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skow69 wrote:Thanks, Kareltje, I was only curious.

You might want to check into the Spiral Still by Riku. It operates on principles similar to yours.

I did and what is more: I got some more experience. Both about air cooling and water cooling. And running hard and slow.

Did not try aircooling with a ventilator, though.

Very nice, people been running air cooled engines forever, why couldn't you do it on a still!!!!!!!!!

Now that it is kicked up, I can add to my earlier post.
I had an iron still with a copper spiral as a condenser. Very nice still, I still miss it!
Nowadays I have some copper stills, 2 of them about 10 litres. For these I have one watercooled copper Liebig and one aircooled spiral ss condenser. I can fire a still with 2.44 kW for the Liebig but only 0.7 kW for the aircooled spiral.
On the other hand: when running with the Liebig I have to pay attention all the time and it needs a lot of water. Or an elaborate re-using system.
When running with the airspiral the whole system has only 1 valve: for the gasstove. When I have regulated that, it stays stable and needs only changing the sample bottles in time.
So when I have enough time, I use the spiral. And relax.

raketemensch wrote:It's still set up, I'll take a few pics tomorrow. I think the box fans actually move more air thazn the CPU fans, and the air gap is a big deal in terms of getting cool air to move past the fins -- the CPU fans have to suck in any cool air they can get, whereas the box fan has a large channel of cool air between the blades and the fins that it can move.

The new SCR arrives on Wednesday, so this weekend I'll put some scrubbies into the end of the condenser and see how much I can throw at it. I'm really looking forward to it.

I should be able to get a decent stream with the existing 5 footer -- I was fine with 1375 watts (120v to the 5500 watt heater), and onlrrakety one fan -- which will buy me a few weeks of looking for a cheap 5-foot length on Craigslist. Worst case, I found 5-foot lengths on eBay for $40:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Argo-LT27-E-5-H ... SwLVZVqU5T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

hey raketemenshe did you ever post the pics you promised? looked forward to seeing a finished box fan set up as am contemplating going that route vs a swamp cooler. kudos to mason jar and other's for posting pics and sharing info.

Very nice! I have a limited water situation since I'm off grid. I have solar power, enough to power my recirculating water system, which is OK but I'd like to reduce or eliminate the need for cooling water. I was pretty excited to see your post. Thanks for posting.

I did not measure it, but placing wet rags on the cooling spiral may double the capacity (or even triple it?). But you have to pay attention all the time, because they of course dry and need rewetting. But it saves you a lot of water, as the vaporizing heat is much greater than the specific heat of water.

Monero Mustang wrote:Very nice! I have a limited water situation since I'm off grid. I have solar power, enough to power my recirculating water system, which is OK but I'd like to reduce or eliminate the need for cooling water. I was pretty excited to see your post. Thanks for posting.

Keep in mind this stuff works better in cold climates, now I'm betting New Mexico ain't so far from Ole Mexico and gets hot as hades mid summer, jus sayin.

Kareltje wrote:I did not measure it, but placing wet rags on the cooling spiral may double the capacity (or even triple it?). But you have to pay attention all the time, because they of course dry and need rewetting. But it saves you a lot of water, as the vaporizing heat is much greater than the specific heat of water.

Hmmmm, that’s pretty interesting, plus it would get some much-needed warm vapor into the air in the house during the winter.

raketemensch wrote:Hmmmm, that’s pretty interesting, plus it would get some much-needed warm vapor into the air in the house during the winter.

Here is a thread with an interesting approach to using wet cloth on a coil. Even had a way to keep the cloth wet automatically.

EASY low water use condenser

Bagasso wrote:

raketemensch wrote:Hmmmm, that’s pretty interesting, plus it would get some much-needed warm vapor into the air in the house during the winter.

Here is a thread with an interesting approach to using wet cloth on a coil. Even had a way to keep the cloth wet automatically.

EASY low water use condenser

That is f#@$ing genius. You have to wonder how many absolutely brilliant ideas are buried in these pages.

thecroweater wrote:

Monero Mustang wrote:Very nice! I have a limited water situation since I'm off grid. I have solar power, enough to power my recirculating water system, which is OK but I'd like to reduce or eliminate the need for cooling water. I was pretty excited to see your post. Thanks for posting.

Keep in mind this stuff works better in cold climates, now I'm betting New Mexico ain't so far from Ole Mexico and gets hot as hades mid summer, jus sayin.

I actually live up north, almost Colorado, in the Rocky Mountain foothills. Just under 8,000 feet. Almost never gets above 95º in the hottest part of summer.

This is an interesting concept. I'm working in an urban loft where water hoses are a major bummer. This air cooled concept is COOL (pun intended).

I'm planning a very tall 2 inch column (7-9 feet) reduced to either 1/2 or 3/4 inch coming down. I could have 7-9 feet of finned copper pipe on the down side...and I could add even more if I went diagonal to a collection jar at the end... I wonder how much length of finned pipe I'd need to not require the cooling fans... I have referenced this book: http://web.mit.edu/lienhard/www/ahtt.html , but unfortunately i went to business school (not engineering) so the math to figure it out is a head shaker...pages 163-183 describe how I could do it.

My plan is a 1500 watt heating element in an 8 gallon boiler. I know the fins do best with air movement, but at some point do they radiate enough heat to not require the fans?

Budapest8485 wrote:...but at some point do they radiate enough heat to not require the fans?

They’re not going to “radiate” until they’re glowing red hot. But, they will transfer heat through “conduction” from the vapor tube. And as that heat is moved to the fins and into the air, the air will “convect” the heat away.

So, the primary form of heat transfer from the coil is conduction. And the convection must pull the heat away from the fins enough to keep the temperature difference between the hot pipes and the ambient air significant enough to cause the heat transfer. After all, it is the temperature difference that is the “motive force” for heat transfer....much like voltage is the motive force for the power in an electrical circuit.

Chances are your fins won’t get near hot enough for “radiation” to become a method of heat transfer. Sorry.
ss

Bagasso wrote:

raketemensch wrote:Hmmmm, that’s pretty interesting, plus it would get some much-needed warm vapor into the air in the house during the winter.

Here is a thread with an interesting approach to using wet cloth on a coil. Even had a way to keep the cloth wet automatically.

EASY low water use condenser

That is exactly what I mean.
I did not take it as far as he does, with his fully wound sock and his automated water supply, but it is the same principle.
It relies on the vaporizing heat of water, rather than on the specific heat.

And it is nice to see the watervapour drifting away:"every whif of mist on the outside is a drop of distillate on the inside.

still_stirrin wrote:

Budapest8485 wrote:...but at some point do they radiate enough heat to not require the fans?

They’re not going to “radiate” until they’re glowing red hot. But, they will transfer heat through “conduction” from the vapor tube. And as that heat is moved to the fins and into the air, the air will “convect” the heat away.

So, the primary form of heat transfer from the coil is conduction. And the convection must pull the heat away from the fins enough to keep the temperature difference between the hot pipes and the ambient air significant enough to cause the heat transfer. After all, it is the temperature difference that is the “motive force” for heat transfer....much like voltage is the motive force for the power in an electrical circuit.

Chances are your fins won’t get near hot enough for “radiation” to become a method of heat transfer. Sorry.
ss

You crush my dreams and you do it without any guilt...

My first condenser was a nearly bent 6 foot copper tube cooled off with cold rags
Think I may use that for this worm I got before the vapor hits the water
Don't like needing to change out the worm water in the middle of a run

Budapest8485 wrote: This is an interesting concept. I'm working in an urban loft where water hoses are a major bummer....
…..My plan is a 1500 watt heating element in an 8 gallon boiler. I know the fins do best with air movement, but at some point do they radiate enough heat to not require the fans?

I'd guess 3/4" finned tube hung vertically should knock down around 100-150w per foot
With a fan the same finned tubes will knock down over 1kw per foot

shadylane wrote:

Budapest8485 wrote: This is an interesting concept. I'm working in an urban loft where water hoses are a major bummer....
…..My plan is a 1500 watt heating element in an 8 gallon boiler. I know the fins do best with air movement, but at some point do they radiate enough heat to not require the fans?

I'd guess 3/4" finned tube hung vertically should knock down around 100-150w per foot
With a fan the same finned tubes will knock down over 1kw per foot

I appreciate the answer. This is good information. I did however think about my plan and realized with reflux column I'm planning, water is necessary. So my dream of not running hoses will only be possible if I'm pot distilling.

Why don't you cool the cooling water of your reflux column with an air cooler?

Kareltje wrote:Why don't you cool the cooling water of your reflux column with an air cooler?

I don't know what's right for me yet. I did a cleaning run in a pot still and used a worm in a bucket...my only experience in distilling so far. Maybe I'll use that as part of my new plan... But since I'm going to run hoses to the column, I might as well do a jacketed condenser. The air cooled option is something I'll still consider if I'm making a run with a pot still where water isn't required as it is with reflux.

Nicely done! Great invention! They call the coil a "fin tube" for hot water baseboard heat in my area.

I ordered a 1.25-inch hydronic heating element (fin tube) from Grainger Supply. 70-something bucks. I then drilled 3/8" holes into a couple of caps and soldered them to the ends of the fin tube and soldered 3/8" tube into the holes. The hole at the far end is near the bottom to accommodate any condensate in the fin tube. Then I just put the fin tube into the system with compression fittings. The whole system points downhill. I thought I'd try a cleaning run with no fans blowing on the fin Tube. Works fantastically in concert with my recirculating water-cooled worm. The water barely got warm. I ran the system with no cooling water in the flake stand. I couldn't get ANY visible steam at the worm. It condensed everything. A little hot, but still impressive. Absolutely perfect for my 2.5 gallon pot with 1-gallon thumper. Once satisfied I ran enough beer/wine to make a gallon of split-brandy. It ran quick and easy and I only needed to run the fan/water-pump for the water cooling system a couple of minutes toward the end of each run as it got hotter. The actual cooling water only got warm. Easy work for the recirculating system.

That fin tube, alone, is a godsend for one who is off-grid with limited water and electricity. Anything you do after that is gravy.

Budapest8485 wrote: I appreciate the answer. This is good information. I did however think about my plan and realized with reflux column I'm planning, water is necessary. So my dream of not running hoses will only be possible if I'm pot distilling.

It's not commonly used but an air-cooled reflux condenser works just fine

Kareltje wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:08 am I did not measure it, but placing wet rags on the cooling spiral may double the capacity (or even triple it?). But you have to pay attention all the time, because they of course dry and need rewetting. But it saves you a lot of water, as the vaporizing heat is much greater than the specific heat of water.

Drippers?

Geoff

The Baker wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:12 am

Kareltje wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:08 am I did not measure it, but placing wet rags on the cooling spiral may double the capacity (or even triple it?). But you have to pay attention all the time, because they of course dry and need rewetting. But it saves you a lot of water, as the vaporizing heat is much greater than the specific heat of water.

Drippers?

Geoff

Sauna

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:44 pm

The Baker wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:12 am

Kareltje wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:08 am I did not measure it, but placing wet rags on the cooling spiral may double the capacity (or even triple it?). But you have to pay attention all the time, because they of course dry and need rewetting. But it saves you a lot of water, as the vaporizing heat is much greater than the specific heat of water.

Drippers?

Geoff

Sauna

I have no experience with a sauna.
But I thought that garden drippers above the cloth would save rewetting them 'by hand', and having to pay attention for rewetting...

Geoff

I have to wonder , if air cooled condensers work so well why we don't see more of them?

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:18 am I have to wonder , if air cooled condensers work so well why we don't see more of them?

Part of it I suspect is the added construction complexity needed to arrive at the desired, practical result.

LWTCS wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:39 am

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:18 am I have to wonder , if air cooled condensers work so well why we don't see more of them?

Part of it I suspect is the added construction complexity needed to arrive at the desired, practical result.

That is a very big part of it yes.

The one on my gin still performs really well and I enjoy using it more, due to the fact I can run it anywhere without needing water.

But the thought of building a much bigger scale one to go on the main still does not attract me.

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:18 am I have to wonder, if air cooled condensers work so well why we don't see more of them?

Perhaps best suited where the air is more cold and less humid.
And when you need or wish to conserve water.
Or if making the water available involves pumps (which in turn need power which may not be available)
and plumbing; perhaps also needed for draining the water away...

When I distilled on the farm I used a little petrol (gasoline) pump to my Liebig condenser... (No electric power).
I later used a worm in a bucket system when the pump died. Filled the 30 Imperial gallon 'bucket' by hand.
(Later the 14,000 hectare grass fire melted the big rainwater storage tank by the shed so I moved the still to our house in town.)

Air cooling would probably have been ideal but in a cooler area than ours...

So.

Horses for courses.

Geoff

P. S. The air cooled condenser looks amazingly simple. G.