24 gallon electric bain marie

[shadylane]

When I get finished with the lid it will look like this.
The thermometer has a 20" long stem and was used for measuring the temp of compost piles.
It's probably not very accurate, but it will give me a guestimate of the boiler temp.
A modified 1/4" compression fitting will be used to mount and seal the thermo on the lid, so it can easily be removed.

[shadylane]

I finished all the welding on the Bain Marie, I'm now waiting on parts for the lid.
Pressure tested the jacket with water pressure from the garden hose.
Honestly, I was kind of nervous about using that much pressure.
I wasn't worried about the safety of using 40 or 50 psi of water.
I was worried if the Bain Marie could hold it.

[shadylane]

I've been working on a manometer that will look something like this when it's done.
Figure in order to work right, the manometer has to be taller than the bain marie is deep.
The max depth of the steam injector will be around 18" So I'll make the mano 36" tall.

[cuginosgrizzo]

Isn't this risky? I see it becoming a siphon in case of a puke, and empty your boiling mash out of the boiler....

[shadylane]

The boiler can blow steam bubbles in the manometer or it could suck the water out of the mano.
There's only water in the bain marie jacket, no mash to puke

[shadylane]

I'm getting closer.
Waiting for the glass tubes to finish the boiler level and clear plastic for the manometer.
Once I get that done, I can connect the wires and start boiling water to clean her up on the inside.
Figure the sacrificial run might be made from 30 pounds of corn chops, 15 gallons of water, bakers yeast and enzymes.

[HDNB]

i think i finally get why i have been so confused for this build...you have double heat? elements in the water of the bain marie and steam injection directly into the mash?
isn't that a double redundancy from the department of redundancy department?
or do you have a really big condensor?

[shadylane]

I've basically put the thumper inside the boiler and I'll mash, ferment and distill with it.
And yes I have a condenser that can knock down upto 9,000w if needed.
On a side note, the same heaters in series and running on 120v will be used to heat the fermenter.
I think the design will work pretty good,
It will be even more efficient when I finish building the flux capacitor

[Brutal]

i think i finally get why i have been so confused for this build...you have double heat? elements in the water of the bain marie and steam injection directly into the mash?
isn't that a double redundancy from the department of redundancy department?
or do you have a really big condensor?

He's got a double wall boiler. The area between the inner and outer will be half filled with water, and that water will be heated with electric elements. That hot boiling water will transfer the heat to the mash inside the inner shell. When mash temp comes up the water in the jacket will start to put off steam, and it is this steam that will be direct injected into the mash. When fermenting in the same double wall vessel the heater will be used to control fermentation temps by heating the water in the jacket. The point of it is to prevent scorching while running on the grain or dirty. This is pretty much the holy grail of distilling in my opinion. Totally awesome.

[HDNB]

The area between the inner and outer will be half filled with water, and that water will be heated with electric elements. That hot boiling water will transfer the heat to the mash inside the inner shell. When mash temp comes up the water in the jacket will start to put off steam, and it is this steam that will be direct injected into the mash.

and the lightbulb finally comes on! ingenius! and you are right, totally awesome!

(Frik, i feel much slower than usual now...i read this whole thread twice trying to "get it", i thought i must have missed the key the first time through.)



i'm gonna go kick a dirt lump now.

[pythonshine]

No need to feel that way HDNB, I did not understand alot about yaks build untill I had a face to face.....gotta get me one of these some day

[shadylane]

Blame the confusion on me. I'm poor at describing what I'm doing and why.
I'm definitely looking forward to Yak's build. I want to see the new ideas

[pythonshine]

I will be posting the takedown pics as I go along....the excitement

[shadylane]

I'm doing a test run with the electric heated bain marie.
The steam injection part isn't ready yet. So only the water bath part is being tested.
There's 24 gallons of water in the water jacket and pot.
One 4500w heater is being used, no insulation, outside with a 5-10mph wind.
The air temp and water was around 55f at the start and the air temp is slowly falling.
After 2 hours the inner pot, were the mash would be is around 160f
I threw two old coats over the still for insulation.

[HDNB]

that's only 60% efficient...just curious...what is the voltage and current on the 4500w element?

i think she needs a heavier coat.

[Brutal]

Are you saying there is 24 gallons in the still and 24 in the jacket too?

[shadylane]

24 gallons total according to the tape measure and calculator.
And the 4500w is what the heater is rated at the 240

[shadylane]

that's only 60% efficient...just curious...what is the voltage and current on the 4500w element?

I think she needs a heavier coat.

She definitely needs a heavier coat
Time to start engineering some insulation
The water jacket started boiling after 3:05 and the pot temp was 210f
The next time I fire it up, both 4500w heaters will be running.

[HDNB]

Time to start engineering some insulation

that stuff Odin uses is pretty slick, i saw a picture recently where a guy was applying what looks like a 3/4" thick sheet of rubberized material to the boiler. they boilers he sells certainly look cool, i'd like to find out what and where to get that insulation locally.

do you have an ammeter on you elements? that would be nice to get dialled in on all the differnt functions you are going for.

[shadylane]

All I have on the controller is a volt meter.
I haven't decided what to use for insulation yet
But I'm looking back on all the old posts for ideas

[LWTCS]

That insulating sheet material appears to be very similiar to armaflex (or the like). The same type of material used to insulate refrigeration lines.

[shadylane]

This is just too easy, I love the new rig.
Made a mash out of 100% cracked corn and enzymes.
Filled the jacket and pot with water.
Added the alpha and corn then turned it on.
Brought the temp to 205 and held it there for a couple of hours while occasionally stirring.
Turned off the heaters and drained the hot water out of the jacket.
Used the jacket for a wort chiller by filling it with cold water.
When the temp dropped to 180f I added the second dose of alpha and let it set for another hour.
Turned the cooling water back on for a little while and dropped the temp to 130 for the gluco.
Let the gluco work for an hour then quickly dropped the temp to 90F and pitched the bakers yeast.
Last, I put the lid on and filled the water trap.
For fermenting the heaters are set for 85f.

If my math is right the water jacket has around 1,400 square inches of surface area.
when filled with cold running water it's real easy to cool the mash below the target temp if your not careful.
I'm sure my mash protocol wasn't the best, but this is going to be a sacrificial run.
But like I said "This is just too easy, I love the new rig"

[still_stirrin]

that's only 60% efficient...just curious...what is the voltage and current on the 4500w element?

I think she needs a heavier coat.

She definitely needs a heavier coat
Time to start engineering some insulation
The water jacket started boiling after 3:05 and the pot temp was 210f
The next time I fire it up, both 4500w heaters will be running.

Remember Shady, the "motivation" for heat transfer is temperature difference. So, as the inner boiler gets closer to the temperature of the jacket, the heat transfer will subside in favor of the greater temperature difference between the outer jacket and the ambient air.

Granted, with a liquid inside the bain marie, it will still conduct heat much better than air on the outside. But with convection of the air, it will pull your heat load out quick. Plus, the surface area (for conduction of heat) is greater on the outer shell than on the inner shell.

Bottomline....insulate it good...fiberglass, thermal insulating foam, ceramic, plaster, or what ever you can scrounge. The better the "R" value, the more efficient your bain marie will be.
ss

[still_stirrin]

...But like I said "This is just too easy, I love the new rig"

This system is "the gold standard". It raises the level of the hobby to the commercial capability...and in some case, beyond.

Kudos Shady.
ss

[shadylane]

still_stirrin that's a fact.
I didn't time the warm up and I was using 9000w this time.
But with the insulation, extra power and not having the rig outside in the cold wind.
It warmed up a hell of a lot faster.
Posting with SS

[shadylane]

If the rig had a electric motor for stirring.
The mashing and fermentation could be done under sanitary conditions.
That's a idea that's being considered and head scratched about.

[still_stirrin]

If the rig had a electric motor for stirring.
The mashing and fermentation could be done under sanitary conditions.
That's a idea that's being considered and head scratched about.

You da' man!

Without doubt I know you can do it. But consider this, while the bain marie is both boiler and mash tun (and fermenter), you may need a separate top for the boiler and mash tun portions. With a stirrer penetration through the lid (this is a "slam dunk" for you), you want a sealed lid for the boiler function. This points to separate options...or at least a reconfiguration. If there was a big enough port that you could affix your stirring system to on the lid and yet remove and seal the port when going into boiler mode, you could even use the same lid (with integrated reconfiguration features).

You know, I'm not too far from you...5 - 6 hours...one of these days, I'm going to have to come to "the asylum" and drool at your equipment. And now, with your growing TiG skills...the sky is the limit. Only available stainless steel is your limit now!
ss

[MichiganCornhusker]

Congrats, Shady, that is a beautiful thing to see you having such great success with the new rig!!
That is a very cool idea that I would expect to see copied many times now that you have blazed the trail.
Nice work!

[shadylane]

Thanks for the compliments but my welding sucks.

[yakattack]

So are we considering this a success? Do you have the direct steam injection working in conjuction with the bain marie right now? If so how did it function for you.

Pythonshine just picked up my boiler to do the mods on it. Glad this has turned out well for you. I'm not as worriednow.

Yak