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Rod wrote:The suggestion is to add the chosen stuff ie carbonate or bicarbonate after the first run ,

if you use a super reflux still you only have one run

Not really - you can do as many as you like. You can do stripping runs with the so-called "super-reflux" still with the rings/packing removed and only the second condensor hooked up to the water supply.
Run your wash through hot and fast, put the result (avg 40-60% ABV) in an appropriate container (not plastic) chuck in some carb/bicarb, let it sit for a week then run it again with the rings/packing, both condensers hooked up and the whole still head wrapped in a coupla old towels (held on with wire or duct tape, whatever) for insulation.

You'll be amazed at the result compared to what you were getting from single runs...

dixiedrifter wrote:Did two identical batches using the same 1x stripped turbo wash in my all glass lab still, one with a heaping teaspoon of sodium carbonate, one without.

Wow! The difference in smell is amazing. The sodium carbonate run smells MUCH better... heck it practically didn't have any smell at all.

I'm now a firm believer and will not run another batch of vodka without it!

Was there any noticeable difference in taste in the two batches?

markx wrote: Basic salts and hydroxides definately DO hydrolyse esthers as do acids. And water does not hinder the hydrolysis reaction, infact it is crucial to it.

Soooo, I've been thinking about this thread for a while, and tried a few runs with regular baking soda (which i use to deodorize my fridge, it's so cheap and i had some around, so i figured it couldn't hurt), which gave me pleasant but not spectacular results.

I use "One step" for my sanitizer, and as far as i can tell, it's a fragrance-free oxyclean, with sodium carbonate and sodium percarbonate, that gives a wonderful hydrogen peroxide sparkle! I'm thinking of trying it at 1-2T per gallon of old, dirty, mixed low wines, hoping that maybe the hydrogen peroxide will eat up some of the nasty cogeners, along with the action of the sodium carbonate. I'm a little concerned about tossing an oxydizer into a fuel, but "one step" is not too-too strong, and i don't think there's enough oxygen there for an actual explosion.

Has anyone tried this? Am i crazy?

If i try it and live, i'll report back
here's links for reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyclean" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.homebrewers.com/product/6016B" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

helmingstay wrote: hoping that maybe the hydrogen peroxide will eat up some of the nasty cogeners, along with the action of the sodium carbonate. I'm a little concerned about tossing an oxydizer into a fuel, but "one step" is not too-too strong, and i don't think there's enough oxygen there for an actual explosion.

Has anyone tried this? Am i crazy?

See the recent discussion about using permanganate as an oxidant. Note that percarbonate could have different pH requirements.

Sodium percarbonate disassociates into H2O2 and NaCO3 in solution. The NaCO3 keeps the H2O2 from getting too crazy with the oxidation if you add a lot of it to water, and is why you can touch it without too many bad things happening.

This is completely different than permanganate (I am assuming you're talking about potassium permanganate). Even though they have the same prefix, they don't act the same way.

Make sure you get a pure compound. The cleaner variety may have buffering agents in it that are not listed on the MSDS, and might affect what you are trying to do.

Thing is, if you add acid to H2O2 you get a PERacid, which are pretty strong, and are not affected much by a weak base like NaCO3. So its tough to say what would happen if you used it, since there are some organic acids in a wash.

pHneutral wrote:This is completely different than permanganate (I am assuming you're talking about potassium permanganate). Even though they have the same prefix, they don't act the same way.
...
So its tough to say what would happen if you used it, since there are some organic acids in a wash.

Yeah, the Potassium Permanganate, oddly titled "Chemistry help (Magnesium Dioxide)" is a wild read - kinda like Jumanji, best to finish if you start it!

R.e. organic acids, what concentrations make it into low wines? The general consensus is "no bases into washes, otherwise ammonia and/or blue stuff in low wines".

I wish someone would hurry up and finish the universal chemistry simulator. It sure would save me a lot of thinking!

pHneutral wrote:NaCO3 keeps the H2O2 from getting too crazy with the oxidation if you add a lot of it to water, and is why you can touch it without too many bad things happening.

Strictly speaking, you have to specify an accompanying oxidation half-reaction before you can decide whether or not basic conditions put the brakes on the oxidant. For example, oxidation of alcohol -> aldehyde has a different net pH bill than oxidation of aldehyde -> carboxylic acid. However, I suppose it is generally a reasonable assumption that the total reaction will consume acid.

Make sure you get a pure compound. The cleaner variety may have buffering agents in it that are not listed on the MSDS, and might affect what you are trying to do.

Most oxy-bleach/Nappisan stuff available by retail has at least surfactants and perfumes in it. The latter could very well be volatile. Brewers go to great lengths to seek out the unperfumed varieties to use as sanitisers/cleaners.

Thing is, if you add acid to H2O2 you get a PERacid, which are pretty strong, and are not affected much by a weak base like NaCO3. So its tough to say what would happen if you used it, since there are some organic acids in a wash.

Without crunching the numbers, I'm not so sure that other oxidation reactions might not compete with the peracid formation, and that the Na2CO3 would neutralise any acids before the H2O2 got to them. If we restrict ourselves to low wines rather than washes, then most shouldn't contain much in the way of carboxylic acids unless the ferment was infected. That would usually result in copper acetate colouring if a copper condenser was employed. They could, however, contain volatile fatty acids, which are a significant flavour component.

I know that this is probably common knowledge and perhaps trivial but I thought it might be useful to someone.

As was stated earlier in the thread, you can convert sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate by heating it. I did a little experiment to confirm this:

Took 75.00g baking soda and spread it on a glass cooking dish. Placed in the oven at 500*F for ~30mins. Removed and allowed to cool. Ended up with 47.45g sodium carbonate. From 75g NaHCO3 you would theoretically get 47.31g Na2CO3. Thus the conversion was almost 100%.

I thought it was cool and thought that I would share…

I know this is a very old thread, but I have sodium carbonate. How much do I add to my low wines and how long before doing a spirit run?

Oceanwave wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:20 am I know this is a very old thread, but I have sodium carbonate. How much do I add to my low wines and how long before doing a spirit run?

Try these:

Sodium carbonate

Oceanwave wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:20 am I know this is a very old thread, but I have sodium carbonate. How much do I add to my low wines and how long before doing a spirit run?

You do realize that people only usually use this method when trying to make good clean neutral from a sugar washes?

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:01 pm

Oceanwave wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:20 am I know this is a very old thread, but I have sodium carbonate. How much do I add to my low wines and how long before doing a spirit run?

You do realize that people only usually use this method when trying to make good clean neutral from a sugar washes?

Yes, and that is what I am trying to do.

Oceanwave wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:20 am I know this is a very old thread, but I have sodium carbonate. How much do I add to my low wines and how long before doing a spirit run?

The answer is already given in the thread.

NZChris wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:16 pm

Oceanwave wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:20 am I know this is a very old thread, but I have sodium carbonate. How much do I add to my low wines and how long before doing a spirit run?

The answer is already given in the thread.

Except I did not find the answer to be clear even having read the tread several times. I will just muddle through and experiment. That is half the fun of this anyway.

Looks pretty clear to me .

dixiedrifter wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:24 pm Bah.

You can get pure sodium carbonate available at any pool supply place for about $7 for 6 pounds. I'd say that 3-4 tea spoons per gallon would be sufficiant. At that rate a bottle would last a looong time.

Your yields won't go up in quantity, they go up in purity. This is a must have for very pure odor free neutral spirits no matter what yeast your using... if it can clean up a stinky turbo in an all glass still I'd love to see what it could do with a better yeast... as said before its not for whiskey or other flavored spirits.

Just dump it in before the start of your run. It'll stay a powder until the wash heats up then dissolve. By the time your wash goes to boil it will have worked.

Which is pretty much in the ball park to what I remember reading in another forum 1teaspoon per litre .

Can you leave the sodium carbonate sit/soak in the low wines too long before distillation...to the point of having a negative impact...,or is the length of time that the sodium carbonate is sitting in the low wines not a factor?? In other words, I've seen guys on this forum say that it's best to add the sodium carbonate 5-7 days prior to distillation, but what happens if plans change and distillation doesn't take place for 2-3 weeks??

7bruno7 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:49 am Can you leave the sodium carbonate sit/soak in the low wines too long before distillation...to the point of having a negative impact...

I think the advice to let it sit for a few days is for sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and sodium carbonate (washing soda) can be added as you fill the boiler. I use the sodium carbonate, and it works fine that way.

As to your actual question, I don't know.

[quote Which is pretty much in the ball park to what I remember reading in another forum 1teaspoon per litre .
[/quote]
A tsp of soda ash is app 5 gr or 20 gr for a gal..

I use only 8 gr per gal in my feint run of 35% directly in the boiler.. never tried it with low wine..

7bruno7 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:49 am Can you leave the sodium carbonate sit/soak in the low wines too long before distillation..

I've had soda ash sit in my feint jugs for month before processing them with no side effect or no different than adding it only at the time of distilling..

Mars

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:10 am
I've had soda ash sit in my feint jugs for month before processing them with no side effect or no different than adding it only at the time of distilling..

If you have time to wait, is it same to use then baking soda (easy to get almost any where)? Just tought. Or does it something if your low wines sitting with baking soda, let's say like month? Here and there says few days to week, when using this slow method.

As we know, add sodium carbonate and your ready to distill right away.

Checked my local stores and only sodium carbonate I could find is cleaning soda and who knows is it pure or not. Search gave at least one thread where talks about laundry/dishwasher smell on end product when using that kind of stuff.

Does people use these on clean washes like TBW or SSS? I had mistake to do one (and last) turbo wash and one other s...t run. Lesson learned.

Jabman
Certainly the Sodium Carbonate that I have used is perfume free good old fashioned Laundry washing Soda .

If you are worried , you can make your own .
Simply place some Baking Soda (also known as Sodium Bi-Carbonate , Bi-Carb Soda …. Or Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate ) on a tray and heat in an oven @200°F for about an hour .
The heat drives off the Carbon dioxide and water leaving Anhydrous ( free of moisture) Sodium Carbonate .