There's no excuse for striving to improve basic practices in an effort to avoid the need for additional more complex efforts... That logic is kinda tough to argue...

But are they really more complex than what is already done?

Nobody seems to complain about the complexity of doing an AG wash.

Nobody gets their feather's ruffled by someone spending 4 or 5 days malting their own grains.

Why doesn't everyone drink their likker white instead of going through the trouble of toasting/charring pieces of wood?

Nobody has a problem with these additional and more complex steps.

Can't be comparing apples to oranges, but I digress... Regardless, no need drifting off topic any further...

rad14701 wrote:Can't be comparing apples to oranges, but I digress...

It's simple, using "complexity" as a reason to not do something is a poor excuse in this hobby.

Regardless, no need drifting off topic any further...

The thread is a baking soda thread, there is nothing off topic about someone discussing how, why or their experience with baking soda or the closely realated sodium carbonate.

Hi

After reading most of this thread and a few other sites I decided to give this a go.

I just added some baking soda to a batch (already run once)

However, thinking I was clever I disolved the baking soda in hot water before adding it

I am worried now that I have ruined the batch. I have read that adding how water to baking SOda release co2 and reduces lye!!

Perhaps this is a foolish question - but do the experts here think things are ruined? Or can I just add more baking soda .
I originally added a bout a teaspoon per gallon

Thanks

I couldn't help noticing a possible correlation between those that have low post counts and insist on mucking about with all sorts of fuckery in order to make a "good" drop and those with higher post counts that simply use sound and relatively simple fermenting and distilling practices to produce an outstanding drink.

Coincidence?

tp

Or those of us with in-between post counts who have mucked about with all sorts of fuckery only to discover that while it is possible to polish a turd, it is in fact still a turd.

tp

Post count does not take away from the fact that bicarb works.

Using it on a turd would be no different than someone oaking a turd. That doesn't mean that oaking isn't doing what it is supposed to.

Post count doesn't take away from the fact that you shouldn't need it in the first place.

tp

T-Pee wrote:Post count doesn't take away from the fact that you shouldn't need it in the first place.

That's up to the individual to decide.

Someone tries it with and without and feels it's better with then, who can argue with that?

The fact I'm referring to is the chemistry behind the effect of pH treating. It happens. It's a fact.

T-Pee wrote:I couldn't help noticing a possible correlation between those that have low post counts and insist on mucking about with all sorts of fuckery in order to make a "good" drop and those with higher post counts that simply use sound and relatively simple fermenting and distilling practices to produce an outstanding drink.

Coincidence?

tp

The fact I am new to this board has little to with my knowledge on the subject. There area a number of reasons why someone would not post on this board that would be blindingly obvious.
While I have been practicing this process successfully for several years (and make a fine product) I am always interested in evolving the process.
I have read several books on the process, particularly when starting out, these did not mention use of salt or baking soda.

So thank you, sir, for trying to deter new people from joining your forum- but your response didn't answer my original question.

I like it

I guess I should add, this thread was to discuss the use of sodium bicarbonate Not to comment on post count or argue prowess. I do agree though the best drop is a well practiced and proven unfuckerd one.

Sorry for participating in taking this thread in an unhealthy direction.

Yes, sodium bicarb does do something. Probably not the holy grail for converting skanky feints into a pristine neutral, but it does do something. I might try it again if I get bored.

I think most agree on here that the most bang for your buck is at the head end with a good ferment.

Timing?

I read some recommend letting the low wines sit on the baking soda for weeks. I understand this is because the reaction takes a fair amount of time. I also read that just throwing it all in the boiler together will be fine. I understand this to make sense because the chemical reaction will double in speed every 10 degree (C) rise. Thus I could believe that an hour or so of heating time would be equivalent to a week or so of room temperature?

Does this make chemical sense?

(I have done a hybrid of mixing it up and waiting a few days before the spirit run)

Tom

Tomb wrote:Does this make chemical sense?

It does make sense. I bring the pH of my treated low wines back down to around 7 because I couldn't find any information about running at a higher pH.

I still have not found any info, good or bad, about running alkaline low wines.

Anyone ever used baking soda in a thumper when the still has the mash? It seems this would be OK to boost the ABV and compress the heads when trying to get a neutral.