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Andrew, when a few people were saying on a previous thread to have a vent hole above your reflux condensor on your CCVM, this was the still type they were referring to.

Andrew_90 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:01 pm Necropost.

@ Brandon - I note on the VM illustration there is a valve between the column and the PC? I have not seen that before? How does that work, does it assume that the RC stays in a fixed position?

Vm has a valve so does an lm. A vm bleeds off vapour to a pc, product condenser, usually by a gate valve.
A lm also has a valve, a needle valve. But in this instance liquid is bled off. No pc, product condenser. Sometimes a liebig pc just to cool output further.

A ccvm has a moveable reflux condenser. That goes up and down across the output. Fully down no output, partially across the output you get a % of column vapour exiting into a pc, product condenser.
The amount of vapour you draw off, that gets condensed to a liquid dictates the abv, proof of the output spirit.

Hope this helps...

Good read to clarify the terms!

I would point out that CM setup effectiveness is really touchy when the coolant water pressure is shared between Primary Condenser and Reflux Condenser. I would not use a "Tee" in the coolant supply and would *not* recommend it since every time you adjust one valve PC or RC, it influences the flow on the other, and the RC requires a pretty constant steady coolant flow for getting high purity. Apologies if this is not germaine to this thread

Rrmuf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:03 am Good read to clarify the terms!

I would point out that CM setup effectiveness is really touchy when the coolant water pressure is shared between Primary Condenser and Reflux Condenser. I would not use a "Tee" in the coolant supply and would *not* recommend it since every time you adjust one valve PC or RC, it influences the flow on the other, and the RC requires a pretty constant steady coolant flow for getting high purity. Apologies if this is not germaine to this thread

Your example lacks just a bit of context.
As eluded to in another currently active thread, you would be 100% correct if the PC is limited in its operating range. Meaning,,,,,smallish.
However, with a goodly amount of surface area the issue you mention can be greatly mitigated.

Also, running a small pump vs off the tap matters .

Thanks.

Andrew_90 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:01 pm Necropost.

@ Brandon - I note on the VM illustration there is a valve between the column and the PC? I have not seen that before? How does that work, does it assume that the RC stays in a fixed position?

I think you might be confusing VM with CCVM. In a CCVM the valve is actually the height of the condenser coil. In a standard VM, the condenser is fixed (and doesn't necessarily need to be a coil) and take-off rate is adjusted with a valve to allow vapour to pass. Be aware that in a VM the presence of a blow-off hole at the top of the column is essential because otherwise you have an alcohol filled pressure cooker... or bomb as it's otherwise known.

The common thing between a VM and a CCVM is the VM bit .
Its all about Vapour management.

That Vapour keep coming to the top of the still . How we proportion the vapour is the key point . What we care about is reflux ratio …. How much we takeoff verses how much we condense and send back down the packing as reflux .

It becomes the ratio of the size of the takeoff area verses the column diameter.

In a VM , the takeoff area is set by how much you open the valve .
In a CCVM , the takeoff area is set by how much you raise the coil and expose the outlet .

LWTCS wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:16 pm

Rrmuf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:03 am Good read to clarify the terms!

I would point out that CM setup effectiveness is really touchy when the coolant water pressure is shared between Primary Condenser and Reflux Condenser. I would not use a "Tee" in the coolant supply and would *not* recommend it since every time you adjust one valve PC or RC, it influences the flow on the other, and the RC requires a pretty constant steady coolant flow for getting high purity. Apologies if this is not germaine to this thread

Your example lacks just a bit of context.
As eluded to in another currently active thread, you would be 100% correct if the PC is limited in its operating range. Meaning,,,,,smallish.
However, with a goodly amount of surface area the issue you mention can be greatly mitigated.

Also, running a small pump vs off the tap matters .

Yes of course, context matters. In my case, my PC is more than sufficient, but I am on a well where the pressure cycles between 30-40 psi and water is cool, free and plentiful. I had to divorce my RC and PC water supplies so as to achieve a very steady temperature and very steady pressure for the RC. However you achieve that, knock your socks off.

Andrew_90 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:01 pm Necropost.

@ Brandon - I note on the VM illustration there is a valve between the column and the PC? I have not seen that before? How does that work, does it assume that the RC stays in a fixed position?

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 5#p7331135

Thanks, so my moveable Reflux Coil is my valve.

Andrew_90 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:05 am Thanks, so my moveable Reflux Coil is my valve.

Yes

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=14533 10 years now and still a mystery to me,

thanks to ozone39

edit; 40 minutes to reread that entire thread, no help, still clueless

Some better descriptions in this one... (pics gone) https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=8593 Rad's description 3 posts down
seems to match this pic - 6 items down - be warned a few bad stills on this page... http://www.allozinfo.com/distill/photos-reflux.htm

The top condenser serves double duty by condensing the steam direct from the boiler and then later for the separate PC coil as well, It uses the lower coil as a reboiler fed from the top condenser with the "tails" exiting the bottom and the good stuff as vapour at the top and on to the PC coil.
Perhaps an liebig instead of the top PC coil would make it more controllable and less reliant on the pipe sizes matching up? edit, nope, prob needs the extra reflux?

Technically a CM ?

Interesting design as far as potential energy efficiency is concerned with it all being internalised. Users claiming 95% output so way more than one or two extra distillations happening for sure - at what speed and smearing levels I wonder?
I might put it on my long list of stuff to build lols

While reading about "Re:SPP source", I came about a link from Dunkydonuts to https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/acce ... cking.html

They also make several Polish distillation columns. They seem very enthused about what they are calling "OVM". It appears to be a VM takeoff that is below the sight glass and in the packing "sucking" as they put it very high quality stuff in to this "OVM" through the control valve and down the product condenser.

Any one know anything about "OVM"?

bunny wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:31 am While reading about "Re:SPP source", I came about a link from Dunkydonuts to https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/acce ... cking.html

They also make several Polish distillation columns. They seem very enthused about what they are calling "OVM". It appears to be a VM takeoff that is below the sight glass and in the packing "sucking" as they put it very high quality stuff in to this "OVM" through the control valve and down the product condenser.

Any one know anything about "OVM"?

Hi Bunny , I did my darnedest to find the reference to OVM on that link . I see what you were talking about , a VM takeoff that is below the top of the packing . Very strange indeed .I’d expect if you opened the VM valve , there would be liquid in the column ( and packing) that might want to poor out . It’s a strange idea . Do you have a more explicit quote ir link to where the actually refer to OVM ?

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:35 pm

bunny wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:31 am While reading about "Re:SPP source", I came about a link from Dunkydonuts to https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/acce ... cking.html

They also make several Polish distillation columns. They seem very enthused about what they are calling "OVM". It appears to be a VM takeoff that is below the sight glass and in the packing "sucking" as they put it very high quality stuff in to this "OVM" through the control valve and down the product condenser.

Any one know anything about "OVM"?

Hi Bunny , I did my darnedest to find the reference to OVM on that link . I see what you were talking about , a VM takeoff that is below the top of the packing . Very strange indeed .I’d expect if you opened the VM valve , there would be liquid in the column ( and packing) that might want to poor out . It’s a strange idea . Do you have a more explicit quote ir link to where the actually refer to OVM ?

I clicked on their "Premium LM/VM reflux still". There is more info below the "add to cart" including a video and fairly long, but confusing to me description. I tried to drag the page over here but I'm not having any luck.

Click on "reflux stills", then "Premium LM/VM reflux still"

Their basic LM/VM reflux still has the VM takeoff between the Boca plates?

On closer inspection I can see a VM connector between the Boca plates on the "Premier" also.

Proportional what.....

That is an odd still. They are basically saying they have a side draw fractioning column that can collect in vapour or liquid phase at a lower point than the undesirable fractions that will be condensed and collected in the Boka LM top section and that once the majority of this fraction has been collected there will still be an upper headspace that will allow the small remaining amount to collect and hold down the desirable fraction in the lower section and collection system. The "o" in their OVM and OLM is the polish word for "lower" ... so lower VM or lower LM.
The idea that all the volitile heads components will be fully concentrated and collected like cream separating on top of milk and they will some how keep drawing from below without the stratification level dropping.until the hearts are exhausted, and that somehow the remaining undesirable volitiles will bypass the lower draw point and continue up to the condenser while the desirable components will be fully refluxed to 96% purity seems like a popular approach over there. There are various sorts of liquid traps designed to be installed below reflux condensers sold promoting this idea of having a seperate LM draw point above what is usually a VM system.
This concept makes more sense to me in a steady state continuous plated column.


There is a bit more about it here:
https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/blog ... stand-them