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Dnderhead wrote:just to point something out,,acetone,methanol etc.(fores), are not higher alcohols,,they are lower alcohols.
(this mite save some confusion down the road)

Thank you, Dunder for the correction. Higher alcohols are the fusels with a HIGHER boiling point that come out in tails. Too much of my own stuff while posting.

Swine,

I pondered that point for a good long time before posting the other day. Its not language that I'm comfortable with so I just left it simple. I agree with you generally, but have a question. Aren't these alcohols in solution also azeotropes and also subject to the rules governing the boiling points (or vapor pressure) of azeotropes.

Thats why I wrote 'selectively'... Also, considering that ethanol is the main constituent and the other alcohols are present in far smaller amounts. I didn't think the notion that 'higher alcohols are evaporating' was quite correct... It may be a very small change in the percentage of the 'lower' alcohols that is responsible, but I'm still not ready to attribute the change in flavor and smell during 24 hours of airing to evaporation. I think its something else, mostly....

junkyard dawg wrote:Swine,

I pondered that point for a good long time before posting the other day. Its not language that I'm comfortable with so I just left it simple. I agree with you generally, but have a question. Aren't these alcohols in solution also azeotropes and also subject to the rules governing the boiling points (or vapor pressure) of azeotropes.

Thats why I wrote 'selectively'... Also, considering that ethanol is the main constituent and the other alcohols are present in far smaller amounts. I didn't think the notion that 'higher alcohols are evaporating' was quite correct... It may be a very small change in the percentage of the 'lower' alcohols that is responsible, but I'm still not ready to attribute the change in flavor and smell during 24 hours of airing to evaporation. I think its something else, mostly....

Most do to one extent or another, but methyl alcohol, for instance, does not form an azeotrope with water. Being an azeotrope with water defines the amount of separation you can achieve with simple distillation, and different alcohols will have significantly different azeotropic ratios. The best indicator I know of that predicts volatility would be equilibrium vapor pressure.

As far as evaporation being responsible for the change in flavor and smell during airing...I would guess that it has some effect, but it is unlikely that it is the sole explanation...I believe there are several things going on that result in changes in the distillate. One of which may be evaporation, another of which could be numerous chemical changes in compounds that are present in a newly created, higher alcohol percentage, solution.

After reading the last few post my mind is also pondering the effect of temperature during airing. There are so many variables that what works for one, may not work for the next. I wonder if Mr. P just thought of a grenade
and pulled the pin to watch the carnage evolve! LOL Lets hear back from the O.P.! Any thoughts on what has been posted?

Let me take a stab at this vocabulary...

The partial pressure of acetone in very low concentration in ethanol is very close to the partial pressure of the ethanol.

Is that a correct concept, chemistry wise?

Chemist!

Where are you when we need you? This ain't rocket surgery...

junkyard dawg wrote:Let me take a stab at this vocabulary...

The partial pressure of acetone in very low concentration in ethanol is very close to the partial pressure of the ethanol.

Is that a correct concept, chemistry wise?

Chemist!

Where are you when we need you? This ain't rocket surgery...

I still think this site need's a "Like button" !

No, Really...

The Chemist is an old member of the forum. He hasn't been around in a while. He was an actual chemist for a distillery.

He'd know how to say it so it makes sense....

JD I agree with you, I have read his post, very smart man. I was saying I like your post.

Thanks,

I heard ya! I prolly shoulda put a few smilies in my last post...

I appreciate it!

I do miss the Chemist tho...

Sory guys. I was busy all weekend. Our 20th anniversary and all. I was just popping in and out. I wanted to take some time and catch up on this thread. Looks like I missed a whole damn page of posts. I will try to catch up on it soon.

And chemist does have some good posts around here.

Happy anniversary!

Thanks. JD.

just a noob attempt to understand what is going on here. I've read where the big boys putting O2 stones in their spirits to air them out before putting them in the keg. Also being the keg is not completely air tight this would also allow the wood to absorb some oxygen over the time that they are matured causing some of the higher alcohol vapors to vapor off. I think if I remember correctly I remember reading the higher the humidity the more alcohol vapors would evaporate and the low the more water would evaporate. So in my clumsy way of trying to say it is would humidity play a role in this when airing your spirits out before cuts also.

"would humidity play a role in this when airing your spirits out before cuts also."
I would say a small amount,but I don't thank it be enough to notice.

I've read where the big boys putting O2 stones in their spirits to air them out before putting them in the keg.

That is not common practice. I read about someone doing that in another accelerated aging scheme with the usual poor results.

20 Years Congratulations!

Happy 20th PP ! ! ! !

I'm almost to one year and having doubts! You got any sage marriage advice for us suckers?

Sorry for off-topic. I plan on trying with and without air directly after distillation to see if I can notice a difference.

Clearwater.... Most people don't like to admit it,(especially depending on who's next to them) but will secretly agree that the first year is a HUGE cluster fak. I knew my wife about 9 years before we tied the knot and it was still pretty rough. It's a TON of giving and taking that most likely people aren't used to doing, along with perceptions of what marriage should be. I would just advise to be nice to them and buckle up. Because just like a fine bottle of booze...usually gets better with time and a lot of care....(horribly corny analogy)

As to the aging subject. Has anyone noticed which kind of drinks benefit from airing out and which do not? Like Vodka and rum and whiskey or straight 95% ABV rocket fuel? I know 95% is just ganna burn and taste like dirty butthole, but is there reactions that happen in one type of alcohol that makes then more likely to taste better with the same amount(24-48hrs) of airing out with a filter? I will mostly just be doing rum for me, and whiskey for the rest of my family. So I was just curious if someone had done some sort of a trial and comparison to the different types and thief outcomes?,

Clearwater wrote:I'm almost to one year and having doubts! You got any sage marriage advice for us suckers?

Sorry for off-topic. I plan on trying with and without air directly after distillation to see if I can notice a difference.

Im thirty and on my third best advise I ever heard was "shut up"

I read the whole thread. I think I still agree with my original thoughts. Aging is depending on what your making. For whiskey it seems that barrels and airing are like the bible. You believe in it because it works and no matter how much someone studies it and trys to define the exact reason, no one really knows why or how it works the way it does. Maybe airing first is doing something maybe a space in the barrel is bad when mixed with a barrel but airing with a cloth is good when not sealed in a barrel.

Whats to say fresh air isnt better than sealed air that got all spent and couldnt circulate. Seems to me different methods produce different outcomes and both might be good.

I don't fully understand the chemistry involved. However, cold filtering and a hot water bath always helps my white dog

After cold filtering and a hot water bath ageing can beginn

oxygen creates oxidization which is unwanted in winemaking. oxygen is helpfull in the production of higher alcohol

Sory it took me so long to get back to this thread.

junkyard dawg wrote:Pp,

Who is saying that oxygen is the devil? To the point that you need to blanket you distillate with inert gas?
I've been in a heated discussion over this more then once. And its not just here on HD. And I just thought I would ask.


Thats the other extreme. One extreme is leaving your distillate open for, ever... The other is blanketing the fresh distillate with inert gas? To make cuts?

I would like to find a solution to my problem that doesn't involve oxygen.

I don't think you have a problem.

I'm personally way too lazy and don't produce near enough to worry about any of that. If making cuts is my issue then I would simply wait a little longer to sniff my collection of small numbered and sealed jars. If making cuts is the issue, I just don't think its that terribly critical to be that accurate. There is a lot of gray area on both sides of the hearts.... Its not going to hurt you to drift a little to either side. Some might think thats not artisan enough. But thats a funny thing to think if you haven't tried what someone makes.

Making cuts off the still and or shortly after is where my problem is. And its much easier and clearer after it breaths a day or two. And it has bitten me in the backside more then a few times. I would disagree on the gray area part. Because I ruined to really good runs with some tails I thought weren't tails.

I will admit I'm to lazy too. And probably would never try this. It was an idea that came to me. And I thought it would provoke discussion. Of what actually happens when the distillate is aired out right after distillation. And or why its needed with some but not others. I've had stuff come off the still that every jar smelled the same. And after airing for a day or so. It was a completely different product as far as smells go.

I thought at one time it was the table sugar. Because the only times airing out did nothing was on ferments that didn't contain white table sugar. But the more I have heard from others. And the more I think about it. I think it has more to do with the ABV they were fermented to. Most were around 11% give or take a percent. And I want to try a couple different sugarheads at a lower ABV. I'm thinking at least below 8% ABV on the ferments. Just to see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't I mite try droping it down to 6% ABV ferments. I have the stuff to make up some All Bran. I just need to wire up my boil kettle. So I can make it up. I mite do that next weekend. I've got to start a rum wash anyway.

DHS wrote:oxygen creates oxidization which is unwanted in winemaking. oxygen is helpfull in the production of higher alcohol

And this statement here. Always get thrown into these discussions. And in my mind its like comparing apples to oranges. We aren't talking about wine. We are talking about distilled spirits. Huge difference in my mind. And there is a lot more stuff in a wine that oxygen could hurt. Then in distilled spirits. Maybe I'm wrong.

hate to say it but both wrong...oxygen is used in wine..
barreled wine uses a small amount of oxygen exchange,just as some spirits.again its a chemical reaction witch takes time.no one know exactly what happens with aging nor can it be duplicated in the lab,only parts of it can...
unoaked white wine styles. Winemakers will look to protect wines during storage and movement by the use of inert gases and stainless steel tanks. However, the use of oak barrels is a deliberate attempt to make positive use of small levels of oxygen exposure during winemaking to achieve stylistic goals. This is particularly important for red wines with substantial tannic structure. Increasingly, winemakers are using controlled oxygen delivery during winemaking (known as micro oxygenation) to assist in developing structure, color and mouthfeel in red wines- micro oxygenation is also used in making some vodkas.

So has anyone used the little oak barrels? Like say the 1-3L light toasting small barrels. Doing some research, it compares a small barrell to about 12x faster in aging. Like a month in a small one is about a year in a big 55gal one because of the liquid to wood contact ratio. That makes sense to me in a way, but how about the time factor. If it takes a year to settle out some chemical reactions in a large barrell, would the larger contact surface of the small barrell speed this up to? And how do you prevent over oaking spirits? I understand you just remove the wood when it gets too woody, so how does aging it in years in a big barrell not over oak the likker inside? Is the wood just older and imparts less flavor over time? Or has it been treated in a way that aging it for 12 years makes it better, where as you can shove a burnt wine barrell stave in a jar and it will be over oaked in a short amount of time. I would really like to get some 1L oak barrels and make some good whiskey(wich is going to be difficult because I don't like whiskey, so I don't know what "good" whiskey tastes like) and then give them a barrell of whiskey for a birthday or Christmas present, but I don't want to give them something that will go bad instead of getting better with time. I guess that's a part that confuses me about putting alcohol in an oak barrell is ok to leave alone, but putting a little oak in a jar can be disastrous!?

bcboyz86 wrote:So has anyone used the little oak barrels? Like say the 1-3L light toasting small barrels. Doing some research, it compares a small barrell to about 12x faster in aging. Like a month in a small one is about a year in a big 55gal one because of the liquid to wood contact ratio. That makes sense to me in a way, but how about the time factor. If it takes a year to settle out some chemical reactions in a large barrell, would the larger contact surface of the small barrell speed this up to? And how do you prevent over oaking spirits? I understand you just remove the wood when it gets too woody, so how does aging it in years in a big barrell not over oak the likker inside? Is the wood just older and imparts less flavor over time? Or has it been treated in a way that aging it for 12 years makes it better, where as you can shove a burnt wine barrell stave in a jar and it will be over oaked in a short amount of time. I would really like to get some 1L oak barrels and make some good whiskey(wich is going to be difficult because I don't like whiskey, so I don't know what "good" whiskey tastes like) and then give them a barrell of whiskey for a birthday or Christmas present, but I don't want to give them something that will go bad instead of getting better with time. I guess that's a part that confuses me about putting alcohol in an oak barrell is ok to leave alone, but putting a little oak in a jar can be disastrous!?

That's exactly how they explained it to me at the distillary when I bought my barrels. You'll never get the same product from diffrent sizes and using chips but you'll get unique products and it doesn't mean it's bad it's diffrent

There are a ton of threads about oaking around here that will explain all of that.

But you are right. The short time in a small barrel isn't the same. And the chemical reactions that happen in a bigger one that ages longer. So really you are just flavoring not ageing.

I would consider the little bitty 1 lt barrels to be a novelty item. More then an aging tool. Not that I have ever used one. But just from the reading I have done on the subject. Did I mention there are a lot of threads about that subject around here.