Nuclear Whiskey / Nuclear Rum and Spirits Rapid Ageing

[jarheadshiner]

Since my recent post that offered humor to the thread was deleted I guess I should swear to be taken sweruiously. DAMN IT!
There is no room for humor around here. We are a swerious site DAMN IT!

No room for that type of lighthearted attitude!
I am planning on doing the test you mentioned out in a field. What type of metal do you think would be the best?

[jarheadshiner]

Jarhead, I'd be interested in what you find. An LEL detector calibrated to ethanol would help in that type of test. You would know when the lower explosive limit was being approached instead of having an explosion tell you. I intend to do some basic testing with one but not as comprehensive as what you're planning. The detectors are available at boat and RV supplies or industrial surplus. 100% LEL = lowest concentration in air that will explode.

Have no experience with that HC. What do they run $$$wise?

[frozenthunderbolt]

As far as heating for safe heads removal goes {only this part and with no other claim} I like Odin's over pressure method.
He used a water bath to raise a vessel of alcohol with some air space (2/3 full? to allow for expansion from memory) and with a pressure fit lid (like a cork) to some 50? degrees Celsius then removed the lid.
I did this using a fan heater at a distance as my heat source with good ventilation.
On removing the cork i got a 'pop' and the instant formation of a stinky white mist that i allowed to evaporate.
On the 3 white spirits i used it on (2-3 cycles each) I got an instant, and significant improvement.
On the 2 spirits with toasted oak in, I got tannin laden oak tea. Coming back to those bottles now, (6-8 months later) they show some promise; a lot less acrid.

My only claims here:
- This is a safer method of heating than the microwave
- It makes a large difference in the quality of white spirits
- It (short term at least) not great for using with un-used (as opposed to jd chips which are pre-used) toasted oak

For your consideration: using the overpressure method you could make a more scientific note of this by boring the cork and inserting a metal thermometer probe to measure the temperatures achieved inside the bottle more accurately.
*edit for clarity

[heartcut]

JH, the boat fuel leak detectors in this area are $60USD and up. Buying just the detector and setting it up with a power supply and a means of measuring the signal is the inexpensive way to go. PM me if you find a likely candidate and need advice. Plug and play systems start at about $300 and go way up. Might be a way to rent hand held LEL detectors in your area in the marinas or industrial supply places. Meet someone working in a marina, might be able to set up a trade, spirits have been the sailor's friend for millennia.

[jarheadshiner]

HC I will try the experiment without the detectors first to see what happens and if it goes bad then I will look into buying the equipment to find out at what point the problem occurred. Thanks for the info.

[F6Hawk]

I'm trying to obtain a microwave and do a HEL test using 40% first, then 90%. My plan? Run a jar of 40% for 5 minutes or until it blows up, whichever comes first. If the microwave is still standing after 5 minutes, I will let it cool and perform the same test using 90%.

[Doogie]

Since my recent post that offered humor to the thread was deleted I guess I should swear to be taken sweruiously. DAMN IT!
There is no room for humor around here. We are a swerious site DAMN IT!

Ya, think one of mine disappeared ... lol ...

On topic - those that are trashing this method as garbage, etc ... have you actually performed this method, as described on page 1 of this thread and objectively compared the results to either white dog/off the still and/or forever aged product?

As for safety tests, I would put it in for about 500 minutes, full power, and put a candle in a glass with it ... put it far away .... when it blows up we will know the safe operation parameters and can put all the unsubstantiated safety "concerns" to rest

[BoomTown]

Just read the part about using the after-distilled water bath process to remove any unwanted heads. I'm assuming that's about fixing some 'bad' cuts by heating the distilled product up to a certain temperature that will vaporized the unwanted alcohols and acetone, leaving the desired alcohols intact?

What are the exact temperatures that would do that? Where can I find a break down of which alcohols are stable as liquids and at what temperature will they transform to gas?

I've been tinkering with this mircowave business, and can gage how long to leave 800ml of 45% in the mike long enough to raise it to 165F degrees, and I'm curious about using this to purge unwanted feints and such.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[junkyard dawg]

Doogie, You must be talking about me?

I think I'm about the only one that has anything negative to say about this...

I had to wonder, who is calling this method garbage? turns out I typed that... In proper context, That remark should be taken as, The smart-ass comments about the plastic police and offering to teach me how to operate a microwave and the insulting personal messages I got from the OP are garbage that don't belong on the forum. True, I don't think much of distress aging. It attempts to solve a problem that doesn't exist. It is a fun trick to play around with... I can't fault anyone for doing that. But, much like carbon filtering for the neutral crowd, distress aging for the flavored crowd is just not needed. It is a handy trick for cooking up a quick gift bottle and whether you believe me or think its bullshit, that is exactly what I did only about a month ago. I was getting ready to go meet a buddy at the coast for a birthday fishing trip. The morning I left, I grabbed a jar and filled it with white dawg made from mainly sugar, but with a lot of old leftovers in it too. I stuck it in the microwave with some chopped whiskey barrel staves from the homebrew shop. I gave it a couple of minutes, it turned brown, so I filtered it into a nice bottle and went out to chase redfish for the weekend. I didn't really care for the taste, the folks at the coast tried it and were all impressed, I think mainly at the novelty of it. Before that, It has been years since I nuked shine. I never got deep into experimenting with it. It did what you'd expect... cool... After playing around with all manner of distress aging, I decided to focus my energy on good mashing and fermenting techniques. My distillate improved by leaps and bounds by focusing on that side of the process, rather than trying to wring flavor out at the end.

Now, jarheads research idea sounds like fun... I could get behind some microwave abuse

Purely for science...

[wv_cooker]

Well I don't know if you call this aging or infusing or flavouring, you can call it what you want but it works. I have read most of the threads that have to do with design and building stills, I have read most of the threads that have to do with flavouring and I have read the entire parent site numerous times. I also use the parent site as my reference. I have constantly read and have been told that you can't use a reflux still to make whiskey and it takes years in a barrel to make whiskey have a taste and color. Well you keep believing that and I will keep drinking the whiskey that I have made in 2 days using methods that I have learned here. Now first off I am a dumb Hillbilly that will never be at a whiskey or wine tasting and I grew up drinking George Dickel and Jack Daniels, hell the beer of choice was Stroh's when I was a kid. Now the Government tells us what process'es that we have to use to make whiskey, Rum, Vodka, etc. They also charge absorbitant taxes on what we drink. The day before yesterday I took my reflux still and a 2nd generation run of ujssm and made the best white whiskey that I have ever tasted (thanks to Odin), and yesterday I took a quart of that white whiskey and turned it into an excellent George Dickel tasting whiskey using this process. My home is still standing and not once did I feel that my life or better yet my family was in any danger. I will admit to being very overly cautious and will continue to be that way as we are dealing with a volatile product. Now realizing that nothing we do is within the Governments guidelines and if you feel safe in trying this method, please do, it does work and the liquor is good. I believe that using whatever wood that you choose and with much testing you could achieve whatever taste and feel that you enjoy. I for one have stopped living in the days of prohibition and am having a taste of some good whiskey and vodka and the rest can make your decisions as your heart and conscious allows. Once again, Thanks FS for the thread and thanks HD for allowing it.

[junkyard dawg]

This quote from the 'Chemist crank up heat on Microwaves' is priceless...

“This is simple chemistry, nothing very complicated,” he says. “We are more like kids playing around. But it’s effective.”

[mash rookie]

What are the exact temperatures that would do that? Where can I find a break down of which alcohols are stable as liquids and at what temperature will they transform to gas?

Acetone 56.5C
Methanol 64C
Ethyl acetate 77.1C
Ethanol 78C
2-Propanol 82C
1-Propanol 97C
Water 100C
Isobutanol 107.9 C
Butanol 116C
2-methyl-1-butanol 128.7C
Isopentanol 131.1 C
Amyl alcohol 137.8 C
Furfural 161C (322F

There you go BT. BP's as you requested. Want to be a real hero, figure out how to defeat the azeotrope mixture of ethyl acetate and ethanol. FlyingDutchman stoped me in my tracks there.

On the 3 white spirits i used it on (2-3 cycles each) I got an instant, and significant improvement.
On the 2 spirits with toasted oak in, I got tannin laden oak tea. Coming back to those bottles now, (6-8 months later) they show some promise; a lot less acrid.

Agian, I think we know we can reduce head content and considering this thread is about speed aging whiskey, I believe we need to address the oak tannin issue. Beyond using JD chips. I know how to use them. How do we treat new oak so that it does not ruin new booze for 2 years?

[fulltilt]

Hello everyone. I know this is my first post as I normally dont post much on forums. With that said I have used forums of all varieties to teach myself to do many things people go to school for years to learn. Besides this hobby I build high end racing 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines completely learned from reading forums.....

have been in the shadows here for a very long time and this topic has finally brought me out. Over the weekend I ran a batch of ujsm....5th gen I believe? I began experimenting with jd chips and followed directions in the first post. I thought the results were amazing. Produced a product that I believe to be better than just about anything off the shelf. Then I started playing with some of the early jars with a good bit of heads and also higher temps. CAUTION!! In my findings trying to take off heads in a jar with chips was no major difference. Got a little more bubble streams off the wood and you can smell the nasties evaporating off quickly at around 175....worked great! Now I decided to try it on some white. Thankfully I am cautious and wore elbow length rubber gloves. When I thought i got the temp around 175 I removed the jar from the microwave and put my thermo in...flash boil! Nothing dramatic but it did boil over the jar. I belive it to be that the chips drastically reduce the chance for flash boil. But I also continued to experiment with the flash boil itself. Heating to 170 and just lightly touching the surface with my temp probe to start the reaction until I could get the probe inside and stir while still having a boil but nothing violent. Man could you smell the nasties coming off then! I did this a few times to about 600ml of product that was before I was in hearts that I never would have normally used. Its in my final product now and cant notice a trace of heads! Now not only do I have a good drink 5hrs off the still but I also have more of it. Great job guys! I got into this making spd and other varieties of fruit infusions that the wife and her friends just love but never had enough product to really age properly as I love a good bourbon

[Dnderhead]

as you know i dont thank of this as "aging" but "just maybe" ultrasonic or nuking
brakes the azeotrope bonds????

[Bushman]

as you know i dont thank of this as "aging" but "just maybe" ultrasonic or nuking
brakes the azeotrope bonds????

The distillery I visited called it a smoothing also a process for adding flavor in place of infusion, then they put it in barrels for 3-4 years. I believe it does the prior quit nicely thus is a good thing!

PS: they used some form of Ultra Sonic but I think we are accomplishing the same thing.

[blind drunk]

The distillery I visited called it a smoothing also a process for adding flavor in place of infusion, then they put it in barrels for 3-4 years. I believe it does the prior quit nicely thus is a good thing!

That's the kinda impression I have in my very limited likker nuking experience.

[mash rookie]

as you know i dont thank of this as "aging" but "just maybe" ultrasonic or nuking
brakes the azeotrope bonds????

That question is way over my head. Maybe Max or FD could speculate there. I dont think that is possible but who knows?

I think what is happening is reduction in heads and faster reaction with the chips than soaking. Max speculated that possibly long chain molecules were changing faster as a result of the microwave with chips.
That certainly could be possible. I know that in even what is considered a very short time soaking with JD chips can smooth out the tail bite associated with a grain whiskey.

[Odin]

Ultrasonic cleaning creates small bubbles of air that, by the same vibrations forming them, collaps at supersonic speeds.This makes molecules meet up in an up tempo, thus creating rapid ester formation (aka ageing?).

Heads may be partially "boiled" off, since both USC and Nuking heat the likker up, but I expect (in USC) the air bubbles formed bind with the ethyl acetate (commonly associated with heads). Bubbling air thru likker has the same effect. In fact, the combination of USC and bubbling together creates very good results.

I expect microwaving is in a way doing the same. It heats the likker up, but also on a molecular leval. Molecules meeting more often and at faster rates. Microwaving carries over much more energy than USC and will heat up the likker faster and to a higher temp. Boiling of heads is probably what's happening there, rather than oxygenation.

My thoughts on it.

Odin.

[jbird1992]

Doogie, You must be talking about me?

I think I'm about the only one that has anything negative to say about this...

I had to wonder, who is calling this method garbage? turns out I typed that... In proper context, That remark should be taken as, The smart-ass comments about the plastic police and offering to teach me how to operate a microwave and the insulting personal messages I got from the OP are garbage that don't belong on the forum. True, I don't think much of distress aging. It attempts to solve a problem that doesn't exist. It is a fun trick to play around with... I can't fault anyone for doing that. But, much like carbon filtering for the neutral crowd, distress aging for the flavored crowd is just not needed. It is a handy trick for cooking up a quick gift bottle and whether you believe me or think its bullshit, that is exactly what I did only about a month ago. I was getting ready to go meet a buddy at the coast for a birthday fishing trip. The morning I left, I grabbed a jar and filled it with white dawg made from mainly sugar, but with a lot of old leftovers in it too. I stuck it in the microwave with some chopped whiskey barrel staves from the homebrew shop. I gave it a couple of minutes, it turned brown, so I filtered it into a nice bottle and went out to chase redfish for the weekend. I didn't really care for the taste, the folks at the coast tried it and were all impressed, I think mainly at the novelty of it. Before that, It has been years since I nuked shine. I never got deep into experimenting with it. It did what you'd expect... cool... After playing around with all manner of distress aging, I decided to focus my energy on good mashing and fermenting techniques. My distillate improved by leaps and bounds by focusing on that side of the process, rather than trying to wring flavor out at the end.

Now, jarheads research idea sounds like fun... I could get behind some microwave abuse

Purely for science...

I appreciate you coming back to make this post


I like a good agree to disagree conversation, and believe this method has its place as well as making the best quality product you can make.

[jarheadshiner]

Now, jarheads research idea sounds like fun... I could get behind some microwave abuse

Gonna try to get this done tomorrow if I can get my hands on a generator. Should be interesting. I will try to get some video if I can but not sure if that is gonna happen. Only video camera I have is on my phone and not sure how long of a video it will record.

[baron4406]

Anyone ever try this with a 40abv Vodka? Got some cheap Vodka I use for my airlocks laying around and JD Chips.

[Brendan]

I'd love to see chemical lab tests showing extensively what is actually happening during both microwave and ultra-sonic treatment of ethanol, rather than just speculation judging by taste tests.

Would be a very interesting study that's for sure.

[junkyard dawg]

+1 Brendan...

I'd bet that research is already out there... somewhere.

[Bushman]

Here is some info on patents.
http://www.google.com/patents/US5173318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Jimbo]

Well Ive been in front of the microwave for a full day now. Pretty amazing really. I did 3 times of apple chips, cherry chips and white oak staves from a broken down Jack Daniels barrel. All wood was toasted and I did char the staves before I used them. The chips did a lot better than the staves. They may have worked better if they were cut into smaller pieces. The apple and cherry got very red while the oak was still pretty yellow. Im going to keep nuking the oak and see what I get. Im also going to be on a hunt for JD smoking chips for next time. The smell is pretty amazing on all three. Picks go oak to cherry to apple.

timmyjane, please advise on the flavors and differences between apple, cherry and oak that you did side by side here. Very curious on that! THanks

I have an assortment of stuff aging (too) slowly in my constant temp basement, Gonna give this a whirl! Thanks FS!

[Jimbo]

Ultrasonic cleaning creates small bubbles of air that, by the same vibrations forming them, collaps at supersonic speeds.This makes molecules meet up in an up tempo, thus creating rapid ester formation (aka ageing?).

This gives me an idea, gonna put a few quarts of spirits on oak sticks in the back of my guitar amp. They'll get 3 hours of blasting (vibration) every week during band practice. They say playing music to plants makes them happy, how about playing music to Bourbon?

Agian, I think we know we can reduce head content and considering this thread is about speed aging whiskey, I believe we need to address the oak tannin issue. Beyond using JD chips. I know how to use them. How do we treat new oak so that it does not ruin new booze for 2 years?

Im becoming more and more partial to new oak over Jack staves or used barrels that have been sucked dry of all the sweetness and vanillans. Bourbon taste sweeter than other whiskeys, irish and scotch due to the new oak used. For new oak, I cut it into sticks, 3/4"x3/4"x4 inches long, then toast them in the oven at 400 for 2 hours. Then char them all around. Im no expert on this,but IMO, the woody crap oak tea comes from bare, exposed wood, toasting to caramelize the flavors and then charring all around wiht a propane torch has been working great for me. A couple times when I used sticks I cut but didnt char all around, I immediately got that woody nose when I brought the glass to my face, and again on tasting. Dunno, I could be all wet, just my nickle and a half. Edit: PS: They have to be soaked in water for a few hours after charring also, to leach out some of the nasties and surface burn.

Lots of good reading in this thread, I dunno how I missed it for so damn long..

[fulltilt]

Odin, I believe this is the case here. Im sure I'm only probably experiencing a rapid boil off of heads.....but it sure is nice to have the process complete in under 10 minutes. Is it the safest practice? Probably not. But, I will wear my gloves and keep a watchful eye.....and enjoy a good drink after

[Bushman]

[
This gives me an idea, gonna put a few quarts of spirits on oak sticks in the back of my guitar amp. They'll get 3 hours of blasting (vibration) every week during band practice. They say playing music to plants makes them happy, how about playing music to Bourbon?

I about spit out my coffee laughing

[shawn2974]

Well I don't know if you call this aging or infusing or flavouring, you can call it what you want but it works. I have read most of the threads that have to do with design and building stills, I have read most of the threads that have to do with flavouring and I have read the entire parent site numerous times. I also use the parent site as my reference. I have constantly read and have been told that you can't use a reflux still to make whiskey and it takes years in a barrel to make whiskey have a taste and color. Well you keep believing that and I will keep drinking the whiskey that I have made in 2 days using methods that I have learned here. Now first off I am a dumb Hillbilly that will never be at a whiskey or wine tasting and I grew up drinking George Dickel and Jack Daniels, hell the beer of choice was Stroh's when I was a kid. Now the Government tells us what process'es that we have to use to make whiskey, Rum, Vodka, etc. They also charge absorbitant taxes on what we drink. The day before yesterday I took my reflux still and a 2nd generation run of ujssm and made the best white whiskey that I have ever tasted (thanks to Odin), and yesterday I took a quart of that white whiskey and turned it into an excellent George Dickel tasting whiskey using this process. My home is still standing and not once did I feel that my life or better yet my family was in any danger. I will admit to being very overly cautious and will continue to be that way as we are dealing with a volatile product. Now realizing that nothing we do is within the Governments guidelines and if you feel safe in trying this method, please do, it does work and the liquor is good. I believe that using whatever wood that you choose and with much testing you could achieve whatever taste and feel that you enjoy. I for one have stopped living in the days of prohibition and am having a taste of some good whiskey and vodka and the rest can make your decisions as your heart and conscious allows. Once again, Thanks FS for the thread and thanks HD for allowing it.

I think that was well put and probably one of the best post ive read so for.

[shawn2974]

I spent damn near the whole weekend experimenting with this and my findings were all the same.

1st.. I did a 3 cycle nuking on some ok tasting corn likker,( Im not that great with making good cuts as id like to be), and i kept getting a light greenish brown color with the finished product. The tatse was pretty good after a little filtering then the next day it turn slightly cloudy. Dont know y. Ive never had a problem with cloudy spirits and yes i did it the right way.

2nd...I dont the same procedure with some 3 gen nuetral except this time i brought it up to 165 and held it there for 15 min then cooled it. The taste was off the damn chain, it was about as close to jack as u can get but thats purely from the chips. I took a shot of store bought jack and the only difference was the smell and taste i got was a more define deep bourbon flavor from commercial.

3rd... I nuked what i thought was a awful tasting AG likker and it was like painting over rotten wood , u get the point.

4th and last ....i done the same thing except i added a 4th cycle, with some good tasting SF likker and the taste was right where i needed it to be.

I personally think if u dont start out with some great shine and your looking to make a great product u can enjoy while ur best white is oaking long term u might as well not try this at all. At least this is my experience. I tasted a friend of mines 2yr old corn likker, med oak,and bottled @ 45% and it was the best stuff i had ever put in a glass... But like a previous post lets enjoy what we like, be safe in doing it, and march on guys