Home Distiller

As a homebrewer for over 25 years I know that a 10% abv barleywine will age year after year and develop and change flavors so I would think whiskey would do the same. Why else would they get away with charging over $100 for a bottle of 20+ yro. The most I ever spent on a bottle of Rye was $50 for Thomas H. Handy. 138% abv and I can tell you it was well worth every drop.

Burbankbrewer wrote:This is the fun part about making whiskey. You can experiment till your hearts content.

The funny thing is, I don't even like the stuff But I'm thinking everything ells that you make your self is way better than any store bought. I'm hoping I'll aquire a taste for it as I go along, learning the process.

Burbankbrewer wrote:As a homebrewer for over 25 years I know that a 10% abv barleywine will age year after year and develop and change flavors so I would think whiskey would do the same. Why else would they get away with charging over $100 for a bottle of 20+ yro. The most I ever spent on a bottle of Rye was $50 for Thomas H. Handy. 138% abv and I can tell you it was well worth every drop.

Couldn't agree more, the longer the age the better. I hope you didn't think I was advocating less age or that in only ages during the first year. What I was saying (or what I meant to say) was that most of the extracts from the wood and the coloring comes within the first year. (after that the rate of increase of these compounds really tails off) However, esters continue to increase in a near linear rate year after year after year. Meaning, esterifcation of volatile acids with the ethyl alcohol. That (as far as I know) is why whiskeys continue to change (generally improve) their flavor profile year after year. I have some papers somewhere if you want me to send you some whiskey measurements. I was saying 8-12 months is a bare minimum that you would want your whiskey to age according to my preference of how it should taste.

I think that it is still under debate as to whether whiskeys will continue to age once bottled. It is pretty well established that aging requires a little bit of oxygen to run the various reactions that make it "age" which might limit further aging of bottled spirits (unless you open them once in a while). Or maybe the reactions need the wood substrate to take place.

It is hard to find a good commercial barley wine around here it seems. I think it was Bridgeport brewing that used to make a barley wine called "Old Knucklehead" or something like that. I really loved that beer (wine?)...barley wine. It was seasonal, not sure if they still make it.

I have been known to throw $50 - $70 for a bottle of scotch on occasion. Partial to Talisker and Lagavulin. Got my own version aging but it is hard to wait 12 - 20 years.

Cheers,

-Loneswinger

Thanks loneswinger for some good information. It's the sorta info I just can't read often enough and it's great coming from all different points of view. Cheers, bd.

loneswinger wrote:I have some papers somewhere if you want me to send you some whiskey measurements. I was saying 8-12 months is a bare minimum that you would want your whiskey to age according to my preference of how it should taste.

It is hard to find a good commercial barley wine around here it seems. I think it was Bridgeport brewing that used to make a barley wine called "Old Knucklehead" or something like that. I really loved that beer (wine?)...barley wine. It was seasonal, not sure if they still make it.

I have been known to throw $50 - $70 for a bottle of scotch on occasion. Partial to Talisker and Lagavulin. Got my own version aging but it is hard to wait 12 - 20 years.

Cheers,

-Loneswinger

You should be able to get Sierra Nevada Bigfoot no? That is one that definitely needs a few years for the hops to die down. For some reason Anchor old Foghorn has gotten pretty sweet. That could also use a few years to eat up that sugar. Anything you could send me about aging would be a blessing. I also love the Van Winkle products. The 13 yro rye is fantastic and for $40.

Yeah I can get big foot, I guess I just don't care for it too much. It's ok but (obviously) forgettable.

Yeah I will look up those again papers for you, and send them when I get a chance. Might have to be by email though if that is ok, I will PM you when I find them. (There is one in particular I am thinking of, but it will take me a bit to find)

-Cheers,

Loneswinger

loneswinger wrote:

Burbankbrewer wrote: I think that it is still under debate as to whether whiskeys will continue to age once bottled. It is pretty well established that aging requires a little bit of oxygen to run the various reactions that make it "age" which might limit further aging of bottled spirits (unless you open them once in a while). Or maybe the reactions need the wood substrate to take place.



-Loneswinger

I think it is only under debate in this forum. I have done extensive research on this and every major distillery site or university site I have found has
said NO, it does not age once bottled. Now, if you leave half a bottle of head room, that might be a different story, but according to bottles
produced from manufacturers, they all say it doesn't age. It needs the presence of O2 as you have already stated. Now, I am sure this doesn't include a bottle you have a stave or two in.

Thanks for that coon-ass. When I say debate, I mean the inner dialogue that argues in my head all of the time....

Were you able to find some real studies? Where a bunch of the same stuff was bottled, the bottles were later opened at different times and their contents studied? I couldn't find anything to this effect. (Please link me a journal article if you found one)

Probably good to assume that it will not age once bottled for our purposes. Would still be interesting to know though.

-Loneswinger

blind drunk wrote:Thanks loneswinger for some good information. It's the sorta info I just can't read often enough and it's great coming from all different points of view. Cheers, bd.

Well, it is hard to find what you're looking for sometimes when searching. It's good to be able to find reliable info from different sources for sure. Thanks for seeing it the same way that I do. However, fear of duplicate posting is part of the reason why I pretty much just communicate with board members via PM now.

I don't want to upset the management, and don't want to just say "read, read and read" so....

-Loneswinger

As far as aging goes, the spirits get older but they don't continue to age like they do in a barrel because they are no longer exposed to the charred oak... The flavor may change a bit, with or without the introduction of air or sunlight, depending on the spirits... So "aging" becomes a relative term...

However, fear of duplicate posting is part of the reason why I pretty much just communicate with board members via PM now.

Somethings are worth repeating bd.

So how long do you age or more correctly, how long did it last before it was gone?

Burbankbrewer wrote:So how long do you age or more correctly, how long did it last before it was gone?

I haven't aged anything for much more than a year maybe 1.5 years?, but I am trying to change my ways. I have two 5 gallon fills right now that are about 4 months old and are untouched, I plan to let them go for a couple of years, and I am preparing for more that can last longer. I did two 5 gallon fills in December/January which are currently my oldest but are getting dangerously low. Both are down to under 2 gallons. I had to take out about 2/3 the oak recently. They keep getting better and I keep wishing I would have waited before drinking them, but then I keep drinking them anyway. I think the only way out of this vicious cycle is to make way more than you (and your "friends") can drink, at least until you have a nice aged back stock.

The problem is, what is way more than you can drink? I started by filling 1 gallon containers, they barely made it a couple months. I upgraded to the 6 gallon carboys, but still can't seem to age for much more than a year. I think a more appropriate volume would be 25 gallon batches, but this would be a lot of work with my current still capacity, and would kill variety. So I think I will go with (and recommend) a bunch of 6 gallon containers with different types of whiskeys. The other option would be to get rid of your friends, or perhaps teach them to distill. I am guessing I give away 10 to 20 times more than I drink myself.

rad14701 wrote:As far as aging goes, the spirits get older but they don't continue to age like they do in a barrel because they are no longer exposed to the charred oak... The flavor may change a bit, with or without the introduction of air or sunlight, depending on the spirits... So "aging" becomes a relative term...

Got ya. What I would like to know is if the concentrations of esters will continue to increase or not.

-Loneswinger

According to what I read the esters do increase, but how fast, I dunno. You realize that the esters are probably half of the taste perception. Try drinking something and hold your nose, taste different don't it.

loneswinger wrote:Thanks for that coon-ass. When I say debate, I mean the inner dialogue that argues in my head all of the time....

Were you able to find some real studies? Where a bunch of the same stuff was bottled, the bottles were later opened at different times and their contents studied? I couldn't find anything to this effect. (Please link me a journal article if you found one)

Probably good to assume that it will not age once bottled for our purposes. Would still be interesting to know though.

-Loneswinger

I think being able to find studies on aging is stretching it....of course, give me a grant and I will do one.
I am curious as to how one would "scientifically" analyze if something is aging. Maybe mass spectrometry?
However, here are some sources from the University of Edinburgh.

http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/jhb/whisky/glossary.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
(look at age statement)

and if you go to manufacturer sites, they all state it doesn't age once bottled. But, like Rad said, what is the definition of aging.
I would love to see a technical one.

The analysis is by gas-liquid chromatography (GLC). I read that they are experimenting with wood grown in different places and age of trees too. So there is a lot going on in some distilleries. I recently had the Makers 46 which is Makers with a few months of extra aging with a dozen barrel staves. It's pretty good.

Hey Loneswinger, why don't you use the solera method and top up your age hooched as it depletes with newer stuff. I just blended to differently aged likkers and seems to work, at least so far. Not sure I spelled solera right bd.

blind drunk wrote:Hey Loneswinger, why don't you use the solera method and top up your age hooched as it depletes with newer stuff. I just blended to differently aged likkers and seems to work, at least so far. Not sure I spelled solera right bd.

That's what I have been doing. I can't keep my jugs full for some reason, lol. Didn't know they invented a term for doing that.

What size still is the ideal for home use? How fast should I be running with a half barrel?

blind drunk wrote:Hey Loneswinger, why don't you use the solera method and top up your age hooched as it depletes with newer stuff. I just blended to differently aged likkers and seems to work, at least so far. Not sure I spelled solera right bd.

Yeah I might do that. Prob is I always make a different drink almost every batch. Plus the aged stuff is so good I don't want to taint it with new make. If I could Solera method it out to at least 3 steps I would be ok with it. The fill goes like a backward wave right? Say you have 5 steps (barrels). One day you make 2 gallons of new make. You first pull 2 gallons out of barrel five, then replace that with 2 gallons from barrel four, then replace that with 2 gallons from barrel 3...eventually you have made the space in barrel one for the new make. Is this correct? What is the order you change the wood out as it depletes? Or does that matter?

My current method (the random chaotic method) is just starting to get ahead. I don't think I will be touching the last two whiskeys I made for a while (about 4 months old now) until I deplete my 10-11 month old stock.

Got a new whiskey in the works (still in thought process): about a 20 liter batch of 60%. Thinking 1/3 peated malt, 2/3 two-row, and a yet to be specified amount of heather. Double pot still, age on used bourbon oak for one year, then switch to used port or sherry oak for remainder. Contemplating supplementing some of the two-row with some specialty malts but not sure if it is worth it. Thoughts? (Besides your mouths drooling of course, mine is )

Cheers guys, I like this thread,

-Loneswinger

Burbankbrewer wrote:What size still is the ideal for home use?

Well, I have been making 20 liter batches, and you have read where that has gotten me.

Burbankbrewer wrote: How fast should I be running with a half barrel?

I have interpreted that question about 5 different ways now. Can you be more specific?

On a spirit run. 3 hrs 700ml right now. Still head 172'

My problem is either 1 drop a sec or less to 3 to 4 drops a sec. I need more control on my gas valve.

I run it a hell of lot faster than that. Like 3-5 liters/hour, but I always double distill now.

-Loneswinger

Here is my 1st Bourbon on charred medium toast sticks @ 60% abv 2nd day. Gotta long way to go. Sittin on top of my rye fermenter.

loneswinger wrote:I run it a hell of lot faster than that. Like 3-5 liters/hour, but I always double distill now.

-Loneswinger

You may want to throttle back a bit.

I just got a free sample of this book: Whisky: Technology, Production and Marketing

Inge Russell Academic Press, 2003 - 366 pages

The rate of spirit distllation is critical. Too rapid a distillation will result in an and unpaltable spirit that is fiery in aroma and taste, lacking a proper cogener balance. Foreshots and middle cuts should be carefully and gently distilled to ensure adequate reflux with foreshots completely purging the oily residues, which cling to the internal still surfaces, from the still. It is these residues that form the basis of the demisting test. Slow spirit collection ensures the production of a clean spirit, free from unwanted adverse aroma and flavor notes.

Throughout , it must be emphasized that adequate supply of cold water to the condensers or worm tubs must be maintained. Inadequate cooling will result in a spirit being collected at a temperature grater than 20 C, which adversly affects the cogener balnce, allowing greater concentration of compounds usually associated with the feints to distil over with the spirit. This is also true of forced rapid distillations. Warm weather means to maintain spirit collection at less tha 20 c the amount of heat applied to the still must be reduced to allow the spirit to be colected at a desirable temperature. This will result in prolonged disillation times affecting the throughput of the distillery.

Collecting distillates at excessively high temperatures also increases spirit losses through evaperation. Malt whiskey distillation is therefor facilitated by the low ambient air and water temperatures pervalent during the winter months.

The original gravity of wash impacts on spirit quality, and it has been determined that OG's in the range of 1.045-50 encourage the formation of esters, thus imparting a fruity, sweet aroma to the finished product.

This book also says stills made of copper remove foul smelling sulfur compounds and copper contributes to ester formation.

My head is stainless steel. If oils are coating the still, I don't see how copper makes that much difference.

I remember Elmer T Lee saying @ Buffalo Trace their OG is 1.060 and they ferment @ 65'F.

fwiw When making beer, the pitching rate and aeration rate also affect esters.

Burbankbrewer wrote:

loneswinger wrote:I run it a hell of lot faster than that. Like 3-5 liters/hour, but I always double distill now.

-Loneswinger

You may want to throttle back a bit.

I just got a free sample of this book: Whisky: Technology, Production and Marketing

Inge Russell Academic Press, 2003 - 366 pages

The rate of spirit distllation is critical. Too rapid a distillation will result in an and unpaltable spirit that is fiery in aroma and taste, lacking a proper cogener balance. Foreshots and middle cuts should be carefully and gently distilled to ensure adequate reflux with foreshots completely purging the oily residues, which cling to the internal still surfaces, from the still. It is these residues that form the basis of the demisting test. Slow spirit collection ensures the production of a clean spirit, free from unwanted adverse aroma and flavor notes.

I am finding this to not be completely accurate. I have been running very slow collecting as little as a liter every hour and a half while I get a feel for running my newly built pot still. The distillate is coming off very harsh and burns. In doing some searching this appears to be a fairly common problem when you run too slow.

I am finding this to not be completely accurate. I have been running very slow collecting as little as a liter every hour and a half while I get a feel for running my newly built pot still. The distillate is coming off very harsh and burns. In doing some searching this appears to be a fairly common problem when you run too slow.

He is saying 20 C is max distillate temperature. I've never even checked. I only looked at the head temp and drip rate. Next time I will tho. I don't know what your distilling so I can't say. If it's harsh it could be the wash. It should burn a little because it's high proof alcohol.

UJSM

I would try another wash without sugar, 1.050-1.060, ale yeast, ferment 65-70 degrees, let it clear.