Oaking and aging the T-Pee way

[Brutal]

Not sure how I missed this thread? Great thread t-pizzle. Been planning to do this about the same way when I get back to stillin'.

[T-Pee]

tp

[MarkM301]

T-Pee, thank you for your very helpful information.

I'm rather new here, and in no way mean to be unappreciative, or to incite flames. I apologize in advance if I misunderstood or if I am incorrect.

In looking over your first post in this thread:

I use 6 fingers per gallon. I use a formula that I read from Corene some time back. For my use 22-23 square inches of oak per gallon gives me the flavor I like. The equation is 5" x .75" (3/4") x 6 pieces = 22.5 square inches.

Maybe I just misunderstood, but " 5" x .75" (3/4") x 6 pieces = 22.5 square inches " doesn't seem correct for surface area. (Again, i'm not trying to discredit anything you said or be disrespectful or unappreciative, just to understand.)

If a piece of oak is 3/4" x 3/4" x 5", then the surface area of one piece is 16 square inches per piece, and 96 square inches total if using 6 pieces.
[calculation: top and bottom of each oak stick are each 3/4x3/4, thus 0.5625 sq. inches each; each of the 4 sides are 3/4x5, thus 3.75 sq inches each side, and the total for the stick is 0.5625+3.75+3.75+3.75+3.75+0.5625=16.125]


Either way, your recommendations are fantastic, I'm just a numbers guy and want to understand the math. Thanks!

[T-Pee]

I skipped math and hate numbers. That's my excuse for trying to look educated. Truth be told, I saw all of the numbers in your last two paragraphs and didn't read any further. Not being an ass, just being honest and giving some insight. Ignore my crappy math and concentrate on the message. Math is an absolute and there are very few absolutes in this hobby. The majority of it is Rule of Thumb. That's why plenty of reading here is pretty much required. We rely on the experiences of each other...not the math of it all.

My life is one big instance of "winging it". Odd how things still turn out well. I have my failures but my successes are just that much sweeter when it goes just right.

Sleeping at Holiday Inn helps.

tp

[MarkM301]

Ignore my crappy math and concentrate on the message.

Will do - in fact, i already have UJSSM with 6 sticks per gallon aging right now as per your procedure. Much appreciated.

[T-Pee]

Ignore my crappy math and concentrate on the message.

Will do - in fact, i already have UJSSM with 6 sticks per gallon aging right now as per your procedure. Much appreciated.

See? 9 posts and you're already an expert!

tp

[MichiganCornhusker]

i already have UJSSM with 6 sticks per gallon aging right now as per your procedure.

I've never taken the time to check out the numbers, Mark, I've just looked at all the pretty pictures of aging whiskey on these forums!
I have done some limited experimenting with oak sticks, and I am very happy with my results so far.
I use pieces that are about 3/4" x 1", 4 or 5 inches long, toasted in oven at about 375 degrees for an hour and a half, and then charred with a torch on the 4 long sides, as per the T-Pee way.
Putting one of these sticks in a quart jar, about 3/4 full, airing and shaking once in a while, has given my whiskey great color and flavor. I have also done some where I have added a second stick to the jars, toasted, but not charred, for more of the caramel/vanilla flavors.
Even with the two sticks in a jar, I don't feel like the spirits are overdone with the oak. Thanks again to T-Pee for this post, it has really improved my whiskey!

[S-Cackalacky]

T-Pee (Generally an expert).

[SoMo]

Tpee master of woodies!!

[T-Pee]

T-Pee (Generally an expert).

Hey! I used .
Let's try .
Yeah. That's about right.

Tpee master of woodies!!

You have no idea how close you are...kinda.

tp (smart......assed)

[corene1]

I got my numbers from one of Jimbo's threads . He actually calculated the surface area of a 53 gallon barrel and did the math. If memory serves. it was somewhere near 23 sq. inches per quart. So 96 per gallon is not that far out of the standard. Particularly since you are oaking at a lower proof. The amount of end grain exposed will change flavors up a bit also. I prefer about 16 sq. inches and a 6 inch long piece of wood, 3/4 by 3/4 by 6 inches ,and toasted at 350 then oak at 60%. I always try to use once used oak and then I store it in a vessel filled with sherry. Just for the flavor. I like Irish whiskies, and some Scotches.
By the way that is a wonderful write up T Pee.

[T-Pee]

Thanks, Corene.

Can a mod please change the OP to read "For my use 22-23 square inches of oak per liter gives me the flavor I like"?
I can't edit the post and would like the correct amount given. I had the formula right, just the wrong amount of drink.

MarkM301, thanks for pointing out the error.

tp

[Bushman]

Thanks, Corene.

Can a mod please change the OP to read "For my use 22-23 square inches of oak per liter gives me the flavor I like"?
I can't edit the post and would like the correct amount given. I had the formula right, just the wrong amount of drink.

MarkM301, thanks for pointing out the error.

tp

Done!

[Jimbo]

I got my numbers from one of Jimbo's threads . He actually calculated the surface area of a 53 gallon barrel and did the math. If memory serves. it was somewhere near 23 sq. inches per quart. So 96 per gallon is not that far out of the standard. Particularly since you are oaking at a lower proof. The amount of end grain exposed will change flavors up a bit also. I prefer about 16 sq. inches and a 6 inch long piece of wood, 3/4 by 3/4 by 6 inches ,and toasted at 350 then oak at 60%. I always try to use once used oak and then I store it in a vessel filled with sherry. Just for the flavor. I like Irish whiskies, and some Scotches.
By the way that is a wonderful write up T Pee.

Corene, nice avatar. A 53 gal barrel gives 52 square inches per gallon surface area. A 5 gal barrel is about 125 sq inches per gallon or so. The 53gal numbers come from somenoe else here on HD, forgot who, sorry. The 5 gal number I calculated by measuring one of my barrels and estimating 'inside' dimensions. (outside minus 1" stave thickness bla bla). The 23 sq inches per quart number is what I use when I use sticks 5"x1x1 (22 sq in) 1 stick per quart. Cheers.

[T-Pee]

Thanks, Corene.

Can a mod please change the OP to read "For my use 22-23 square inches of oak per liter gives me the flavor I like"?
I can't edit the post and would like the correct amount given. I had the formula right, just the wrong amount of drink.

MarkM301, thanks for pointing out the error.

tp

Done!

Johnny on the spot! Thanks Bushman!

tp

[corene1]

Okie Dokie, since I am not a number cruncher I looked this up and I think it will help everyone.
It basically gives the sq. inches of different size barrels and some of the ratios between smaller barrels compared to a 53 gallon barrel.
The 53 gallon barrel has 6535 sq. inches of surface area which works out to about 120 sq inches per gallon or 30 sq inches per quart . I think this chart is something worth saving. In truth I think we all use different ratios because we like how our whiskey tastes.
http://deepsouthbarrels.com/page/barrel ... dimensions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Jimbo]

Well that sure isn't what everyone thought eh? Based on the oaking I get in 6 months at 22 in/qt im hard pressed to believe a 53 gal barrel is 30in/qt. All bourbons would be oak tea after the years they spend. Also the math I did on 5 gal doesnt jive at all with their numbers. Personally I think their numbers are jacked. Surface area of a cylinder is easy to calculate. I get 125 in/gal for 5gal barrel. Id like someone else who has a 5 gal barrel to measure, estimate inside dimension, and check my math please.

Edit: for the diameter I took inside diameter at cap and at center and split the difference. Its important to use inside diameter. Staves are 1 inch thick.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I think their numbers are jacked.

Thank you for posting that chart, Corene! At first I was pretty excited to see it, but, unfortunately, now that Jimbo has pointed it out, I agree that it looks inaccurate.

I don't have a 53 gallon whiskey barrel here, but I do have a couple 55 gallon drums. Using one of them for dimensions, and scaling down, here is what I get:

A barrel with diameter 22" and 32" high works out to about 53 gallons.
That same barrel has a surface area of 2970 sq inches. So about 56 sq in per gallon, 14 sq in per qt.

Also, just for comparison, a sphere that contains 53 gallons has a surface area of about 2550 sq in.

I would actually expect a real whiskey barrel, because of its bulging shape, to fall somewhere between my cylindrical "barrel", and the idealized sphere.

A few years ago, NcHooch worked this out and came up with 3200 sq in surface area per barrel, which worked out to about 60 sq in per gallon.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 64&t=28615
Interestingly, he noted then that when he used a smaller barrel, with about 4 times the area/gal, for 3 months of aging, it still didn't over oak the spirit.

Bottom line, I know the shape of the barrel will affect the surface area/gal ratio, but I think that chart is WAY out of whack, double what I would expect with a 53 gallon barrel.

Bottom bottom line: I like what Jimbo, T-Pee, and many others on here, are doing, about 20 - 25 sq inches per qt. When in doubt, go with HD

[HDNB]

I think their numbers are jacked.

When in doubt, go with HD

yep, a week with 3 or 4 1x1x1 cubes of ex-bourbon barrel in a quart of UJ tastes just like....bourbon. longer it sits the smoother and better it tastes.
6 if you are running low on sipping stock and gotta get the job done.

[jedneck]

This is what I love about this hobby. So many ways to achieve the same end, a product superior to most commercial swill. I use 20-25 inches to the gallon at 55-60%.

[S-Cackalacky]

I feel a little behind the dime with my aging skills. I've been using JD chips for the most part, but they have some inherent problems - mainly inconsistent size and grain direction. I started out just measuring them by volume - using about a loosely packed 1/2 cup per 4/5 quart jar. I came to realize this was maybe too much, so I'm trying to measure them by weight. This latest experiment was with three 4/5 quarts of apple brandy. I weighed out about a half ounce for each jar. This was only about half dozen, or so, chips per jar. After one cycle through the microwave, the brandy was maybe a light pee yellow. I just did the 2nd cycle earlier today, but haven't checked the color. I'll probably just follow through with 3 cycles and go with a very lightly oaked product if that's how it turns out.

I've been looking for other options. Seems that the best would be one of those whiskey barrel planters. Haven't had much luck with that. Must have been a good wine year because they didn't seem to make it to the garden centers. Maybe look for a source online. I like the idea of using recycled whiskey barrels because the wood is already seasoned, toasted and charred. If I ever get my hands on one, I'll probably cut into sticks and use them without toasting or charring - much as I do with the chips.

[bearriver]

I'd be happy to send you some sticks Cack. I can fill one of those Tyvek USPS Express Mail envelopes with several handfuls and ship it for practically nothing.

I bought a used half bourbon barrel for $30 this summer, and it is a HUGE supply of oak. For the record I oak the T-Pee way, and always cut with the grain.

[S-Cackalacky]

Thanks Bear. I'll get back to you real soon with a PM.

[Halfbaked]

I used sticks and they were between 3/4 to around an inch x 5 inches long. It usually worked out to around a 1/5 of likker and a stick to a quart jar. Mine were not out of a barrel.

[corene1]

Well darn it, I thought I found some solid numbers for comparison. When you guys do your calculations for the cylinder surface area , does that include the surface area of both end caps? I figure that to add about 314 sq inches per end using 20 inches for the diameter. I don't know the dimensions of a barrel You would think a barrel maker would have accurate information on their barrels. Guess I will stick with 16 sq.inches per quart because that makes it taste right for me.

[Bushman]

Here is a question we might ponder or investigate, and it comes from visiting Odin Yesterday. Odin uses oak staves that are approx 2" x2" by barrel thickness that he chars. This is going to add color but without oxygen it is not going to age much. I am wondering rather than using barrels to age if we could come up with a lid that would allow oxydization and work rather than replacing our barrels ever so often.
On another note when we went on the distillery tour with Odin at a distillery that specializes in Genever, she wanted it to age without adding color. Her barrels some are over 65 years old. She repairs them and uses them only to allow oxidzation to occur. So my thinking is if we are making vodka's or similar and have old barrels that are past their prime and we don't want to keep adding chips to the barrel we might consider using them this way. Just thinking outload!

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

I think it might have been corene that made up some lids for mason jars.

[goose eye]

With barrels likker is evaporating as it goes. Some turn barrels.

So I'm tole

[S-Cackalacky]

I've been using gallon pickle jars with cork stoppers for long term aging. The stoppers are 3.5" diameter by about 1.5" thick. I don't know how much breathing that allows, but it seems to be working OK. I also pop the stoppers off every couple of weeks or so for an hour or two. I got the stoppers from widgetco.com.

[Jimbo]

When you guys do your calculations for the cylinder surface area , does that include the surface area of both end caps?

Yes.

Could have been a great find Corene, too bad its horked. I havent confirmed the 53gal numbers ( 52-60 in/gal) numbers but trusted the data here on HD since those numbers been around here forever, Glad MichiganCornhusker did the math on his drum and confirmed it, thanks. And I trust my math on the 5 gal numbers (Rad knows my occupation). Its really frustrating when you follow some info on the internet, and screw something up cause of bad info. Ive been there too. Hopefully you wont see much of that on HD here. The mods should be purging shit thats misleading, I did.