Jaggery

[raketemensch]

You two seem to be arguing about cooked vs uncooked sugar, and I wish you wouldn't because you'll get a lot more accomplished with less agita.

[Bagasso]

I suspect any misunderstanding stems from the use of the ward 'raw'. I've never heard the word raw used in conjunction with jaggery types. Maybe it is. Maybe a better word would be 'whole' when describing jaggery types. You couldn't call the products from an industrial sugar mill or processor whole, so then might be less confusion.

You could if they did it that way. Just because you have seen some place do it one way doesn't mean that it can't be done another.

In the end, they are all sugars so, if you want to make a sugar cane based drink, using brown sugar is in that class.

Caramelization would be very minimal, if not impossible, in a sugar mill because the juice is evaporated under a vacuum and temperatures wouldn't be high enough. It is much more able to occur on the final hot slab in jaggery production.

But it would still be whole.

I've worked in a sugar mill on the crystallizing floor, so I don't need an artisan to explain that process to me.

But did you work with cane juice?

You have already given the answer a couple of times. Evaporation under a vacuum gives a lighter product but it is still whole. That's all I'm saying. Buy a pound of that heat it up until it hits the color you want and you have jaggery.

It can be light or dark. They would both be jaggery and they would be different which, makes your whole point pretty moot.

[Bagasso]

You two seem to be arguing about cooked vs uncooked sugar, and I wish you wouldn't because you'll get a lot more accomplished with less agita.

I don't even know why it has gone on this long.

I'm saying sugar products from sugar cane will give you sugar cane based likker. We all know that the products are different.

Use, mix and match what you can get, based on availability and/or wallet.

Personal preferences are just that, personal.

[Jimbo]

I'm saying sugar products from sugar cane will give you sugar cane based likker.

I been watching this squabble from a distance, but gonna chime in now on this comment. Panela is boiled down sugar cane juice, often in a hut in the woods. Unlike white or brown sugar there is nothing refined about it. Its caramelized from the boiling, all natural and full of solids and all manner of other natural stuff not found in refined brown sugar (refined sucrose + refined molasses). Its also broken down to glucose and fructose by virtue of having been boiled forever.

Long story short, its for these reasons that it ferments happily on its own without need for yeast nutrients like refined sugar (white or brown), and it (the Rum/Cachaca I make with it) has no sugar bite or sugar zing like all the sugarheads I've ever made.

Thats my nickle worth on this topic. Ill fuck off now.

[Bagasso]

Long story short, its for these reasons that it ferments happily on its own without need for yeast nutrients like refined sugar

Nobody is saying otherwise.

[aircarbonarc]

I did learn some things about Jaggery I did not know. In my opinion I think it's a great inexpensive product to make a great light rum or base liquor for liqueurs and flavoring.

[NZChris]

You have already given the answer a couple of times. Evaporation under a vacuum gives a lighter product but it is still whole. That's all I'm saying. Buy a pound of that heat it up until it hits the color you want and you have jaggery.

This where you completely miss the point. It is only 'whole' up until the evaporation is finished and the crystals have been grown to a suitable size to be separated from the molasses in centrifuges. The molasses then goes into tanks and the 'raw sugar' goes through driers and into hoppers. From that point on, neither the molasses, nor the crystals, or any product produced from them could be considered whole. Caramelising that sugar cannot simulate jaggery as it is now missing a major component.

Have I worked with cane juice? Of course I have. That is what sugar mills do. What I haven't operated, I've done maintenance on.

[Bagasso]

This where you completely miss the point.

I get your point but, since sugar products are different anyway, it is moot to say, this is not the same as that.

It is only 'whole' up until the evaporation is finished and the crystals have been grown to a suitable size to be separated from the molasses in centrifuges. The molasses then goes into tanks and the 'raw sugar' goes through driers and into hoppers.

And if you mix those two parts what do you have?

From that point on, neither the molasses, nor the crystals, or any product produced from them could be considered whole. Caramelising that sugar cannot simulate jaggery as it is now missing a major component.

Never said it did. I'm talking about a process other than what you are describing. I honestly don't care what Chelsea does because I'm not a client.

I don't even know what you are going on about. If someone decided to use their golden syrup and liked it, what difference does that make to you?

[NZChris]

Never said it did. I'm talking about a process other than what you are describing

Now that is interesting. I've never come across such a product in NZ. Who makes it? Where would you buy it?

I honestly don't care what Chelsea does because I'm not a client.

Same here except I use their white sugar.

I don't even know what you are going on about. If I did decide to use their golden syrup and like it, what difference does that make to you?

None at all. I never said it did. I just wouldn't use it myself.
Going by the description of how it is made by Tate & Lyle, if I did want to use golden syrup, it would be much cheaper for me to make my own.

[Bagasso]

Now that is interesting. I've never come across such a product in NZ. Who makes it? Where would you buy it?

I don't know. See what I mean about availability?

None at all. I never said it did. I just wouldn't use it myself.
Going by the description of how it is made by Tate & Lyle, if I did want to use golden syrup, it would be much cheaper for me to make my own.

So, we come full circle.

If something like jaggery is not available to you, you can use what is available to make a sugar cane based likker. That is what I said in my second post, after making clear that I did not mean blackstrap molasses when I said molasses in my original post.

[NZChris]

But you said "Buy a pound of that ...".

I really would like to use it and if I knew what I know now when I was working at the mill, I would have poured myself a bucketful on night shifts.

Does it exist in the retail, or wholesale markets? What is it called?

[Bagasso]

But you said "Buy a pound of that ...".

That would be dependant on it existing in your market.

Does it exist in the retail, or wholesale markets? What is it called?

Light versions of jaggery, panela, piloncillo, etc. depending on the country of origin.

If you can't get that, I have it on good word from this guy that worked at a sugar mill, that sugar and molasses are split and sold seperatly. If you blend the two in the right proportions, you will get something close to those products.

Did I mention the full circle?

[NZChris]

Are you saying that "Light versions of jaggery, panela, piloncillo, etc. depending on the country of origin." are evaporated under vacuum?

[Bagasso]

Are you saying that "Light versions of jaggery, panela, piloncillo, etc. depending on the country of origin." are evaporated under vacuum?

Nope, just that they are light and you can darken to your liking.

ETA: We have come full circle. Why drag it out even more?

[raketemensch]

I hate it when Mom and Dad fight.

[NZChris]

Simple. I just learned something. That is what forums are for. Now I know vacuum evaporated jaggery is manufactured and is on the market.

Here is a link to a multi effect vacuum jaggery producer.

http://www.dbagroindustries.com/

[Bagasso]

Here is a link to a multi effect vacuum jaggery producer.

Actually looks darker than the stuff made in this "automatic plant".

[NZChris]

The "automatic plant" seems very gentle. Theirs is a lighter color than what I can get here.

[Bagasso]

The "automatic plant" seems very gentle. Theirs is a lighter color than what I can get here.

Well, products like that are what made me say that they are missing, what most people would consider, molasses.

It's whole but it isn't going to taste like jaggery made at high temps. If you dissolve and pitch yeast on that kind of wash I think that it would be very light.

I have eaten panela that light and it has good flavor but, it isn't "molasses" flavor.

[aircarbonarc]

I prefer the burnt sandy cheap stuff made by villagers

[Bagasso]

I prefer the burnt sandy cheap stuff made by villagers

Have you distilled lighter stuff?

I have only tried them in cooking.

[aircarbonarc]

Have you distilled lighter stuff?

I have only tried them in cooking.[/quote]

I have only bought the lighter stuff in a small amount once which seems to lack the flavor and is alot more expensive than the Burlap wrapped crudely made big blocks. Id say go cheap for flavor, damn blocks when i split them with an axe they have a different colour and consistency inside . Also about industrial sugar production, in the city i live in we have a large sugar refinery ran by a major sugar company. I have heard the "raw" sugar arrives in ships which is an almost wet non crystallized dirty matter. I have worked there doing emergency boiler maintenance. One of the employee perks is all the free molasses you can carry out in pails. We do however have a sugar beet refinery in Alberta Canada which looks like a pretty modern industrial plant, so cane sugar for me

[aircarbonarc]

the local refinery does use the centrifuge to separate the molasses from the crystals. I did hear them refer to the vacuum evaps as pots. Also the recycle the water which makes the boiler tubes corrode from the inside, damn steam drum was a mess of carbonized sugar waste. Tig welding over burnt sugar sludge impregnated metal isn't always fun.

[LWTCS]

On the older, more traditional processing lines, depending on the man running the kettle, color can also vary from batch to batch.

I have also read that unscrupulous producers do extract some sucrose from panela, jaggery (or the like). I assume this practice can change the naturally occurring color of the finish product?

I also have info from the horses mouth that some modern facilities do add color to create a more uniform product.

I personally kinda prefer to find the bee wings and so forth. Generally means it came from a real farmer that used a local processor. And those poor folks could use the work.

[LWTCS]

the local refinery does use the centrifuge to separate the molasses from the crystals. I did hear them refer to the vacuum evaps as pots. Also the recycle the water which makes the boiler tubes corrode from the inside, damn steam drum was a mess of carbonized sugar waste. Tig welding over burnt sugar sludge impregnated metal isn't always fun.

The fix would be to charge the system with water and pitch a starter. Yeast would pick the inards clean. Big problem to dispose of the resulting "beer" I suppose?

[S-Cackalacky]

How would turbinado sugar with some molasses added back in compare to something like jaggery, panella, etc.? Costco has a 6 lb bag for something like $7. This would seem to be an inexpensive way to get something close to unrefined sugar for a rum ferment. It might even give some control over flavor - depending on the amount of molasses added back in.

[Bagasso]

I have only bought the lighter stuff in a small amount once which seems to lack the flavor and is alot more expensive than the Burlap wrapped crudely made big blocks.

That is what I noticed as well.

Id say go cheap for flavor, damn blocks when i split them with an axe they have a different colour and consistency inside.

Right, there is no real quality control.

I understand, from a QC point of view, why companies who want to sell a consistant product strip things down and add back to the level they need.

[Bagasso]

How would turbinado sugar with some molasses added back in compare to something like jaggery, panella, etc.?

I think it would be a good starting point. Especially if getting some of the other types of sugars is difficult/costly.

I'd say it's a lot like coffee. You can buy a bag of commercial ground coffee or you can buy specialty grains green, roast them to their perfect point, grind them to the perfect mesh seconds before preparing with bottled water, heated and checked with your digital therm with a 0.1 degree resolution.

The former might not have notes and hints of this or that but they are still both coffee.

Might turn out that you prefer tea.

[NZChris]

How would turbinado sugar with some molasses added back in compare to something like jaggery, panella, etc.? Costco has a 6 lb bag for something like $7. This would seem to be an inexpensive way to get something close to unrefined sugar for a rum ferment. It might even give some control over flavor - depending on the amount of molasses added back in.

If the price is right, go for it. The Jamaican sugar industry averages about 2.1kg of raw sugar to 1kg of molasses. The color of turbinado is very close to industrial raw sugar, so the % of molasses coating it is close too. Mix them at the same ratio and you're close enough to jaggery. The higher price of turbinado and raw sugar in NZ makes it cheaper for me to use white sugar and bit extra molasses to get a similar ratio.

[Bagasso]

The higher price of turbinado and raw sugar in NZ makes it cheaper for me to use white sugar and bit extra molasses to get a similar ratio.

Local markets do vary a lot. I can get a kilo of turbinado for US$0.86 but for some odd reason blackstrap molasses costs US$4.00/kg. I can get panela for US$1.50/kg.

Not that it would do me any good but, what do you think would be a good ratio of white sugar to molasses to approximate jaggery? Others with a cheaper source of molasses might be better off going that route.