High Ester Rum

[NZChris]

You should only need a strong hydroxide base to correct a pit pH if you have made a serious mistake, like not monitoring the pH until it is too late.

Rapid changes to the pH of anything will shock the existing populations of bugs and yeasts for better and worse, so take it easy on them and plan to give them time to recover.

[Timoun222]

While I was cleaning my copper still, I’ve noticed that the product I was using was Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), it’s called “blanc de meudon” in French and it’s basically chalk and an alkalizing product.
I’ve decided to try it to raise the pH of my dunder pit because it’s hard for me to find another product like Calcium Hydroxide as I’m in a remote place…
Let’s try and see what’s happened there.
Keep in touch!

[Yummyrum]

You will find it very hard to raise the pH of Dunder using Calcium Carbonate . It is a weak base .

When they refine sugar , they use a lot of Calcium Hydroxide ( which is a very strong base ) during the clarification stage . This is then brought back to a round pH 5-5.5 with phosphoric acid . It is done several times during the refining process and finally at the end to make it last during storage and transport .
As a result , the Molasses has a massive amount of the stuff in it and the pH is rock solid . Weak acids like citric do nothing . The CO2 created during fermentation that would send a sugar wash to a crashing pH 3 does nothing to an all Molasses wash . Likewise , adding a few egg shells or calcium carbonate does 9/10th of sweet fuck all . This why I find it funny when folk add shells to an all mollases Rum wash .

And of coarse Dunder is the boiled down concentrated culmination of previous washes .

So to raise the pH of Dunder requires lots of strong base such as Calcium Hydroxide . Sure Sodium Hydroxide ( Caustic soda ) will do it too , but we prefer to minimise the exposure of Sodium to our yeast .

Have you tried getting a bag of “Brickies Lime “ ?….. surely there are brick layers n your area .
You can buy a 20kg bag for about $12Aud at any big box store .
It’s also know as hydrated Lime .

I can even buy it at my local feed store . Apparently , farmers will chuck a few bags of it in a hole with a dead animal to speed up the decomposition .

[NZChris]

Try beach shells or chunks of marble from a monumental mason or nearby hills and caves. It is much less reactive and less likely to over adjust. Look up 'marl', which is what some rum distillers use in their muck holes.

[Tōtōchtin]

You will find it very hard to raise the pH of Dunder using Calcium Carbonate . It is a weak base .

When they refine sugar , they use a lot of Calcium Hydroxide ( which is a very strong base ) during the clarification stage . This is then brought back to a round pH 5-5.5 with phosphoric acid . It is done several times during the refining process and finally at the end to make it last during storage and transport .
As a result , the Molasses has a massive amount of the stuff in it and the pH is rock solid . Weak acids like citric do nothing . The CO2 created during fermentation that would send a sugar wash to a crashing pH 3 does nothing to an all Molasses wash . Likewise , adding a few egg shells or calcium carbonate does 9/10th of sweet fuck all . This why I find it funny when folk add shells to an all mollases Rum wash .

And of coarse Dunder is the boiled down concentrated culmination of previous washes .

So to raise the pH of Dunder requires lots of strong base such as Calcium Hydroxide . Sure Sodium Hydroxide ( Caustic soda ) will do it too , but we prefer to minimise the exposure of Sodium to our yeast .

Have you tried getting a bag of “Brickies Lime “ ?….. surely there are brick layers n your area .
You can buy a 20kg bag for about $12Aud at any big box store .
It’s also know as hydrated Lime .

I can even buy it at my local feed store . Apparently , farmers will chuck a few bags of it in a hole with a dead animal to speed up the decomposition .

"This why I find it funny when folk add shells to an all mollases Rum wash .". Yummy are you saying here your rum washes say set to start at 5.4 pH it stays there through out the fermentation.
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

100% what Yummyrum said.

Traditionally quicklime aka slacked lime, burnt lime, marl (CaO) was used, you can buy a pound of it on Amazon for like $10.

If you want slightly less reactive but easy to comeby, pickling lime (CaOH2) works great, this can be purchased at a grocery store. This is good for smaller adjustments to low volumes.

Caustic Soda sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is great, but highly reactive, use this if you need to make large adjustments to large quantities. I normally wouldn't recommend sodium based, but this stuff works so well in such small amounts the amount of sodium added is negligible IMO, unlike sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) that is very weak you end up with a very salty wash.

PH is measured in 10 log so if your pH is 5, a pH of 4 is 10x more acidic than 5, and a pH of 3 is 100x more acidic than 5.

You could go comb the beach for shells, boil and disinfect them, and all that or just buy a pound of chicken scratch (crushed oyster shells) for like $8 and have them delivered to you door.

Edit to add:
This is just from experience but if your pH is 3.5, I'd add 1 teaspoon of NaOH and 1 teaspoon of pickling lime desolve that into about .25g/1l of the dunder, and add it back to your pit. The pH should be right around 5. Then hang a cotton bag full of oyster shells in the pit and it will keep the pH at about 4.5-4.6 for a long while.

[Tōtōchtin]

Bolverk,
I have a large box of shells I collected while watching the sunsets here. I was wondering if they were not needed after you buffered the mash from what I thought Yummy wrote. I have potassium and calcium hydroxide I use in my hydroponics.
I wish I could have stuff I need to be dropped of on my doorstep. It's paradise here but it's a 4th world paradise.

The Raicilla run in the Mts last week turned out awesome. It's hard to understand why it tastes so good coming off the still. It's only 10 days old and people(bartenders) tell me it's some of the best agave they tried.
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

Boil and dry the shells and use them, they'll work.

The calcium hydroxide will work just fine, it just not as strong as something like lye so youll just need to use more of it.

As long as you're not doing some of the crazy shit I was doing with high dunder most of this is moot. Like Yummyrum said the molasses has a pretty solid buffer from the manufacturing process it should withstand a 10% dunder with no issues.

[Yummyrum]

"This why I find it funny when folk add shells to an all mollases Rum wash .". Yummy are you saying here your rum washes say set to start at 5.4 pH it stays there through out the fermentation.
Tōtō

Pretty much Tōtõ.
It does drop , but typically less than 0.5pH
I just checked my latest Fermentation . It’s been sitting there for over a week now .I just recalibrated meter prior to testing .

To be honest I did not check it before the fermentation started . But I might . I have moved to Queensland and the Molasses comes from a different mill to the stuff I’ve been using down in New South Wales .

This is a post I made in Saltys Rum topic last year . In that post , the finish pH was 5.4
To be honest , I can’t remember if I calibrated meter before I checked that one . Looking back , it does seem a bit higher than I normally got .
viewtopic.php?p=7740724#p7740724

[Timoun222]

Hello guys!
So, after almost 2 months, this is a picture of my infected dunder. As I said previously I had some problems to raise the pH and I finally decided to add some Calcium Hydroxide and Sodium Hydroxide (using more than 0.25 g/L) and the pH moved a bit till 4 (I was at 3.5). I put a bunch of egg shells powder too but it didn’t do anything. I understood that it should be around 4.5 but I definitely can’t rise it.
The surface of the dunder is still ok and the smell too.
I’ve planed to use it within 2 weeks.

I still have a few questions…

I will use this infected dunder on a wild fermentation batch:
30 L of stillage (coming from molasses distillation)
25 kg molasse
20 L water
25 L pure sugar cane juice

Last year I did the same mix but without sugar cane juice and just 45 L of water but at the end I had only a few amount of alcohol. I help to start the fermentation with some pieces of sugarcane residue (after crushing).

I’ve planed to add the infected dunder a couple of days after the beginning of the fermentation.

1) Should I boil the infected dunder before adding it?
2) which quantity I should add?

3) I would like to add it too to my spirit run but which proportion should I use?

Thank you for your help.
I can’t wait to distill it and see the result.
Cheers
Julien

[JustinNZ]

Nice pic!

I think up to 25% of the total spirit run volume is, ah, normal (as if there’s anything normal about putting muck into your still). I dropped 10L of live muck into a 55L spirit run recently and it made a noticeable (a bit tastier) but not massive difference to the distillate off the spout - only time will tell though (another 9 months till tasting). The muck was pretty settled to be honest, with a nice sweet smell and quite clear when I siphoned it.

Good luck!

[Bolverk]

Even sodium hydroxide has it limits as far as a pH buffer goes.
The pH scale is a 10log formula, meaning if your pH is 5, 4 is 10 times lower, and 3 is 100 times.

Crushed shells, whether oyster or egg, will help to maintain, but they aren't strong enough to correct a significant pH problem.

There's a mathematic way to figure out exactly how much of X to add to Y to arrive at a desired pH... I just don't know it. From my experience, 1 teaspoon of NaOH will raise your pH approximately .5 points. At the 100 scale, and a full point at the 10.

As for when to add your muck:
If youre going to do a single run with retorts I'd add it when your primary fermentation is nearly complete. The longer you let the secondary fermentation go the more carboxylic acids you'll have in the wash.
If you're double pot stilling then I'd add 10-25% muck to your low wines. Unless you know you already like high ester rum, Id suggest starting with 10% muck, everyone says they want high ester until the rum you've worked so hard to create tastes like chemical solvent, bandaids, and vomit.

Honestly the best way to artificially create esters in my opinion is in a thumper or retort. You need to get the alcohol and acids out of the water and by pre-charging your thumper with those good acids you create a favorable environment for them to form.

[Dougmatt]

If you're double pot stilling then I'd add 10-25% muck to your low wines. Unless you know you already like high ester rum, Id suggest starting with 10% muck, everyone says they want high ester until the rum you've worked so hard to create tastes like chemical solvent, bandaids, and vomit.

You make it sound so appealing!

[Bolverk]

You make it sound so appealing!

Dude I ain't gonna lie, that super high ester stuff tastes like hot gasoline to me, 500 g/hl aa (think Hampden Rumfire) is about the most I can tolerate strait up.

[Tōtōchtin]

You make it sound so appealing!

Dude I ain't gonna lie, that super high ester stuff tastes like hot gasoline to me, 500 g/hl aa (think Hampden Rumfire) is about the most I can tolerate strait up.

Take pan of sauteed onions put a few tomatoes,cilantro,a large slice of simi-ripe mango pour in some of your hi ester rum and reduce. Pour that over a slab of grilled grouper. Pull a cold Victoria out of the fridge and you got some decent vittles.
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

Sounds good

Yeah the high ester stuff is good in mixed drinks, food, even ice cream, but for probably most people it's not something you'll drink straight.

[Yummyrum]

I’d like to try some just to know what the craze is all about . We have a few different Rums for sale in Aussie but they are really expensive .Over the years I’ve yried a few but none I would say were really strong in flavour . So maybe they don’t sell them here . There are many on the shelf to try but as most are around $150 , I am hesitant to take a gamble .
I can’t say I have seen any that ring bells with this high ester stuff .

[Tōtōchtin]

I’d like to try some just to know what the craze is all about . We have a few different Rums for sale in Aussie but they are really expensive .Over the years I’ve yried a few but none I would say were really strong in flavour . So maybe they don’t sell them here . There are many on the shelf to try but as most are around $150 , I am hesitant to take a gamble .
I can’t say I have seen any that ring bells with this high ester stuff .

[Beefer]

I went on a booze tasting exploration in tasmania last year - spent a night in a rum and fried chicken bar and asked the barstaff for their recommendation of high ester rum. He poured me a Clarain Sajous from Haiti ........to this day I can't tell you if I loved it or hated it, but it was VERY memorable. I think its available locally down here?

[Bolverk]

I’d like to try some just to know what the craze is all about . We have a few different Rums for sale in Aussie but they are really expensive .Over the years I’ve yried a few but none I would say were really strong in flavour . So maybe they don’t sell them here . There are many on the shelf to try but as most are around $150 , I am hesitant to take a gamble .
I can’t say I have seen any that ring bells with this high ester stuff .

If you like those super peaty phenolic whiskeys you might be into high ester rums... hard to say. Hit up a bar and try it by the pour instead of buying a bottle?

[Yummyrum]

I think you and Beefer have the right idea.
Just gotta find the right Bar . LOL , only choices you get at 99% of Bars here is Bundy , Bacardi or Caruba.

[Tōtōchtin]

I’d like to try some just to know what the craze is all about . We have a few different Rums for sale in Aussie but they are really expensive .Over the years I’ve yried a few but none I would say were really strong in flavour . So maybe they don’t sell them here . There are many on the shelf to try but as most are around $150 , I am hesitant to take a gamble .
I can’t say I have seen any that ring bells with this high ester stuff .

You like making rum and you have the skills to make the salts...

[Bolverk]

You like making rum and you have the skills to make the salts...

the pure acids approach is so much easier

[Tōtōchtin]

You like making rum and you have the skills to make the salts...

the pure acids approach is so much easier

.
Bolverk,
It might be easier but do you think adding pure acids to your thumper would give you the same esters/flavors that would have been made and collected from a thumper after a run.
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

You like making rum and you have the skills to make the salts...

the pure acids approach is so much easier

.
Bolverk,
It might be easier but do you think adding pure acids to your thumper would give you the same esters/flavors that would have been made and collected from a thumper after a run.
Tōtō

Very close, the stuff I made was very close to rumfire... slightly less complex, but damn close.

[Tōtōchtin]

That's good to hear. I was under the assumption it would be like a flavor extract compared to the fruit.
By adding unsaturated fatty acids to increase the amount of esters which ones were the most interesting to play with?
I've been slowly digesting this
https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/aem.01616-07
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

That's good to hear. I was under the assumption it would be like a flavor extract compared to the fruit.
By adding unsaturated fatty acids to increase the amount of esters which ones were the most interesting to play with?
I've been slowly digesting this
https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/aem.01616-07
Tōtō

It's little bit like flavoring compared to actual fruit, It just wasnt as complex as a real muck pit based high ester rum, but it was close enough for my taste. It wasn't artificial or fake tasting. Doing a heavy high dunder ferment helps add complexity.

Thanks, I'll have to read that...

[Timoun222]

Hello guys,

I will start again a new High Ester Rum using an infected Dunder. I’ve started an infected dunder 2 weeks ago and I will wait a few more weeks to use it in my next wild fermentation (molasse). The pH is now around 4.4 so I assume that it’s okay. For my infected dunder, I’ve used my previous stillage (for a low wines run of pure sugarcane rum, I’ve corrected it with some Na2CO3)

Normally, if I do normal molasse rum, I do a dilution of 1 mount of molasse per 4 volumes of water.

I’ve tried different recipe using stillage + molasse + water but I’m struggling to have a good wild fermentation process. I don’t know why? Maybe because of the pH modification due to the stillage?

Before adding my infected dunder (I’ve planed to add 10% in my fermentation mash when I will notice that the fermentation has slowed down), do you have guys any recommendation about the mix I should use using water, molasse, stillage (and after, infected dunder)?

Another question, what should I do to keep this dunder “alive” for the next weeks and how can I monitor when it will be ready?

Thank you so much
Julien

[SW_Shiner]

SBB's All Molasses rum is a great start point. The ratios there have been tried and tested time and time again. Not sure if there is any mention of infected dunder or muck in there as its been been a while since i've read the entire thread, but seems to me like it would be a good place to start.

[Bolverk]

Hello guys,

I will start again a new High Ester Rum using an infected Dunder. I’ve started an infected dunder 2 weeks ago and I will wait a few more weeks to use it in my next wild fermentation (molasse). The pH is now around 4.4 so I assume that it’s okay. For my infected dunder, I’ve used my previous stillage (for a low wines run of pure sugarcane rum, I’ve corrected it with some Na2CO3)

Normally, if I do normal molasse rum, I do a dilution of 1 mount of molasse per 4 volumes of water.

I’ve tried different recipe using stillage + molasse + water but I’m struggling to have a good wild fermentation process. I don’t know why? Maybe because of the pH modification due to the stillage?

Before adding my infected dunder (I’ve planed to add 10% in my fermentation mash when I will notice that the fermentation has slowed down), do you have guys any recommendation about the mix I should use using water, molasse, stillage (and after, infected dunder)?

Another question, what should I do to keep this dunder “alive” for the next weeks and how can I monitor when it will be ready?

Thank you so much
Julien

I can only speak to what ive read and tried.

Not bashing SBBs rum at all, its good but is not like any Jamaican I've ever had (and it never claimed to be). Most of the Caribbean/Jamaican style rums I've read about use some combination of molasses and skimmings (skimmings are the trash that's pulled off the top of the boiling sugar as they are making molasses, it has a lot of sugar in it). So as I see it part molasses and part panela is probably the closest you can come if you don't live in sugar cane country.

The recipe i have followed with pretty great results closely mimics Hampdens

40% dunder
30% skimmings
10% cane acid (can vary from 5-20% depending on the mark)
10% muck
10% molasses

This requires heavy pH modification with the use of a lye and or slacked lime and sulfuric to create a buffer.

Once establishing the buffer ive never run into any pH issues.

I would not recommend this if you newer... it's not a tried and true and requires a lot of dicking with to get right.

Depends on what you mean by "infected dunder"... depending on where your get your information this can mean different things.

I prefer to follow the Hampden nomenclature of dunder, cane acid, and muck as it make more sense to me.

Dunder is just stillage
Cane acid is a low abv skimmings beer that is infected with a heterofermentitive lactobacillus (LAB) that makes acedic and lactic acids... this makes your fruity floral esters
Muck is dunder with fresh wash, some fruit skin trash, and dirt from the muck graves. this has a butyric acid bacteria (clostridium bacterium) infection, this makes your banana and pineapple esters.

You cant/shouldn't try to keep your LAB and Clostridium bacterium in the same pit because not many things are able to survive with the clostridium bacterium so your LAB will suffer and eventually die off or at least go dormant.

The Jamaicans buffer the pH with marl clay by lining the bottom of the vats they are kept in. (A good substitute for marl clay world be white marble chunks as they will passively keep the pH above 4.6).

Ill also say I'd MY opinion if you dont have at least 1 thumper or a double retort. Don't mess with the acid and muck... its not going to be worth the effort. Yes you can use a pot but you're not going to see anywhere near the esterification that you would with the thumper/retorts.