I vote to "out" copper from the homedistillation process!

[DAD300]

All the testing you are asking about has been done and presented here in scientific papers and for some unknown reason some still don't understand or accept them. This data ranges from 1980 to 2014 in a dozen or more references. But if you don't read the references...

Posts here back up that EU and Russia have import standards for EC's. I know Brazil has...let's not assume that if the U.S. has no standards there is no threat!

You know, I'd like to see some data about synthetics...has it ever been presented on HD? Is there a reference about the leaching of silicone from a gasket? Some of the founders here used to use plastic buckets for boilers saying nothing bad could carry over. We don't believe that anymore do we? I've been in a pro distillery using an iron bottomed still! WOW...

crow, you're a mod here...slow your roll...don't escalate this and get it locked. Post some scientific rebuttal. Give us reference that says EC's in alcoholic beverages aren't a concern. Show me a reference on distillation with the presence of EC's from a non copper still. Anything other than, "that's how it's been done for a thousand years!"

3d0g brought up a good point about wineries and EC's...when I can I'm going to look into that.

[thecroweater]

Buddy there is so much data here now that can be used to back either side of the debate. Urethane in stainless stills? Why rehash that fact its in YOUR first link in another thread and in the whiskey science blog posted a few posts back here. I am not the one being personal of offensive here but i wont stand for it either. Luckily the shots were at me and not another member or maybe it would be locked

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

I don't think we can ever get a concise answer until the product from.our very stills are tested, there are so many different factors involved with tests from a lab, commercial and hobby scale.

Here. Skip to chapter 11. This is a study they did in the UK as part of recommendations for alcohol policy review. They polled the public (in multiple countries I believe) for samples of their "unreported" alcohol, and tested for contaminants because they thought they could link it to increased occurrences of liver cancer. End result, the ethanol was the only carcinogen that posed a serious risk.

http://amphoraproject.net/w2box/data/e- ... 2013_c.pdf

I did a quick calculation based on my body weight, and the maximum EC level/L they found, and figured my maximum daily allowable intake.... I think I'm ok. Based on the numbers, I'd have to drink 37 litres (edit: of pure alcohol) a day for EC to pose a problem. i may be a drunk, but I can't even drink 2 litre son a really good day.

[emptyglass]

From page 170 of "Whisky; Technology, Production and Marketing"

"Copper has already been mentioned as a silent contributor to spirt quality as it removes highly volatile sulphur compounds. It is also implicated in the formation of esters. Copper catalyses the formation of ethyl carbamate from the cyanogenic glycosides derived from the original barley. Stainless steel is not recommended for the construction of distillation equipment to avoid compromising quality, but it can be used for ancillary pipework and vessels"

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Aw ... ll&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[harley03]

I my self was thinking to made all of my product cooler in SS and “only” have all the rest in copper… but after a lot of reading of copper and healthy then a understand that we people need copper to feel good… so now a forget ss even in product cooler and that mean that a can continue to made them in copper and only ¼ so big then it needs to be in ss….

There is a lot of "news" of howe good copper is to all of ours healty... use google then you can find it...

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/03/23/he ... opper-cup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://womansvibe.com/here-is-why-you-s ... opper-cup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.keele.ac.uk/pressreleases/20 ... sease.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


Cheers from Sweden

[Kegg_jam]

I did a quick calculation based on my body weight, and the maximum EC level/L they found, and figured my maximum daily allowable intake.... I think I'm ok. Based on the numbers, I'd have to drink 37 litres (edit: of pure alcohol) a day for EC to pose a problem. i may be a drunk, but I can't even drink 2 litre son a really good day.

Yeah, I don't think I'm in any immediate danger if I don't dump all my copper and switch to stainless. However, if the opportunity presents itself and is reasonable in cost then I might consider building or changing some of my copper on the down-side.

[pfshine]

This is a big merry go round. There is dangerous things all around us all the time. Those smoke detectors you have all around your house, they have one of the most radioactive elements in them americium. It is way more radioactive than uranium or plutonium. Are you gonna get rid of your smoke detectors.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

This is a big merry go round. Their is dangerous things all around us all the time. Those smoke detectors you have all around your house, they have one of the most radioactive elements in them americium. It is way more radio active than uranium or plutonium. Are you gonna get rid of your smoke detectors.

[carbohydratesn]

Those smoke detectors you have all around your house, they have one of the most radioactive elements in them americium. It is way more radio active than uranium or plutonium. Are you gonna get rid of your smoke detectors.

Come on, that's completely different. You know that's a ridiculous comparison to make. But whatever, I'll go with it.

No, it would be really, really stupid to get rid of your smoke detectors.

Just like it would be really, really stupid to get rid of all the copper in your stills. Radioactive elements are extremely useful in tiny quantities like those in smoke detectors. It is safe...as long as it's *inside* the smoke detector, and it's a small enough amount, and it's properly shielded.

Just like how copper is safe in the ascending side of a still. There are many factors that could cause copper on the collection end to be a bad thing. If you fuck up and there is a lot of urea in your product...copper will catalyze that into EC.

I'm not getting rid of my smoke detectors. But I will happily get rid of all of my uranium glass dishware, because it's unsafe to eat out of. If a smoke detector falls into my bowl of cereal one morning, I will get rid of it.

Radioactive elements are useful - but not in dishware.

Copper is useful in distillation - but not on the descending side.

It serves no purpose there. Stainless is an equally good choice, or if you want to be extra safe, and protect yourself further against potential fuckups - it's a better choice. You don't have to use it. But you also don't have to make poor arguments against its use.

This thread is receiving some very disappointing responses.

And again - nobody is suggesting you dump all your copper. Nobody is suggesting that.

If you think anyone who says that is crazy, and wrong, you would be correct. But there is nobody saying that here.

[harley03]

Some Reflections…………..

Lots of talk about copper that is often made in each country by the country's quality vvs control, etc ....

Here you can read a bit about how many different types of Stainless as there are out there, and China is the world's largest importer of recycled stainless ... so who knows to 100% when buying a product from china what the stainless actually contain ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Something to think about…

Cheers from Sweden

[pfshine]

Disappointing because people don't bow down to you and see everything the way you see it? Ahh copper the egg of the distilling world now. The thruth is you have more carcinogens in your water than your hooch other than the etoh itself. All in all carbo dislodge your pantys and get over yourself. I'm done with this thread. Have fun.

[carbohydratesn]

so who knows to 100% when buying a product from china what the stainless actually contain ...

That's why there are 'grades' of Stainless Steel. You can test SS to determine its grade. Many would be poor choices for distilling.

304 and 316 are close to perfect for our applications. If you buy either of those, they will be safe. They are intended for industrial/medical purposes. If you buy some and it *isn't* that grade, the seller has defrauded you. Some sellers of stainless products test everything they sell, before shipping it out.

As long as it's the proper grade, you know *exactly* what it contains, regardless of where it came from.

[carbohydratesn]

This has nothing to do with me, pf. You're just insulting me, and ignoring the content of my comment.

If people keep saying ridiculous things, I'm going to keep responding, sorry.

The thruth is you have more carcinogens in your water than your hooch other than the etoh itself.

I drink RO water

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

dont have copper in your condenser cause it catalyses EC formation which is a carcinogen and we don't want that in our distillate cause it's really bad stuff blah blah

Ok, you guys you quite literally are attempting to push an issue about one grain of black sand on a white beach.

We are literally talking about micrograms of one carcinogen in a litre of another pure carcinogen.

If your so concerned about drinking something that might give you cancer, then stop drinking alcohol altogether, cause ethanol itself metabolizes into a carcinogen. Not just some, but ALL of it, so I think it's time you stop beating up this poor dead horse. The information is there. People will do what they will with it. I don't think we need any more back and forth of the same arguments.

Oh and when you quit drinking to avoid cancer, don't think you'll find relief by drinking coffee. It causes cancer too. But that is a whole other discussion.

[carbohydratesn]

We are literally talking about micrograms of one carcinogen in a litre of another pure carcinogen.

So is leaded solder okay to use, if you only have two or three solder joins in your still...? We're talking about micrograms of a poison, in a liter of another poison...

You don't have to care about tiny levels EC formation in your product, but people can aim for as pure a product as they want. Even if the levels of EC are microscopic, having them even closer to zero can only be a good thing. Most of the back-and-forth in these threads has been started by people trying to say it isn't a big problem.

If I don't think leaded solder is a big problem, could I just start posting about how lead is perfectly safe as long as there's only a tiny bit of it, and about how I have no problems using it in my still?

I don't think so. Hopefully, I would be reprimanded and maybe even banned for that kind of thing, if I kept doing it. I'll admit that lead is a much more serious issue. But where's the line between a serious issue and one that isn't quite so serious?

It's a safety issue. People keep trying to say it isn't a big deal - but that isn't their decision to make for everyone else. Discussions about copper alternatives, and why you might want to use them, and where they belong, shouldn't have to be held back and destroyed by this kind of bickering...

[thecroweater]

Regardless of what you think the risk is if you have a copper column you wont get it coming through anyway
Oh and for the record lead is an accumulative poison hence the danger

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

The point I'm trying to make is that you've said your piece, (over and over and over....) like I said, the info is there now, no need to carry on.

On one hand we have the copper folk saying "it's there, it's a negligible risk, it's up to you" and then you have the stainless folk saying "go ahead and use copper, just not in your condenser" in other words, your ramming it down our throat.

You are arguments are always one sided, as in "stainless is the best, and copper has no benefit in the descending path, and if you don't agree wih me I'm going to keep repeating the same shit until you do."

Copper has varied and different benefits at each section of the still. You can use stainless in some of those places, or you can use copper, or titanium, or gold for all I care. But it's ultimately your choice.

The half arguing copper at least keeps bringing new information to the table, which you obviously haven't read or you'd have answers to your arguments, and you wouldn't have to keep repeating yourself to hear yourself type.


I'm done with this thread as well. Have fun.

[carbohydratesn]

Nobody is shoving anything down your throat. I'm sorry if you feel like that's happening.

Stainless is not the best. I've never said anything even close to that. It's useful for different things, we agree on this.

There isn't a 'half' arguing for copper. I argue for copper too. Stainless-for-your-collection-end supporters *have* been bringing new information to the table, that's why this thread was revived. And I have read those things.

The personal insults are unnecessary.

Goodbye!

Regardless of what you think the risk is if you have a copper column you wont get it coming through anyway

Since when does copper stop urea and cyanide compounds from making it through your still? It grabs sulphurous compounds. It does not grab anything that would lead to EC formation. Multiple distillations hold those things back. They won't come through in a glass or stainless column either, it has nothing to do with copper. This is covered in the docs Drunk-N-Smurf mentioned.

[3d0g]

OK mods. Time to lock.

[carbohydratesn]

......