Hydroseparation

[Bushman]

Just sharing my knowledge on hydroseparation:
1. The Scotsch do it in their single malt whiskey making;
2. Feints (mostly tails) are collected and diluted to 17% with water;
3. That way, they "break up" in heads, centre and tailsy oils;
4. The heads sink to the bottom, the tails form a film of oil on top;
5. They syphon of the centre part;
'6. And add that to the next wash.

They continuously repeat this process. The more feints, the better the separation.

Odin.

This is exactly what I read about this morning when I decided to do a bit more research on the subject.

Boda gotta its more about the feints and what you add back to the next run to prevent having to collect and separate again.

[Odin]

Good thing you revived this, Bushman! Yeah, for the Scotsch its about getting as much out of their feints as possible. How I got "in contact" with this method, is that I read an article on how master distillers in Scottland judge the drink coming of the still. They poor a bit in a glass and dilute that to 20% before they smell it. The article said something that it wasn't good. 20% didn't sound right to the researchers (University of Edingburg?), because "the full organoleptic blablabla" only comes out at 17%. 'Cause that's when the alcs are ALL no longer soluble in water and (hence) give of their taste.

When I dived in deeper, I think I found the "17% for hydroseparation" comments. I felt I wanted to dive in, because the statement that they cut for feints and add ALL of them back to the next run just didn't make sense.

With hydroseparation all of a sudden I understood how they could add all of their feints back (well, allmost all ...): they hydroseparate and only the good centre part of the solution goes back into the still.

This method, in pot distilling, might help us forward. Remember the discusions between pot distillers about adding feints or not? Some say "do" others say "it just makes heads and tails fractions bigger". With hydroseparating feints, prior to adding them back to the boiler, a "best of both worlds" might be found.

We could also use it like this: strip run, dilute to 17%, syphon off the centre, redistll NOT making cuts. Not saying we should. Just saying we could. Curious what it would do to results. Heads & tails might "stack" pretty well, after you added a few generations to the ... hydrosepartion chamber?

Haha, a new chapter to "Cuts for beginners". It might start like this: "On cuts for beginners ... do not make cuts. Let the water do it for you!"

This chemical reaction also explains why Single Malt needs a bit of water in it ...

Out of solution means into the nose.

Odin.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I feel we should investigate this further. Do we have a pot distiller around who is willing to strip, hydroseparate and distill without making cuts and telling us how it is? Bushy, you might be on to something here!

[Stonemull]

bumping topic as I am just researching this and wondered if there is any new input. I am considering trying it with just the feints in a future run. Diluting down to 27% or less is going to knock down the abv of the spirit run to about 58% from the phase diagram, thats the start of the run. average will be somewhat lower especially if the tails have been knocked on the head, you would collect a lot lower hearts than normal I guess.

So you would need a third distillation to get up to cask strength for ageing surely ?

The demisting test sounds a bit useless on a quick google, its part if the tails of the last run.
also raises a few interesting points especially down the bottom on the rerunning a 'blank' run.
http://bostonapothecary.com/?tag=demisting

At the chemical level, the demisting test is slightly counter intuitive. What is louching is not even from the heads of the new distillate, it is rather residue left in the condenser from the tales of the previous distillate. These congeners from the previous distillate are not so soluble in water therefore as the proof is lowered, they start to come out of solution and louche. If the still is too clean and you essentially have no previous distillate, you cannot perform a demisting test.

The demisting test is therefore like a timer. The heads contain congeners you do not want and you use the ability to visually test for removal of the long chain fatty acid residue from the previous distillation (which you also do not want) to time the whole process. Luckily they coincide fairly well, but often these days the heads cut is pushed beyond the point of demisting clarity to make a relatively lighter spirit.

[Seb_2]

Good thing

............ Lots of text........

. Do we have a pot distiller around who is willing to strip, hydroseparate and distill without making cuts and telling us how it is?

I have read the same about hydroseparation in the book mentioned above and figured it would be easy to give it a try if it benefits the result. So I did, but only to the extend that I syphoned from the bottom leaving the oily surface layer in the low wines container. The book does not suggest also leaving the bottom part behind.

I currently still have the spirit collected in jars as I was confused by the result. I had difficulty identifying cuts, especially having no heads at all, and would have kept almost all based on my previous experience.

I consider myself a beginner who has a lot to learn to master the skill so before continuing and possibly doing stupid things, I wanted to do some more research. It could be that I prefer wide cuts but it could just as well be that my perception of heads needs adjusting.

The low wines consisted of 3,5l (recycled) feints combined with 15,5l of fresh strip. I charged the still with 15 liters of this mixture @29%.

This is how I stumbled upon this tread and also some other discussion related to the same subject. Although it was posted some time ago, I thought it is worth sharing.

Does this fit your expectations regarding your proposed technique?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn moto g(6) met Tapatalk

[The Baker]

Many years ago on another forum Harry suggested reducing the alcohol content to 28% before the spirit run (maybe before the stripping runs too) and letting it sit for a fair while (maybe a day or two?) and then drawing from below the surface layer.

Geoff

[metalsmith]

Glad this was brought back to the top. Very Interesting!

[The Baker]

Many years ago on another forum Harry suggested reducing the alcohol content to 28% before the spirit run (maybe before the stripping runs too) and letting it sit for a fair while (maybe a day or two?) and then drawing from below the surface layer.

Geoff

Couldn't be before the stripping run, that wouldn't make sense.
It's a long time since I read that...

Geoff

[NZChris]

I tried hydroseparation.

I discovered that if you wait long enough, nothing will happen.

[cayars]

I think some people have a misconception of how Scotch whisky is made or what hydroseperation is (as normally referred to in industry). It's used in mineralogy to separate from ores usually using salts normally, it's used in fracking shale oils and gases, etc.

In whisky production the Scots collect nearly down to nothing left in the boiler which makes the feints lower ABV. The lower the ABV of your feints the better chance for separation (cleaner cuts) on the next run, ESPECIALLY in full copper pot stills. That is what some people seem to have dubbed "hydroseperation".

What it seems like many people want to try and do is separate the oils that float up after a strip run. Nothing wrong with that if you want to do that. You can wick it with a cotton ball in your tails collection jars, from a feints container or just siphon it off. You could also drip through cotton right off the still as well to reduce some of these oils.

But I don't think there is any magic to be chased as talked about earlier in this thread.

[Seb_2]

I figured out why I had difficulty identifying the cuts. I had bought a parrot and used it for the first time. My goal was to have ABV measurements without having to do anything but I did not realize what I do now.... the parrot mixes what you collect thus ending up with a less clean product.

The parrot is alright for stripping, I won't use it for spirit runs again though.

The upside is I'm no longer confused [emoji482]

The separation of oils at lower ABV is visible by eye, I can accept this is helpful in obtaining cleaner cuts. This is also exactly what was mentioned in the book as quoted above. However I'm not convinced on hydroseparation to the extend suggested in the OP.

[cayars]

You can feel them as well. Put a drip or two on your fingers and rub them together and you'll know when you are in tails. You can feel the difference of the run as it progresses this way.

[Seb_2]

Thanks, I did not yet discover this but this would simplify making cuts a lot.

I'm currently buffering strips but once I'm ready to making cuts again I'll try this and compare with the method I'm used to and see if it suits me.

Do you go by this method and if so, do you cut at the onset of this oily feeling or do you proceed until a certain level? I suppose there is no need for diluting.

[Saltbush Bill]

Seb _2 if you try to feel where tails begin you are going to be in for a world of trouble, you can not use feel in that way.
Cayarse is just parroting something I said a few weeks ago. Stick to smell and taste until you have a complete understanding of how cuts are made. In the mean time have a feel from time to time, eventually you will learn how to tell where you are in the run that way as well. It wont happen overnight or in a week but it will happen.

[Seb_2]

Thanks, I'm fully aware that something like that is a process that takes time to master. I'll use it in a comparative way next to the traditional method.

[Odin]

Example of hydro-separation. Double distillation on the grain new make whiskey. 65% hearts cut. Left glass is diluted to 40% and clouds up. Three glasses to the right have been hydro-separated for tails after the first run and then got their second run. Left glass did not get any hydro-separation cycle. For comparisons: the three glasses do not white out even after their dilution to 37% (lower even than the 40% of the non hydro-separated version).

Odin.

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[Odin]

... and this was done by someone that I explained over the phone how to do it in like 5 minutes. So it is not difficult to achieve benefits with hydro-separation.

Odin.

[Tammuz]

Anybody besides NZChris play with this idea ? Seems like this might be a good process if you're only running rye or even a gin.