Still learning CORN w/ ENZYMES

[CRACKERCREEK]

Hello all
I have run a few larger batches of corn with grain but am new at using enzyme for conversion. I am running a test batch to play around a bit but seem to be failing somewhere.

I started off with a almost spent bag of cracked corn about 3qts and 2 cups oats
6 quarts of H2O to start but brought it up to nearly 8
Ran it up to a boil stirring constantly. For an hour. Turned the heat down the temps backed off to the 175-180 range and I added my high temp alpha sebstar-htl . Let it do its thing covered overnight. I used .36ml per # of corn/ oats. Didn't seem like enough so I added another .36ml. My PH was good at 6-ish.
This AM I did an Iodine test and it was thin but very homogenized. I let this run all afternoon. Still no break and the iodine test is still showing black?

Just a thought.
Add the SEBstar HTL to the water, start the heater, start adding the grain and mixing at the same time.
Keep heating and mixing until near the upper limit of the HTL, turn off the heat and mix for a little more.
Cover and get ready for the next step.

That's what I used to do, for some reason I feel like it did I work as well. I should just stick to things for longer to ensure better results.


The car boy is glass it's a large 6 gal. It's an old Italian one. Those are stripped low wines but are high high high in alcohol. I have one more run tonight then I'll be ready to do my sprit run

[CRACKERCREEK]

https://vimeo.com/147199346

[3d0g]

Just a thought.
Add the SEBstar HTL to the water, start the heater, start adding the grain and mixing at the same time.
Keep heating and mixing until near the upper limit of the HTL, turn off the heat and mix for a little more.
Cover and get ready for the next step.

Bad idea. Plain water is going to be around 7pH, outside the range of SEBstar HTL. At least some of it will be denatured.

[der wo]

Bad idea. Plain water is going to be around 7pH, outside the range of SEBstar HTL. At least some of it will be denatured.

Are you sure? Really denatured or only slowed down for a while, until the grain lowers the ph? Next time I wanted to try exact this, add the enzyme first, so the mash never becomes really thick. Would be easier to stir.

[3d0g]

I'm positive. Done a LOT of testing with Specialty Enzymes. SEBstar HTL is great but it has a VERY narrow effective pH range - 5.6 to 6.5. Get outside of that and its efficiency drops dramatically. At a pH over 6.5, you can fully denature HTL in a few minutes at 95C.

[der wo]

Ok, I don't need the 95°C. I think, at lower temp (perhaps 80°) they will survive pH 7, but will work much slower. That would be ok for me. But I thought, perhaps you have the info, that they don't survive pH 7 at any temperature.

[3d0g]

It's a combination of pH AND temp. At 73C and 6.9 pH, I had a dramatic drop in mash efficiency, upwards of 10%. This is biology so there's many factors besides pH. Ca++ ions can increase SEBstar HTL stability, for example.

I'm simply stating from my experience, dropping SEBstar HTL into plain water is a bad idea. Drop your corn into the strike water, start mixing, and as it starts to thicken, add the HTL. The stuff literally works in seconds. If you're adamant about pre-treating the water with HTL, at least use lactic or phosphoric to bring the pH down to 6.5 first.

[woodshed]

I'm with 3dog on this. You can always use backset to drop PH as well.
As stated numerous times here PH is critical with enzymes. Parameters are defined by the ingredients for maximum efficiency.
The shortcuts would be well travelled if they offered a better route to the goal.

[HDNB]

moved by 3dog, second by woodshed....all in favour?

motion carried.

temps AND Ph, and you are golden. this stuff is FM (flippin' magic)

[der wo]

Yes I know that. I have worked with the enzymes a few mashes and it was very very easy. The pH was always in the right range, if I didn't use backset. And I know, the SebamylGl is very tolerant about low pH, it would even stand 100% backset. But as you know, the SebstarHT is not as tolerant.
The reason for my question was: I want to use more backset for taste reasons. But because of the pH-range of the HT-amylase I have to start almost without backset. So one of my plans to achieve this is to mash very thick at the beginning, for a SG over 1.100, and after conversion dilute it with backset to a normal SG. I would like to try all in all 50% backset and 50% water.

Method 1: Heat up water and give in corn as much I can stir. Then add Amylase and wait until I can give in more corn.

Method 2: Heat up water and give in Amylase. Then add corn and perhaps wait a while, if the mash becomes too thick for stirring.

So my question is: Will the SebStarHT at pH 7 (hard water, perhaps added calcium carbonate, 80°C) die or only pause the work?

Both methods I thought will end with the same result, but method 2 perhaps is a little less work. That's all, I know, there are bigger problems in world...

[HDNB]

So one of my plans to achieve this is to mash very thick at the beginning, for a SG over 1.100, and after conversion dilute it with backset to a normal SG.
Method 1: Heat up water and give in corn as much I can stir. Then add Amylase and wait until I can give in more corn.


So my question is: Will the SebStarHT at pH 7 (hard water, perhaps added calcium carbonate, 80°C) die or only pause the work?

method 1 is what i do and have excellent success. there is a point, around 3 lbs/gallon that the enzymes seem to have a problem moving through thick mash, so stir! i have had to add water if too thick.

my well water is slightly alkaline. when the corn is added it drops Ph to low 6's as the temperature gets to about 80*C, i add HTL. i increase temp to 95*C, then begin to cool. stir occasionally. add the other 1/2 dose (actually slightly over recommended 1/2 dose for the weight) when the mash has cooled to 88*-85*C hold for 2 hours (90 minutes seems to be optimum time/liquifaction but more time does do a bit more work)
hit it with cold backset to drop the mash to 148* F (i'm Canadian, we are allowed to use two different temp scales in the same paragraph)
Add GL dose, stir then leave it for an overnight rest. i usually put a folded up towel on the lid of the pot to help hold heat.

in the morning, it is done, done, done.

using slightly more enzyme than required may be somewhat wasteful using this method, but i have not been able to argue with the results.

3dog says if you add HTL to 7Ph water you will denature to some extent, i would believe him. i have not tried HTL out of the optimum range yet, but i did try GL without lowering PH enough and there was a very noticable difference in efficiency.

[shadylane]

Just a thought.
Add the SEBstar HTL to the water, start the heater, start adding the grain and mixing at the same time.
Keep heating and mixing until near the upper limit of the HTL, turn off the heat and mix for a little more.
Cover and get ready for the next step.

Bad idea. Plain water is going to be around 7pH, outside the range of SEBstar HTL. At least some of it will be denatured.

I don't think the enzymes would be denatured at pH 7 and low temps. The logic for adding the HTL to the water first is to get a uniform mixture.
If you wait until the grain has begun to gelatinize before adding the enzymes, it's more difficult to get everything mixed uniformly.
https://enzymash.biz/download/sebstarhtl.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://enzymash.biz/download/sebamylgl.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[3d0g]

Have you actually used Specialty Enzymes shadylane?

There is no issue of "uniform mixing". SEBstar HTL literally reacts in seconds. I've personally seen 250 gallons of cornmeal sludge go to full liquid in under 30 seconds, just with a squirt of 180ml of HTL into the cooker.

I've already stated that a high pH will reduce efficiency dramatically. Pushing the optimal boundaries is an unnecessary waste of expensive enzymes IMO.

[der wo]

I've already stated that a high pH will reduce efficiency dramatically.

But will the efficiency go up again, when the pH gets in the right range by adding the corn?
It's all fine, if you don't have the answer for that. But please say it, that we can close it. You don't have to say again and again, that the efficiency is low out of the pH-range, that's not the question.

[drmiller100]

I've already stated that a high pH will reduce efficiency dramatically.

But will the efficiency go up again, when the pH gets in the right range by adding the corn?
It's all fine, if you don't have the answer for that. But please say it, that we can close it. You don't have to say again and again, that the efficiency is low out of the pH-range, that's not the question.

so you want to add enzyme to water, heat the water up to cook the corn and release the starch, and you are worried about PH????

The temperatures it takes to liquify the starch is well beyond the temp to kill the enzyme. Once the enzyme is dead, it is dead.

IF you want to do your backset thing, then heat the water/backset to almost boiling, remove heat, toss in your corn, and hold it all at as high a temperature as you can (hour or two).
Then add something very short term to get teh PH right. Pitch hte first enzyme at it's optimal temp. mix a bit. let it sit. then check temp, and pitch the next enzyme. let it sit.

[3d0g]

I've already stated that a high pH will reduce efficiency dramatically.

But will the efficiency go up again, when the pH gets in the right range by adding the corn?
It's all fine, if you don't have the answer for that. But please say it, that we can close it. You don't have to say again and again, that the efficiency is low out of the pH-range, that's not the question.

But I *have* already answered, repeatedly. Denatured enzymes don't "heal". Efficiency doesn't magically re-appear. Why don't you do a few tests and measure for yourself? Wouldn't take but 30 min and a couple pounds of cornmeal to test your hypothesis...

I've spent the last 2 years running all kinds of mashes, collecting data in preparation of my distillery opening. All I can offer is the data I've found. I do concede that perhaps a 10% mash efficiency loss isn't as critical to a home distiller.

[shadylane]

Have you actually used Specialty Enzymes shadylane?

There is no issue of "uniform mixing". SEBstar HTL literally reacts in seconds. I've personally seen 250 gallons of cornmeal sludge go to full liquid in under 30 seconds, just with a squirt of 180ml of HTL into the cooker.

I've already stated that a high pH will reduce efficiency dramatically. Pushing the optimal boundaries is an unnecessary waste of expensive enzymes IMO.

Yes, I've used specialty enzymes and you have more experience using it commercially.
As a hobbiest, I prefer to avoid making cornmeal sludge.
From my perspective, using a couple extra drops of enzymes is worth it, for a mash that's never thickens and is easy to work with.
Adding the enzymes to cold water isn't going to denature it. And the pH of the mash will drop when the crushed grain is added to the water.
Posting with 3dog

[MichiganCornhusker]

Seems like a terminology problem here.
Can't use "inefficient" "inactivated" "denatured" "deactivated" all interchangeably.
Cold water might make enzymes less effective, but I don't thing that denatured them.
I can say that operating outside of pH range will at least make them less effective, but not sure when they actually become denatured.

I've read the crap about "one enzyme could convert the world given enough time" but I don't believe that.
Obviously it's not practical, but I would bet that little guy would become denatured somewhere along the way just in the normal course of his days, even at optimal conditions.
We talk about "x" DP per "y" pounds of grain, but shouldn't that be for a specific set of conditions and times?
How about 1/2"x" for twice as long? 1/10"x" for 10 times as long, given optimal conditions to prevent denaturing?

[der wo]

Denatured enzymes don't "heal".

But do you know, they are denatured? You only said, they denature at 95°C pH7 in a few minutes and this I already read in the pdf of the enzyme. Are you shure they denature or did you only recognice, they work slower?

so you want to add enzyme to water, heat the water up to cook the corn and release the starch, and you are worried about PH???? The temperatures it takes to liquify the starch is well beyond the temp to kill the enzyme. Once the enzyme is dead, it is dead.

Man, of course I know, boiling kills the enzymes. I would add at the beginning a half and after the boiling the other half of it. I didn't write it, but it's not important for my question.

Ok, of course nobody needs to write me, but I repeat, what 3d0g wrote and what I wanted to know at the beginning of this episode:

Bad idea. Plain water is going to be around 7pH, outside the range of SEBstar HTL. At least some of it will be denatured.

Are you sure? Really denatured or only slowed down for a while, until the grain lowers the ph? Next time I wanted to try exact this, add the enzyme first, so the mash never becomes really thick. Would be easier to stir.

Thank you shadylane. You are the only one, who understood my question.

[MichiganCornhusker]

For example, from the pdf for Sebstar HTL:

"When used to liquefy cereal grain starch, the optimum pH is 5.6 - 6.5.
SEBstar HTL has a temperature range of 50C - 90C."

Ok, that's great, but what if you drift out of that environment?

"Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95C and pH 6.5.
...completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95C"

This is confusing to me because I don't know if "inactivation" means "slows down" or actually denatures.
And it says "begins to...", so how much time do I have if I'm at pH 6.5?
I guess if my pH drops to 4.0, not much time at all!
Says nothing about effect of pH above 6.5 on the enzymes.

I in no way doubt 3d0g's experiments, and I'm grateful for the info.
It can just get a little frustrating, sometimes, that when you try to get a little more indepth info on the 'net you often just run into "well, alpha and beta both work well between 148F - 156F"

[Kegg_jam]

Dang. It looks like I need to get my ph meter working again (calibrated). I think just winging it has been less than optimal.

[drmiller100]

For example, from the pdf for Sebstar HTL:

""

that is AMAZING that particular enzyme works at that high of a temperature. 90c. And more amazing it does not die until 95c.

some specific info from some suppliers.

http://www.brewhausforum.com/yaf_postst ... #post25169" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[shadylane]

In my opinion, the great thing about Sebstar HTL is it works at temps high enough to cook starch and the pH of starch mixed with water is in the ball park.
Put starch, 1/2 the total water needed and HTL in a pot then heat and stir it until 180f or just a little more. A pinch of calcium wouldn't hurt.
Then wait.

[HDNB]

if the manufacturer say it becomes ineffective, i'd believe him too. does it really hurt that bad to RTFI and actually follow them?

i went outside of PH on Gl and paid for it, i'd guess 20% or better. but if you want to try it yourself...

at 3 lbs/ gallon my paint mixer on a 1/2" drill stirs just as well as at 1 lb/gallon...but i have noticed there is a point where the sludge stays sludge and the htl enzymes seem to need some water to move in.

to do your backset thing, then heat the water/backset to almost boiling, remove heat, toss in your corn, and hold it all at as high a temperature as you can (hour or two).
Then add something very short term to get teh PH right. Pitch hte first enzyme at it's optimal temp. mix a bit. let it sit. then check temp, and pitch the next enzyme. let it sit.

this makes no sense to me. the backset lowers the Ph out of HTL range, so you would have to buffer it up for HTL. then after HTL does it's thing, you have to lower the Ph to get the GL to do it's thing.

i've owned a hot tub long enough to know that Ph "sits in a basket" of alkalinity and they (alkalinity and Ph) do not react instantly. this is a balance, and if your Ph is going up and down like a whore's drawers, the results are going to suffer.

just because your Ph is on in a hot tub....does not mean your skin is going to enjoy the basidity/acidity/alkalinity...i'm sure the enzymes feel the same way, in a much more delicate "skin"

i've hit over 10% potential pushing these little buggers on the protocol ^^^ (as a test not as a rule) the results are there for me anyway.

like most things, YMMV

[drmiller100]

In my opinion, the great thing about Sebstar HTL is it works at temps high enough to cook starch and the pH of starch mixed with water is in the ball park.
Put starch, 1/2 the total water needed and HTL in a pot then heat and stir it until 180f or just a little more. A pinch of calcium wouldn't hurt.
Then wait.

yeah. I had no idea enzymes were available which worked at that high of temperature.

when i do corn next I'm going to try that way. seems like a no brainer, and also seems like a good reason to get a temperature controlled heater to hold it there.

How long do you hold it at 180 to get complete conversion?

[shadylane]

does it really hurt that bad to RTFI and actually follow them?

Here's the instructions for a 5 gallon mash using 10 pounds of grain.

Mashing Procedure

1. Fill the pot with half the liquid needed. From the example 2.5 gallons.

2. Add the SEBstar HTL to the water. From the example 3.9 ml.

3. Start agitator.

4. Add all the corn to cold water.

5. Heat to 190° F.

6. Turn off heat and allow to set for 90 minutes. Temperature may drop is is fine.

7. Add remaining water to bring volume to final volume. Helps to cool mash.

8. Cool to 150° F. Best done using an immersion wort chiller.

9. Add SEBamyl GL. From the example 3.9 ml.

10. Let set for 75 minutes.

11. Cool to 85°. Best done using an immersion wort chiller.

12. Transfer to fermenter using easiest method available

[shadylane]

I add a 1/2 gallon of frozen backset at step #7

[DAD300]

I don't use whole grains any more.

I never work to hold a temperature using the SEB enzymes...turning the heat off and drifting down means you never scorch the grain!

1. I boil the water (rid of chlorine and sterilize),
2. Turn the power/heat off, start stir, turn the power/heat off and add grain,...
3. Let it drift down to first temp 190F and add first enzyme SEBstar HTL and stir til obviously thinned
4. Cover and let drift down to next temp, stirring every ten minutes or so for a short time to hasten cooling.
5. When reaching next temp 150F...add next enzyme SEBamyl GL, stir and cover, stir every ten minutes until I get a good starch test. Cover for the night.

I haven't used the SEBflo TL as everything works fine without it. I imagine if the batches were bigger it would be a significant help.

If I had a no hands mixer, I would stir more to hasten cooling.

This stuff/method is rock simple! I get perfect conversions and never scorch a batch.

[HDNB]

try this:

does it really hurt that bad to RTFI and actually follow them?

Here's the instructions for a 5 gallon mash using 10 pounds of grain.

Mashing Procedure

1. Fill the pot with half the liquid needed. From the example 2.5 gallons.
cover the grain with half the water needed, but boiling hot
2. Add the SEBstar HTL to the water. From the example 3.9 ml.
then...yup
3. Start agitator.
fer sure
4. Add all the corn to cold water.
already done
5. Heat to 190° F.
yup,add a bit more seb
6. Turn off heat and allow to set for 90 minutes. Temperature may drop is is fine.
uh-huh
7. Add remaining water to bring volume to final volume. Helps to cool mash.
after 90 mins or more, cool with backset and water
8. Cool to 150° F. Best done using an immersion wort chiller.
go to 148* jimbo sez less unfermentable dextrins. i believe him. (no proof)
9. Add SEBamyl GL. From the example 3.9 ml.
yep, but you gotta lower the Ph, thats why the backset^^
10. Let set for 75 minutes.
i leave it overnight cause i'm tired by now.
11. Cool to 85°. Best done using an immersion wort chiller.
overnight does it
12. Transfer to fermenter using easiest method available
corntrifuge all the way baby! i like a clean ferment!

posting with dad. concur wholeheartedly! there is small differences, but they are big differences... Ph lowering for GL is huge in my experience.

[MichiganCornhusker]

How long do you hold it at 180 to get complete conversion?

The high temp enzyme is for starch liquification during gelatinization. Total no brainier, makes the corn nice and juicy in seconds.
You still need to do a mash at 148F to convert starches to sugars.

I usually add my corn to boiling hot water, mix with drill until smooth and thickening.
Temp is then down below 190F, so I add the SEBStar and reheat to 190f. Seal it up and let it sit overnight.
Temp down to 140ish next day, add backset for pH, add SEBAmyl GL, and heat up to 148, let sit for a few hours, chill, pitch.

Woodshed has a different brand of similar enzymes.

The high temp stuff for corn or oats is a godsend.