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Please don't forget to take a FG measurement.

Here is the video. This was by hour 2, it was going fastest at about 4 hours in. Even with a a tight lid seal it was still coming out the lid sides as well due to the pressure build up, the default hole isn't big enough to quickly get the gas out it seems. Made a big old mess.

hoochlover wrote:I've got some videos of it pushing foam and CO2 through a blow off tube, it was way more violent than I figured it would be. The amount of CO2 it is pushing is just crazy, which proves the more yeast you use the quicker it runs through the sugar!

Take the lid off. With that amount of yeast and short ferment times you don't have the risk of getting an infection.

Bagasso wrote:

hoochlover wrote:I've got some videos of it pushing foam and CO2 through a blow off tube, it was way more violent than I figured it would be. The amount of CO2 it is pushing is just crazy, which proves the more yeast you use the quicker it runs through the sugar!

Take the lid off. With that amount of yeast and short ferment times you don't have the risk of getting an infection.

Yeah that's how I started. Except there was so much yeast foam I ended up using the tube to control it.

hoochlover wrote:Yeah that's how I started. Except there was so much yeast foam I ended up using the tube to control it.

So you need a 100l container to do a 25l ferment.

Maybe point a fan at it or use a little oil.

Maybe, just maybe, you don't need quite that much yeast...

It finished somewhere between 10 and 11 hours. So the smaller results pretty much played out the same on the bigger scale, except you have bigger problems.

I'll rack it, throw some clay in to clear it then distil it and get the FG, but its nice to have a 10% batch done and dusted so soon. And I pretty much won't repeat this experiment until I have a better fermenting vessel, standing over it for 3 hours stirring it every 5 minutes is not fun! I do have a 100L stainless pot but I really need some active way to reduce the foam.

rad14701 wrote:Maybe, just maybe, you don't need quite that much yeast...

Well you do need that much yeast if you want it to ferment that fast.

But in the overall sense of things it becomes more time consuming at some point to keep adding yeast, more effort, time and capital needed. But it is important to realize you do gain some things by doing it fast, so it is not completely useless.

hoochlover wrote:But it is important to realize you do gain some things by doing it fast, so it is not completely useless.

I'm not sure that you are achieving those gains unless you remove the oxygen from the wash.

Having followed this thread from the start, I recall you explaining that the idea is that during the growth stage of the yeast they produce esters and it was your idea to use a large amount of yeast to keep this from happening.

The snag, as I see it, is that no matter how much yeast you use they will always multiply until the oxygen in the wash is used up. For example, let's say you add a tablespoon and there is enough oxygen for them to multiply until there is a cups worth of yeast. That's about .58kg.

If you have the same amount of oxygen in the wash but use 1.1kg of yeast, the yeast will, in theory, still multiply within the first few hours until you have 1.68kg of yeast, along with the esters they produce during this growth stage and then the greater volume of yeast will work faster through the sugar, finishing up faster but, you still have the congeners that you would have with a 72 hour ferment.

Add the heat and other stress factors and your wash may have more congeners than a slower ferment.

Bagasso wrote:

hoochlover wrote:But it is important to realize you do gain some things by doing it fast, so it is not completely useless.

I'm not sure that you are achieving those gains unless you remove the oxygen from the wash.

Having followed this thread from the start, I recall you explaining that the idea is that during the growth stage of the yeast they produce esters and it was your idea to use a large amount of yeast to keep this from happening.

The snag, as I see it, is that no matter how much yeast you use they will always multiply until the oxygen in the wash is used up. For example, let's say you add a tablespoon and there is enough oxygen for them to multiply until there is a cups worth of yeast. That's about .58kg.

If you have the same amount of oxygen in the wash but use 1.1kg of yeast, the yeast will, in theory, still multiply within the first few hours until you have 1.68kg of yeast, along with the esters they produce during this growth stage and then the greater volume of yeast will work faster through the sugar, finishing up faster but, you still have the congeners that you would have with a 72 hour ferment.

Add the heat and other stress factors and your wash may have more congeners than a slower ferment.

Yes you may be right. Yeast aren't that simple though, they have a way of knowing how congested they are that isn't well known currently. They don't always reproduce in crowded environments, so they seem to have a way of knowing when to go dormant that isn't simply resource based. Reproduction takes some hours so if you finish within some fraction of "Generation hours" then you know the breeding has been severely limited over a longer batch.

But given dried yeast and the unnatural production methods I am thinking the more of that I use the more shit I'm adding over a longer batch anyhow. In the end if the distillation and clearing methods I use clear it up so its indistinguishable from a slower ferment, well, at least I have a way to make a faster batch if ever needed. And I hope this information is useful to other people that may care about time at all because I found not very much info on this subject for distilling purposes. You can even see some people in this thread thinking it is impossible to achieve it, so this information is not widely spread like some other stuff is.

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06 ... xperiment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

masonsjax wrote:http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06 ... xperiment/

Do you have anything to add with this link? Not sure of the relevance.

hoochlover wrote:Yeast aren't that simple though, they have a way of knowing how congested they are that isn't well known currently. They don't always reproduce in crowded environments, so they seem to have a way of knowing when to go dormant that isn't simply resource based. Reproduction takes some hours so if you finish within some fraction of "Generation hours" then you know the breeding has been severely limited over a longer batch.

That sounds like a whole bunch of wishful thinking. We don't know if any of this is true.

In the end if the distillation and clearing methods I use clear it up so its indistinguishable from a slower ferment, well, at least I have a way to make a faster batch if ever needed.

Sure you have the speed but what I replied to was talking about benefits besides the speed.

You still have not run anything? Oh well, as long as its fun, no harm, no foul.

hoochlover wrote:

masonsjax wrote:http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06 ... xperiment/

Do you have anything to add with this link? Not sure of the relevance.

In the discussion of yeast cell division in a crowded environment, Kai's experiment shows an increased rate of yeast growth correlating to the pitching rate. So it looks like a more crowded yeast population will result in increased budding rate.

masonsjax wrote:

hoochlover wrote:In the discussion of yeast cell division in a crowded environment, Kai's experiment shows an increased rate of yeast growth correlating to the pitching rate. So it looks like a more crowded yeast population will result in increased budding rate.

But his growth rates barely improved which shows he is isn't testing like I did. When you are measuring in DAYS still you are so far off my testing it is crazy.

I'm distilling my 10% in 10 hour batch right now. Only got 11L of cleaned material from a 25L start. Embarrassing!

Ok so I collected the following

30ml - 90% = 27ml
50ml - 90% = 45ml
360ml - 90% = 324ml
630ml - 80% = 504ml

I stopped earlier than I could have because my rig seemed to struggle going above 80C today. Except for about 300mls the rest smelt strongly of tails. So it was smeared throughout the entire run nearly. I think this is something to do with my rig more than anything, I don't think 2KW is enough power to really get this going, it was 10C where I was running it and it just struggled to heat up that well with so much metal exposed. With towels wrapped around everything it was able to run much faster but yeah, something to work on.

So all up I got 900mls from 11L but I had to stop at 80C because it wasn't going any higher.

Do you think, there was alcohol left in the boiler?

Edit: Are you sure, the wash had 10%? Did you calculate it from OG and FG?

hoochlover wrote:I think this is something to do with my rig more than anything, I don't think 2KW is enough power to really get this going, it was 10C where I was running it and it just struggled to heat up that well with so much metal exposed.

Are you running outdoors?

I spent my first few months running a 5 gallon pot on an 1800 watt hotplate, then in a keg with an element at 1750, so it's definitely enough to make a nice drop. Many people purposely drop down to ~1750 once they get up to steam.

Outdoors it took forever on a chilly day, but in the basement it was 3x faster.

hoochlover wrote:But his growth rates barely improved which shows he is isn't testing like I did. When you are measuring in DAYS still you are so far off my testing it is crazy.

what you would be looking for is a concentration where the yeast stop reproducing. I have seen that the optimal for production is 5-7 percent. The upper value of that in 25L would be 1.75 kg so there is room for growth from your 1.1kg.

I'm distilling my 10% in 10 hour batch right now. Only got 11L of cleaned material from a 25L start. Embarrassing!

It would be cool if the kitty litter is acting as a zeolite.

der wo wrote:Do you think, there was alcohol left in the boiler?

Edit: Are you sure, the wash had 10%? Did you calculate it from OG and FG?

I forgot to take the FG but it should have from the amount of sugar I used. It was still dripping at 80C, it just took 40 minutes to get the last 200ml whereas the first ~900ml was in 20 minutes and it couldn't get above 80C. There was stuff left I just couldn't be bothered to get it out given my rig was struggling so bad. Either way it is close enough to 10% to realize this test is relatively valid for the amount of alcohol produced. Whether you want to believe it was 9% in 10 hours or 10% in 10 hours, it is pretty much the same from that viewpoint. But I will do more tests as I get my rig running more stable.

raketemensch wrote:

hoochlover wrote:I think this is something to do with my rig more than anything, I don't think 2KW is enough power to really get this going, it was 10C where I was running it and it just struggled to heat up that well with so much metal exposed.

Are you running outdoors?

I spent my first few months running a 5 gallon pot on an 1800 watt hotplate, then in a keg with an element at 1750, so it's definitely enough to make a nice drop. Many people purposely drop down to ~1750 once they get up to steam.

Outdoors it took forever on a chilly day, but in the basement it was 3x faster.

If you go to my build thread you can see how much metal is there. The whole thing must weigh somewhere between 30 and 40lbs, and it's 100% stainless steel with ~8lbs of SPP inside it. I should be able to hear liquid in my column if I was getting enough heat in there but I am not, I can barely distil water with this rig, it is about 1 drop per 5 seconds. I have some kettle elements I may insert into my T500 esque boiler and see how I go. I really need a bigger boiler because this 30L boiler seems to be made from cheap stainless steel and just isn't big enough. I've seen some rust form on its bottom which is just ridiculous.

Bagasso wrote:what you would be looking for is a concentration where the yeast stop reproducing. I have seen that the optimal for production is 5-7 percent. The upper value of that in 25L would be 1.75 kg so there is room for growth from your 1.1kg.

Ok that is interesting, where did you see that 5-7 percent is optimal? I agree that 1.1 isn't the upper limit, it is just what I was comfortable using on this larger scale. And it was good I only used that much because I already wasted so much due to my shitty fermentation vessel.

Bagasso wrote:It would be cool if the kitty litter is acting as a zeolite.

The clay cleared it up really well, I'm not really sure how much I like using it though because I am self sufficient minded and using this clay seems a bit of a cheat (and I have no local source for it). I'm starting to feel like I should just be running dirty washes through and not caring so much about that first run as much as I do. It clears it up from a dirty wash to near perfect alcohol anyhow. And since I double/triple distil its kinda pointless worrying about it so much.

hoochlover wrote:

der wo wrote:Do you think, there was alcohol left in the boiler?

Edit: Are you sure, the wash had 10%? Did you calculate it from OG and FG?

I forgot to take the FG but it should have from the amount of sugar I used. It was still dripping at 80C, it just took 40 minutes to get the last 200ml whereas the first ~900ml was in 20 minutes and it couldn't get above 80C. There was stuff left I just couldn't be bothered to get it out given my rig was struggling so bad. Either way it is close enough to 10% to realize this test is relatively valid for the amount of alcohol produced. Whether you want to believe it was 9% in 10 hours or 10% in 10 hours, it is pretty much the same from that viewpoint. But I will do more tests as I get my rig running more stable.

If 9% in 10h or 10% in 10h of course is important. Because the question is, if it is really possible with your much-yeast-method to finish all the sugars in 10h or will it need days more to avoid the sugar bite from unfermented sugars. At least "normal" washes need little time for the most part, but much time to finish the last 1-2vol%.
Perhaps you have backset? Then measure the SG of it. Perhaps it's an interesting number for us.

der wo wrote:

hoochlover wrote:

der wo wrote:Do you think, there was alcohol left in the boiler?

Edit: Are you sure, the wash had 10%? Did you calculate it from OG and FG?

I forgot to take the FG but it should have from the amount of sugar I used. It was still dripping at 80C, it just took 40 minutes to get the last 200ml whereas the first ~900ml was in 20 minutes and it couldn't get above 80C. There was stuff left I just couldn't be bothered to get it out given my rig was struggling so bad. Either way it is close enough to 10% to realize this test is relatively valid for the amount of alcohol produced. Whether you want to believe it was 9% in 10 hours or 10% in 10 hours, it is pretty much the same from that viewpoint. But I will do more tests as I get my rig running more stable.

If 9% in 10h or 10% in 10h of course is important. Because the question is, if it is really possible with your much-yeast-method to finish all the sugars in 10h or will it need days more to avoid the sugar bite from unfermented sugars. At least "normal" washes need little time for the most part, but much time to finish the last 1-2vol%.
Perhaps you have backset? Then measure the SG of it. Perhaps it's an interesting number for us.

I would have measured FG I just forgot. And the difference between 9% and 10% is negligible , if you have to waste 1% to get it done in nearly no time then I don't think it matters much for those people. But like I said there was alcohol left in this I just didn't want to waste 2hours on my faulty rig to pull it out. You are free to do your own tests to verify or dispute mine.

For taste it is bad, if 10% of the sugar remains unfermented.

hoochlover wrote:Ok that is interesting, where did you see that 5-7 percent is optimal? I agree that 1.1 isn't the upper limit, it is just what I was comfortable using on this larger scale. And it was good I only used that much because I already wasted so much due to my shitty fermentation vessel.

I can't find where it is that I saw that but the thing is that you talk about a concentration level where yeast might stop reproducing even in the presence of oxygen and how this is an added benefit.

Shouldn't you find out where this? Without it you are not avoiding ester production.

To be honest I doubt you will avoid it even if you find out what it is and double down.

It clears it up from a dirty wash to near perfect alcohol anyhow. And since I double/triple distil its kinda pointless worrying about it so much.

I want to believe but subjectivity is a real thing.

der wo wrote:For taste it is bad, if 10% of the sugar remains unfermented.

There was nothing left to ferment in this last batch. I had it on a bubbler when I was clearing it, no bubbles. There were a couple bubbles every 5 minutes or so for about 6 hours after the 10 hour run, this is just the yeast eating itself and other non sugar remnants. Don't mistake this as it still fermenting, it is just the yeast settling itself out, eating the weak ones, etc. You can take it off at 10 hours and have your 10% wash, you just need to find a way to clear it of the yeast. Centrifuge is probably one of the best methods.

Bagasso wrote:

hoochlover wrote:Ok that is interesting, where did you see that 5-7 percent is optimal? I agree that 1.1 isn't the upper limit, it is just what I was comfortable using on this larger scale. And it was good I only used that much because I already wasted so much due to my shitty fermentation vessel.

I can't find where it is that I saw that but the thing is that you talk about a concentration level where yeast might stop reproducing even in the presence of oxygen and how this is an added benefit.

Shouldn't you find out where this? Without it you are not avoiding ester production.

To be honest I doubt you will avoid it even if you find out what it is and double down.

I'm starting to realize more and more that when you have a rig that goes from 5% wash to 96% in one pass that you don't really need to worry about these things much at all when you do the following with such a rig :-

1) Do a stripping run, don't add the heads, strip till most alcohol is gone (so most tails is in)
2) Treat result with base (bicarb, etc) and let it rest for some time.
3) Do another run this time making sure the entire rig is clean. So basically do a steam clean before you distil your low wines.
4) There will be barely any heads to compress, so there will be very little heads smearing in the hearts as barely any got in the rig. By the time tails comes along due to the excellent compression of the rig you stop collection here.

This maximizes yield and neutralness. You could add another pass or carbon if you are paranoid but with a good rig there really is not much need. The important thing is at least two passes, and treatment with base. That removes pretty much any crap from a dirty wash.

In regards to lowering reproduction I still think it is lowered in an overall sense the faster you do the run, but it is just my opinion, it would take a lot of tests and yield comparisons with a stable rig to find out without expensive scientific tools. Currently we can see that at the very least from one test that adding a LOT of yeast does not significantly lower alcohol yield like many have said.

How are you going to eliminate the heads from the strip run?
you'll loose loads of good alcohol if you try.

So you will end up doing more ferments to get the same amount of product, and in the end loose time, money and definitely effort compared to just going with a T&T.
I believe Rads allbran is down to 72hrs if you follow the steps provided, and you don't have to stir for 3 hrs.

hoochlover wrote:I'm starting to realize more and more that when you have a rig that goes from 5% wash to 96% in one pass that you don't really need to worry about these things much at all when you do the following with such a rig :-

1) Do a stripping run, don't add the heads, strip till most alcohol is gone (so most tails is in)
2) Treat result with base (bicarb, etc) and let it rest for some time.
3) Do another run this time making sure the entire rig is clean. So basically do a steam clean before you distil your low wines.
4) There will be barely any heads to compress, so there will be very little heads smearing in the hearts as barely any got in the rig. By the time tails comes along due to the excellent compression of the rig you stop collection here.

This maximizes yield and neutralness. You could add another pass or carbon if you are paranoid but with a good rig there really is not much need. The important thing is at least two passes, and treatment with base. That removes pretty much any crap from a dirty wash.

Why don't you hold on to that advice until you have tried it a few times to prove that it "maximizes yield and neutralness." I'm not saying it won't work, but you are pretty sure of yourself for a guy who only has a couple of runs under his belt and none successful yet. People might mistakenly think that you are speaking from experience.