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I agree. In theory it shouldn’t touch the wash, but, Murphy isn’t going to let that Law hold very long!

Still a great idea, I may use something like that in the cold months.
If things go well I may be on my way to the big leagues come late August.

GCB3, nice idea.

Shine, I tried on a strip run and got no butter, but I didn’t air it, ran and went straight to collection jar.

I’ll try from scratch and fresh wash this week. Diff recipe than you, but uses red star bakers yeast.

Will report finding here with wash recipe, temps and times.

Cheers, John

JohnsMyName wrote:GCB3, nice idea.

Shine, I tried on a strip run and got no butter, but I didn’t air it, ran and went straight to collection jar.

I’ll try from scratch and fresh wash this week. Diff recipe than you, but uses red star bakers yeast.

Will report finding here with wash recipe, temps and times.

Cheers, John

His works with makers yeast just fine. It’s what I used

Hey hpby, did you use Redstar, or Fleischmans?
Nevermind - reviewing back pages, 'butterpants' used Redstar - my wash had high quality molasses and not blackstrap or feed, and the red wheat. I think it's the red wheat somehow. Or possibly not blackstrap? Anyone got this without using blackstrap or feed molasses?

I'm doing a wash with blackstrap molasses this wash and gonna make sure I get butter this time damnit.

distiller_dresden wrote:Hey hpby, did you use Redstar, or Fleischmans?
Nevermind - reviewing back pages, 'butterpants' used Redstar - my wash had high quality molasses and not blackstrap or feed, and the red wheat. I think it's the red wheat somehow. Or possibly not blackstrap? Anyone got this without using blackstrap or feed molasses?

I'm doing a wash with blackstrap molasses this wash and gonna make sure I get butter this time damnit.

I’m wondering about the fancy molasses too as I’m about to start my second mash....

distiller_dresden wrote:Hey hpby, did you use Redstar, or Fleischmans?
Nevermind - reviewing back pages, 'butterpants' used Redstar - my wash had high quality molasses and not blackstrap or feed, and the red wheat. I think it's the red wheat somehow. Or possibly not blackstrap? Anyone got this without using blackstrap or feed molasses?

I'm doing a wash with blackstrap molasses this wash and gonna make sure I get butter this time damnit.

Yep Redstar Active Dry Yeast. Get it by the pound brick on Amazon

I would have though that Bakers yeast was Bakers yeast regardless of brand .....that's why its called bakers yeast isn't it ?
Saccharomyces cerevisiae ...where is The Baker when ya need him ?

I’m using fancy molasses and didn’t get butter first try, but it was a strip run that went right into a collection jar with other strips, so could have just been lost.

I'm glad you all have done theses experiments for me. lol

Its saved me some money and time BUT none the less, it shows me that it's possible that the specific ingredients I used may have a larger part in the process.

I should be able to heat mine up sometime this week and run this weekend, possibly have enough for a collective 3 gallons of good rum.

For those who've tried without success try using the ingredients in the original recipe and follow without any additives or deviation.

The first one to try this got the butter, I don't see how some are not.

I know my still is different, and some other things may factor in and I'm confident if followed you'll get the same results.

Well, the original was bakers yeast, feed molasses, brown sugar.

I used bakers yeast, high quality molasses, brown sugar, red wheat.

I think high quality molasses, actually... I think that blackstrap or feed molasses -- I think the minerals, and this is TOTAL spitballing, but I think the mineral content has something to do with the diacetyl/butter effect. A couple people who've used high quality got no butter.

V.Interesting.

ShineOn, can you indicate products and/or brand names used in your original post for reference? I've got this recipe on my list but a couple in front of it and I'll probably be doing 5-10 gallons worth of molly in sequential runs reusing dunder and feints for the duration of that run. I've been tasting some commercial sipping rums and now really want to make some. Not so much into mixers myself but nice to have in the likker-cabinet too.

Cheers!
-js

Saltbush Bill wrote:I would have though that Bakers yeast was Bakers yeast regardless of brand .....that's why its called bakers yeast isn't it ?
Saccharomyces cerevisiae ...where is The Baker when ya need him ?

Yes, here I am.
And yes, I expect Baker's Yeast will be pretty much the same regardless of brand. Almost certainly interchangeable by the baker.
Once I got a few (500g ?) packages of wine yeast that had passed their use by date, from the local winery, so long ago I forget exactly how it worked but it seemed fine.
But all the rest of my yeast has been Baker's Yeast. Why? Because it has been more or less free! Mostly sugar ferments or largely sugar...
However for fruit ferments I have used natural yeast, on the theory that the yeast on the skins of the fruit will be the best yeast for THAT fruit.

Geoff

The molasses is evolved habitat deer molasses from tractor supply
Domino dark brown sugar from Walmart.
fleischmann's bread yeast from Sam's club.

DD, that's a good assumption and the papers I've read say that the bread/baking yeast strain is known to have the buttery notes and it directly mentioned "heat"
Not sure that your wheat had much to do with it tho but like I've mentioned that any alterations/substituting may be a reason but I couldn't be 100% sure of that.

I just read a few pages from the web about diacetyl, It can be from cooler than normal range of temps for the yeast, also can be cleaned up by the yeast. Another one was infection, I know I had no infection on the original or there after for this rum so I personally can count this one out.

It's mentioned a few times in a few different links about bread yeast and Belgium yeasts.

I'll do some more reading on it when I have time but anyone interested can Google diacetyl and it should get some answers.

Gotta go to work now

Dd wrote'
but I think the mineral content has something to do with the diacetyl/butter effect. A couple people who've used high quality got no butter.

Hmmmm….I was thinking of doing this with Panela. Maybe not...…….

You can use panela, just use blackstrap or feed molasses as well. Like around a gallon blackstrap or feed molasses per 5 gallons wash, and use your panela to make up the sugar that BS or feed doesn't have, in place of the brown sugar in the original recipe.

I have done the butter treatment and am heating up for the first strip run as we speak. I am not using fancy molasses, I think blackstrap molasses? (a bit salty, not just sweet) I used plain white sugar and bakers yeast.

As soon as I am done, I will let you know the results!

Shine, is it possible for you to get fancy molasses by the gallon and try to see if you get same result?

I can find fancy at restaurant supply locally for $54 for case (4 gallons) and it has a lot more sugar than blackstrap, so no added sugar needed.

I used fancy molasses for my first run and am using it again. I used ShineOn's recipe but started with ec1118 yeast. When the mash stopped working and still had a pretty high sugar content, I shocked it with Bakers Yeast to kick it off again. I ran it through a pot and thumper and came out with a very nice and very buttery white rum. So I know that fancy molasses works well.

Pfretzschner wrote:I used fancy molasses for my first run and am using it again. I used ShineOn's recipe but started with ec1118 yeast. When the mash stopped working and still had a pretty high sugar content, I shocked it with Bakers Yeast to kick it off again. I ran it through a pot and thumper and came out with a very nice and very buttery white rum. So I know that fancy molasses works well.

Thanks for posting up! I was holding off on my next batch until I’d heard

Very nice, I'm still going to do some more research!

John posted this a bit ago, I read through and feel there's something(s) here, but requires more getting at it.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.84" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I think buried in there are several things that can lead to 'bulletproof' additions to this method for buttering; from my first read it seems like maybe overpitching, high ferment temps, low nitrogen ferment (possibly) are just a few of the gems in there that lead to diacetyl/butter.

So I didn't get much butter in my first stripping run. However, this is my first rum ever, so I don't have much to compare to.

My next strip run will be from the same wash, but without the butter treatment.
This way I can compare both runs and see if I can find any difference between them.

I have kept a small jar from the middle of the first stripping run, and will do the same for the non-butter run. Maybe there will be a noticeable difference after airing.

Got this thought/advice from Otis re buttering:

FYI, I have made several batches of sugar rums and honey bear bourbon whiskey with a strong buttery note. I did not intentionally try to create the butter note, and do not really like it in my whiskey. It just happened. I credited that buttery note at the time to using a lot of bakers yeast along with a hot/fast ferment. It may be more complex than than, but I did not do any testing to isolate the source.

From the article in my comment above:

"The reasons and mechanisms for α‐acetolactate secretion are not fully understood, but may involve protecting the yeast from carbonyl stress 20. The α‐acetolactate then spontaneously decarboxylates, either oxidatively or non‐oxidatively, forming either diacetyl or acetoin respectively, and in both cases releasing carbon dioxide. The non‐oxidative decarboxylation into acetoin can be encouraged by heating under anaerobic conditions and by maintaining a low redox potential in the wort 21. Diacetyl production thus increases with increasing valine biosynthesis, which in turn depends on the cell's need for and access to valine and other amino acids. Hence, fermentation conditions favouring rapid yeast growth can give rise to increased diacetyl production if wort free amino nitrogen content is insufficient.

It seems to be concluding that yeast under high heat (90F ferments?) and anaerobic (low oxygen, post pitch/no stir ferment conditions, or even encourage MORE diacetyl by not aerating, and using the 'olive oil' trick?) conditions will produce diacetyl. Also that low nitrogen conditions will encourage further diacetyl production; this poses a problem because we use nutrients to feed our yeast, could my using Fermaid or others using vitamins or tomato paste affect diacetyl production? Could the ideal production of butter notes be a rum mash with over-pitched bakers yeast, no nutrients, 90-95F ferment temps, without an aeration and a few drops of olive oil on top (known/proven substitute for aerating, while still providing the low-oxygen environment)?

Could the butter be diacetyl, and could it be in the wash the entire time and maybe ShineOn's 135F heating process enhances it, pushing more diacetyl out of the already-stressed, over-pitched yeast, into an already diacetyl heavy wash? I think the butter has got to be diacetyl... Also that this paper has a lot to add to figuring out the process and nailing it down. Also why I and a couple others did NOT get the butter.

First, I didn't really 'over' pitch my yeast. I used 3 packs, 21 grams, for a 5 gallon wash. Second, I use a stick blender to aerate my wash before pitching. I also use, as anyone who follows me knows, other things like the olive oil trick, and servomyces -- aaaand
F*CK!! I just looked this up at the source:

Servomyces is a natural zinc enriched single-strain brewing yeast (from the prestigious Hefebank Weihenstephan) that is used as a biological yeast nutrient. Servomyces enables any yeast strain's ability to incorporate essential nutrients into its cellular structure while providing a high concentration of zinc that is essential for healthy alcoholic fermentation. Tested in breweries around the world, it has been proven to:

•Cut down fermentation time
•Increase flocculation
•Greatly reduce harsh sulfur notes
•Improve the health and viability of yeast.
•Reduce levels of diacetyl at the end of primary fermentation
•Produce faster, more complete attenuations
•Increase yeast production for a better harvest
•Improve the quality of the finished product

Now I'm wondering if I can possibly achieve levels of diacetyl to overpower the servo in my wash to achieve any butter flavors at all. I didn't use servo in this wash because I just ran out, but I DID pitch this wash on top of the yeast bed from the last vanilla rum/red wheat & molasses wash which did have a servo capsule in there. I wonder if I can pitch another 21g/3 packs of Red Star with .25 gal of blackstrap to punch it in the teeth and get some diacetyl working?

I believe too it's diacetyl and not esters, I've done a ton of reading about it over the last few days.

It's said that it's common in all ferments and alot is reabsorbed by the yeast, in this case I'm looking to exploit it and use it to my advantage.

It's known for its buttery flavors and mouth feel and is very common in rums.

I'm definitely not using servo in my rum ferments any longer.

There was wording in that study to that effect, that over time in bottle on the yeast beers, that the yeast will absorb the diacetyl, so I wonder if what it does absorb, when you do your heat with the yeast in there you are killing the yeast and making it dump it's absorbed diacetyl the night before the cook?

I think it's too much yeast and too short of a time to reabsorbed plus once distilled and can't be reabsorbed as there's no yeast.

Bread yeast doesn't flocculate very well so when the stir happens it's mostly suspended and when you cook it off I'm sure once the heat is climbing at a certain point it's shitting more butter.

Well, this coming heat up, I'm definitely stirring up the trub to make sure every last bit of yeast in there is mixed up but good. Then the next day when I distill I'll just have to stir really well to make sure I don't have any yeast settled on the bottom to scorch, I guess.

Diacetyl is interesting because not only is it a byproduct of fermentation by sacc yeast but also by contamination (for instance Pediococcus, some Lactobacillus and other microorganisms).

Even more interesting is that its boiling point is very close to ethanol (190F vs 173F respectively) and it can be detected in parts per billion concentrations thus once in your wash it's almost impossible to fraction out via pot still.

Hope you like the aroma cuz it isn't leaving