Ted's Fast Fermenting Vodka

[Garouda]

maybe a new acronym? SWAG (Stop Watching Awful George)

I fully agree that guy doesn't know what he's talking about/ or lies to sell his crab...
Beside SWAG let's add RHPI, Read Homedistiller Posts Instead!

[howie]

i was being kind with A for 'awful' as well

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Topic, please.

[Garouda]

Topic, please.

Sorry about that. You are a mod, why isn't Fred's recipe included in the proven recipe forum (I can't remember the real name of that forum)?
So far I made >200litres of wash with a great result.

[Rrmuf]

Topic, please.

Sorry about that. You are a mod, why isn't Fred's recipe included in the proven recipe forum (I can't remember the real name of that forum)?
So far I made >200litres of wash with a great result.

+1

[Yummyrum]

@ Garouda & Rrmuf and others that have asked .

The moderation team have had several discussions over whether to include TFFV in tried and true . While we appreciate that there have been many requests for this including from Ted him self ,and by comments from users that it no doubt works , we have thought hard about it decided that it is not really that much different from a multitude of other sugar wash variants and doesn’t really offer any real ground braking advances to the Hobby .

Sorry Folk

[zed255]

Interesting. I thought the T&T was really for ANY proven recipe, not just those proven and novel...

[JakeB]

This recipe is very easy, and very popular, so I too think it deserves T&T. That said, Shineon asked us to get back on topic, so here goes.

You guys may recall, I pitched EC-1118 on mine. It finished out at 0.995 Friday afternoon. I had been using 2 part clearing agent on other similar washes, then cold crashing. Several people suggested to allow it to clear at room temp for 5 days plus, no clearing agents, and that doing this may resolve my personal issue with baker's yeast (haven't been much for the sweet slightly yeasty flavor from bakers so far). I will try this recipe again with baker's yeast, but as far as the wash I had done with EC-1118, I racked it on Sunday, cleaned out my fermenter then dumped it back in somewhat aggressively to de gass and it has sat since. There is a nice thin yeast cake starting to form, it is starting to look clearer. I will probably rack it again and dump it in my boiler this weekend. I will let you guys know how it comes out when I run it, probably Saturday...

[howie]

stripped my 2 x 25l FFV's yesterday.
they had finished and been left sitting for nearly a week in the fermentation fridge.(longer than usual)
both cleared very well, tasted good, so racked them directly into the boiler and fired it up.
took off fores slowly as usual, then let it rip into 1 x big glass jar.
at my usual 20% abv shut down, the collection jar was about 43%.
so as the product still felt, smelt and tasted ok, so i let it go until it my collection jar was 40% (the output got down to 15%abv)
did the same for both washes.
2 new FFV washes were in the fridge before the 2 run got to boiling point.

slighty annoyed now, meant to use an EC-1118 in one of the washes for a side by side, maybe next time.
i'm sure they'll be a next time.

[JakeB]

stripped my 2 x 25l FFV's yesterday.
they had finished and been left sitting for nearly a week in the fermentation fridge.(longer than usual)
both cleared very well, tasted good, so racked them directly into the boiler and fired it up.
took off fores slowly as usual, then let it rip into 1 x big glass jar.
at my usual 20% abv shut down, the collection jar was about 43%.
so as the product still felt, smelt and tasted ok, so i let it go until it my collection jar was 40% (the output got down to 15%abv)
did the same for both washes.
2 new FFV washes were in the fridge before the 2 run got to boiling point.

slighty annoyed now, meant to use an EC-1118 in one of the washes for a side by side, maybe next time.
i'm sure they'll be a next time.

When I said side by side earlier, I meant more back to back. I don't have time/equipment to do 2 batches 1 right after the other. I am going to run this batch this weekend, then pitch another using less citric acid to invert, and baker's yeast trying some of the suggestions people have put out there to reduce/eliminate the sweet yeasty taste. I will need to save some of the result for a couple weeks for that 2nd batch to ferment then settle out. This batch smells/looks like it will come out pretty good.

[JakeB]

Ok so my batch with EC-1118 fermented out dry in about 5 days. Based on suggestions from several guys, I racked it off the trub, de gassed and let it sit 7 days at room temp (about 20c). I was going to run it today, but after 7 days it dropped a bunch of yeast out of solution but still looks pretty cloudy to me. I have already racked it again, I am going to de gas one more time, then let it sit another 3 days. I have a kegerator that is empty right now, so I'm going to toss it in there on Wednesday and let it cold crash until Sunday morning and run it then. Should be really nice and clear by then. I know a lot of guys don't clear their washes, but I have found in past washes using 2 part plus cold crash, I could get it really clear, and still find a bit of yeast on the bottom of my boiler. For me anyways, the less yeast sediment left in my wash the better the result (as far as flavour). Whatever the process winds up being, I am going to repeat it using baker's yeast to see what the difference in result is.

[NZChris]

For me anyways, the less yeast sediment left in my wash the better the result (as far as flavour).

I wonder how you are running it that lets clearing make a significant difference? I don't deliberately clear anything, but I'm not running a T500. Even if I was, I doubt it would make much difference.

[howie]

This recipe is very easy, and very popular, so I too think it deserves T&T. That said, Shineon asked us to get back on topic, so here goes.

You guys may recall, I pitched EC-1118 on mine. It finished out at 0.995 Friday afternoon. I had been using 2 part clearing agent on other similar washes, then cold crashing. Several people suggested to allow it to clear at room temp for 5 days plus, no clearing agents, and that doing this may resolve my personal issue with baker's yeast (haven't been much for the sweet slightly yeasty flavor from bakers so far). I will try this recipe again with baker's yeast, but as far as the wash I had done with EC-1118, I racked it on Sunday, cleaned out my fermenter then dumped it back in somewhat aggressively to de gass and it has sat since. There is a nice thin yeast cake starting to form, it is starting to look clearer. I will probably rack it again and dump it in my boiler this weekend. I will let you guys know how it comes out when I run it, probably Saturday...

i haven't ever de gassed yet, just had to look it up on google/youtube.
on YouTube, de gass is mainly blokes stirring some horrible looking black shit, which i presume is turbo wash.WTF
anyway, i'm sure you are doing it correctly , but sometimes i have to ask these bleeding obvious questions at work ....
you are de gassing and not aerating?

[Saltbush Bill]

It does help Howie .....stir hell out of it or tip wash from one bucket to another, or splash it from a bucket hard into your boiler...........helps a lot to stop rum washes puking, same with others.
This link of one of my Rum washes fizzing and Fuzzing shows the gas coming off, better it does it then than when bringing it up to operating temp. If you have the time or energy you can tip it back n forth between buckets till all gas is gone.
Scuze me for polluting your Vodka thread with a dirty ol Rum wash Ted.

[Teddysad]

The process of racking will generally degas. This also accelerates the drop out and clearing of a wash

[howie]

no worries Sb & teddy.
what i was trying to suggest is that the YT video chap had a special de-gass bit for his drill, while others used paint stirrers.
the thing i read said to be careful not to break the surface too much (like when you are aerating), as you are trying to release the co2 rather than introduce oxygen.
so if de-gassing is done over enthusiastically, could the introduced oxygen react with the yeast still in suspension and prevent or slow clearing of the wash?
obv doesn't matter if you are going to run it soon or the same day.

[JakeB]

No chemicals added Howie, I ment de gas as in rack, then aggressively pour the wash back in another container to get as much CO2 out as I can. It makes for less fizz in the boiler reducing the chance of puking, and helps the yeast fall out of suspension. As far as NZChris's comment, it is a T500, there are only so many ways you can run it, it is a CM column with no temp control at all on the boiler. I use a pond pump in a bucket to make sure my cooling water temp and pressure is consistent, take 100ml foreshots, then 200-400 heads off a 5 gallon 10%abv wash so I get no heads in my product (that I can detect anyways, every commercial vodka I try has some in there, not my neutral). I run a very consistent temp and get 93% neutral throughout, though admittedly I can taste the difference from one neutral wash to another, what comes out is as clean as it can be on the set up I have. For me anyways, if there is a lot of yeast in my wash, it settles to the bottom and cooks there. It takes about 8h to distil a 5 gallon wash in the T500 (at least the way I run it), so the yeast flavor does wind up coming through, because to cooks on the bottom. I knew the T-500 would be limited and slower than other options, I bought it because when I'm done I can box it up and hide it away. I don't have tones of extra space, and I'm in Canada, can't have every person that comes to my house see my set up. I understand why people want to steer me away from wasting money on 2 part clearing agent, but letting my wash settle longer, or even cold crashing if I have somewhere to do it, why not (assuming the yeast has been given time to do its work, and clean up after itself...)? It's only time, if I can taste even a little difference why not, it's not like I'm spending extra money or even time working on it, it just needs to sit longer, I'm perfectly ok with that.

[NZChris]

Try stripping it first, Jake.

[JakeB]

Try stripping it first, Jake.

Ya, true, I have only this far done that for all pot stilled recipes. I am going to do this run, and another with bread yeast the way I had been doing my neutrals so far, except I will let the yeast work awhile longer after it has fermented dry (clear, straight in to the column, no strip). But after that, I will do 2 - 4 washes, strip, combine, proof down to 40% or less and column still that. It probably will clean it up. Note though that I did a Shadey's using EC-1118, cleared the wash until it looked like water, ran that and it was as neutral as neutral will ever get, there was only about a tablespoon of yeast sediment in the bottom of the pot. EC-1118 does cost more, as does 2 part agent. Time waiting for it to drop out doesn't really. I'm trying tffv because I am hoping some of the wheat character will remain and make it taste more like commercial vodkas do, instead of completely neutral. If it works out, stripping runs may defeat that. Stripping runs (for me anyways) take 4 - 5h. I know I'm a bit stubborn about this stuff, but I am going to test out a lot of different methods and recipes myself, to weigh cost vs time for outcome. For me, it's all part of the enjoyment of this. Right now, I have plenty of completed neutral, so definitely no hurry. I will try several stripping runs with baker's yeast and pop it in while it is still a bit cloudy after these 2 runs, just to see... I think I will wind up spending more time per ml produced (actually working on it), on the other hand maybe it will be even better...

[NZChris]

If you are worried about losing flavor, don’t dilute low wines to 40%, strip until you have low wines of 40% or less.

Are you putting copper in the boiler and still head?

[JakeB]

If you are worried about losing flavor, don’t dilute low wines to 40%, strip until you have low wines of 40% or less.

Are you putting copper in the boiler and still head?

Good idea, thanks. I have used what came with my still so far, and configured as intended for alcohol distilation (other than adding the pond pump for consistent cooling, and removing the packing when running as a pot). It is the copper column version of the T500, and came with a handful of copper saddles for the top of the stillhead. The rest of the column is filled with stainless steel tubes with fingers down the middle of them. It came with ceramic "boil enhancers" that I have also been using. They are irregular half moon shaped pieces of ceramic that stir around when it boils. Should I be adding copper to the boiler too/instead? Never thought about that. The copper pulls sulphites from the spirit, so more is better? I have some copper woll that I meant to eventually try in place of the stainless packing, but I figure 1 change at a time, so I can get a good feel for what is really happening. Maybe I'll do this run as usual, then do 3 - 4 strips with baker's the way you are suggesting, and maybe adjust how much I strip or dilute based on that result, I should get an idea of how much flavour might come through that way...

[NZChris]

Copper research.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf

[howie]

No chemicals added Howie, I ment de gas as in rack, then aggressively pour the wash back in another container to get as much CO2 out as I can. It

aggressively pouring into another container is a method i use on a beer wort to introduce oxygen (after mashing and prior to pitching yeast).
from what i've seen, de-gassing is the quiet-ish stirring of the wash/wort/whatever to release co2.

but anyway, i agree with the copper.
about 6 x FFV strips ago, i put copper mesh in the column and the difference was huge.
i was still left with the usual acetone/fruity smell, but most, if not all, of the sulphides(?) were gone.

[JakeB]

Copper research.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf

Wow, that is a great read, thanks. It appears copper in the pot is actually more important than in the condenser or the column (or pot still head/line arm and condenser in the case of this study). I will be picking up a bunch of copper pot scrubbers and tossing them in from now on for sure. Maybe I'll even make some boil enhancer replacements using cut up copper pipe instead... Another thing I noticed, I clean my still with an acid solution every time, on the theroy that I was washing off collected sulphur compounds. From the look of this, the copper actually removes more undesirable compounds AFTER it has begun to corrode, essentially activating the process of removing suphides, which leads me to a question. We have all heard of blue diatilite which is a result of excess copper sulphate built up inside the still... How often do I want to do more than just a water rinse to avoid that. I have been cleaning by soaking the internal surface of all copper parts with a mix of water, citric acid and hydrogen peroxide, then rinsing really well before I run again (sometimes I will do that after I run, but usually by the time I'm done I'm tired so I just rinse it out and clean it the night before my next run). Further to copper in the pot, this study suggests I might want to leave some of that corrosion there, but I should clean it off at some point, or I'll wind up with blue diatilite, won't I?

[NZChris]

You are getting into another topic now, Jake. I don't do a lot of cleaning. I've only ever done cleaning runs to clean my stills after modifications. If I'd been aggressively cleaning my main still for thirty odd years, I would probably have had to replace some of the copper by now

I'm quite sure that my version of TFFV, (with a lot less wheat bran), wouldn't benefit from having the copper shiny for the stripping runs, or the spirit run. I pour boiling water through the pot still Liebig after the last stripping run, then let the heads of the spirit run clean out the still head and condenser for the spirit run.

Between runs I have a fan blowing air through anything that might trap moisture, for a couple of days, or until the next run.

If you want lots of flavor, you can pot still the spirit run. I do that for my low bran version, then I reflux the feints and the excess pot stilled heart cut to make 95% base spirits for a variety of spirits. If the flavor of the pot stilled vodka is too intense, I can blend it with the refluxed spirit to get the intensity I want.

[Saltbush Bill]

Jake please ask any other questions or discuss other topics in a thread of your own elsewhere, Novice Distiller would be a good choice probably.

[BraveKnight]

I think I will be trying this one. Can any one tell me. With a white spirit does it get better with age or is that only on wood were it gets better with age

[BraveKnight]

Hi Howie,

I guess I did overshoot the citric acid by the looks of it. Interestingly enough, I got another PM about the sugars and the yeast. I am going to give baker's yeast another shot. Though I did find the EC-1118 made much more neutral results for me, it does cost more and take longer to finish out. It would be nice to reduce costs and reliance on the brew shop. The debate about the sugar seems to be weather the difference between invert which takes time and citric acid is worth the difference in the result. I have yet to do a side by side comparison of that. I am looking to work my way towards the best possible results in any case. A bit more time or reasonable investment in supplies is ok with me, if there is a difference in results. I have done quite a lot of reading, but am fairly new to actually distilling. Right now I am doing it in my kitchen. It drives my wife crazy. I have so much to try, but only so much space to work with at the moment.

One thing you might want to try if you want to reduce the cost of the yeast is so a yeast starter

[Garouda]

One thing you might want to try if you want to reduce the cost of the yeast is so a yeast starter

You can grow your own yeast by taking part of your starter, clean it and keep in a cool place. Better than reusing the lees which should only be used as nutrients (boiled with the bran).

[Garouda]

Copper research.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf

Thanks a lot!