Make lethal methanol concentration

[engunear]

Hi shadylane, can you post a pointer to methanol smearing at least? It has a boiling point 14 degrees or so from ethanol, it does not azeotrope with anything. I vaguely remember seeing something about partial pressure, but if we can remove acetate stink from grappa & whiskey, why not methanol? Thx.

[Kareltje]

Maybe this:

file:///C:/Users/GEBRUI~1/AppData/Local/Temp/CGNA16864ENC_001.pdf

There are several studies about congeners in which methanol is shown too.

[der wo]

This is a thread about...
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 33&t=40606
...why methanol is not really removable by distillation despite of the lower boiling point.

[engunear]

Interesting Coroner's report from the death of three people in Australia partly from methanol poisoning (attached).

A few snippets:

The methanol concentration in their product was around 10% of the ethanol. "The levels of alcohol ranged from 4.2g/100ml to
22g/100ml. The methanol levels ranged from 0.7g/100ml to 2.3g/100ml." That seems to be a high but not implausible concentration from fermentation alone.

The liquor "smelled of methylated spirits". Methylated spirits in Australia does not contain methanol, so is this just ethyl acetate from an oxygen-exposed ferment?

I could not determine from the report whether the methanol was a fermentation byproduct or they had added something with methanol to their still.

The deceased had damaged livers to start with and the methanol finished the job. They were on a bit of a bender (alcohol excess in remote Australian aboriginal communities is problematic, and a town on a bender is a pretty shocking sight.)

From a distiller's standpoint, this hints that methanol in dangerous quantities can be made by fermentation alone, but is not conclusive.

[der wo]

Probably the sentence for distilling bad and illegal is milder than for poisoning people on purpose, so they lied.

[Kareltje]

Very interesting report! It also explains a lot about methanol and its effects. Strange effects too: one of the victims consumed less alcohol and was so enhancing the bad effects of the methanol that was earlier ingested!

But some strange things too: people must be very desperate to by and drink such bad tasting products, although the price seems moderate.

Another thing, that is already cited:

The contents of those bottles were analysed by the Forensic Science Services Toxicology Unit. A mixture of alcohol and methanol were detected in some of the samples submitted for analysis. The levels of alcohol ranged from 4.2g/100ml to 22g/100ml. The methanol levels ranged from 0.7g/100ml to 2.3g/100ml.

Supposing that by alcohol is meant ethanol, the %ABV is surprisingly low: 5.25 to 27,5 %ABV! But the methanol content is surprisingly high.

I wonder how they made this bad shine.

[shadylane]

"""" He further stated that chronic daily ingestion of liquor containing both alcohol and methanol can lead to an accumulation of methanol that will remain largely un-metabolised until such time as the alcohol is excreted from the body such as during periods of abstinence. """"

Sounds like they might be still alive if they had stopped drinking the poisoned "shine" but kept on drinking ethanol.

[shadylane]

......Supposing that by alcohol is meant ethanol, the %ABV is surprisingly low: 5.25 to 27,5 %ABV! But the methanol content is surprisingly high.
I wonder how they made this bad shine.

The only way is to add methanol to the "shine"
From the report, I got the impression the "shine" was wine?
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[Kareltje]

"""" He further stated that chronic daily ingestion of liquor containing both alcohol and methanol can lead to an accumulation of methanol that will remain largely un-metabolised until such time as the alcohol is excreted from the body such as during periods of abstinence. """"

Sounds like they might be still alive if they had stopped drinking the poisoned "shine" but kept on drinking ethanol.

Indeed, that is suggested. It also suggests that the methanol is kept somewhere in the body and waits until the level of ethanol is low enough to be metabolized. But that is a part I doubt.

About the wine in stead of shine: I thought something like that, but 27,5 %ABV is not wine. That has to have at least a part of distillate in it.
But I agree with you: I think they have added methanol to the drink. But from where? And why?

[shadylane]

But I agree with you: I think they have added methanol to the drink. But from where? And why?

Where to get methanol is easy
I don't know the why, but that leads me to wonder was the methanol added accidently or on purpose.
If on purpose, who would benefit from the deaths and why

[shadylane]

Indeed, that is suggested. It also suggests that the methanol is kept somewhere in the body and waits until the level of ethanol is low enough to be metabolized. But that is a part I doubt.

The way I read it. Ethanol is the antidote to methanol poisoning.
The body metabolizes methanol into formaldehyde
Formaldehyde turns into formic acid
And the formic acid does the damage.
This takes time, long enough for the "antidote" ethanol to clear the body.
That leaves the metabolites of methanol

[Kareltje]

Yes, you have a point. But:

Methanol itself has a relatively low toxicity. It is the body’s metabolism of methanol that is responsible for its transformation to toxic compounds. Methanol is metabolised principally in the liver. The main enzyme responsible for metabolising drinking alcohol (ethanol), is also the primary enzyme involved in the oxidation of methanol to its first metabolite, formaldehyde. Formaldehyde converts to formic acid. It is the formic acid which causes the damage and leads to toxicity. Methanol disappears quickly from the body but formic acid lasts a lot longer in the body.

So while the liver is metabolizing ethanol to acetaldehyde it postpones the metabolizing of methanol to formaldehyde.
And that process gives the not metabolized methanol time to disappear from the body.

[The Baker]

A 'traditional' drink is "White Lady" ; Methylated spirits and powdered milk.
Geoff

[thecroweater]

A 'traditional' drink is "White Lady" ; Methylated spirits and powdered milk.
Geoff

Yep a term from those previously disallowed from purchasing alcohol. Another term is muthern metho with a mixer, wine or for some reason boot polish

[engunear]

The Australians don't add methanol to methylated spirits any more, and not for quite a while, because of the problems of methanol poisoning. They do add an emetic and something to make it taste like shit. I'm not sure that methyl alcohol is easy to get an Aus, having gone through the solvents section of a hardware store looking for something with methyl alcohol listed on the label.

A thing that is hinted at here is the nature of a remote community bender. I have seen one in Oodnadatta on the night the social serviced checks came out and it was shocking. Many many people totally shitfaced, asleep wherever they fell, walking around dead drunk. I spent most of the evening close to the bar in the pub where it was safe (the people there were sober) and turned in 11pm or so. Met the cops at breakfast who told us there had been several knifings, and later met the community nurse who had a busy night as well. This report talks about the village talking about this shine, and obtaining it by the crate. So this is in the context of a lot of people, some with liver disease and very drunk for days.

But the puzzle remains - how did they get this methyl alc concentration?

[engunear]

Another dig around the net found a possible answer:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/M ... bb58b691ab

Bacterial contamination. They point out that there have been examples of mass methanol poisoning even when the price of methanol is higher than that of ethanol, meaning there is no financial incentive to add the two. Some cultures ferment with naturally occurring yeasts and can get a wide range of bacteria as well.

[The Baker]

You can get methanol in Australia.
My son used to get 44 Imperial Gallon drums (well, one, from time to time) (205 litres I think, 55 gallons American) to make his biodiesel.
Doesn't do it any more, the modern cars are a lot fussier about purity...
But he saved a heap of money in the few years he did it. Used free used cooking oil...
Geoff

[engunear]

Yeah, thats right. I probably did not look hard enough. I used to run model planes on it, so its probably still available in those circles, but not Bunnings. Thx for post.

[kiwi Bruce]

Doesn't do it any more, the modern cars are a lot fussier about purity...Geoff

The AOA (Auto Oil Alliance) made damn sure any of the virgining research was laid to rest ten years ago...I was experimenting with H-H-O (also called Brown's Gas) around that time.The pomme bastards had legislation passed that made altering the O2 sensors on a car a federal offense. The introduction of all the auto-computer bullshit sealed the deal. We were at the point of being 95 % petroleum free. I only needed gas in the winter to start the car, so I only had a 5 gallon gas tank, I ran two full years on just water. We would be globally gasoline free by now if these F--er's hadn't F--ed with us. We were cutting edge and sadly believed we were doing the whole world a favor. We never realized how determined and powerful the AOA was, and still is.
There! That's my rant for the week! I'll have a drink now and stop my blood boiling!

[Fiddleford]

Doesn't do it any more, the modern cars are a lot fussier about purity...Geoff

The AOA (Auto Oil Alliance) made damn sure any of the virgining research was laid to rest ten years ago...I was experimenting with H-H-O (also called Brown's Gas) around that time.The pomme bastards had legislation passed that made altering the O2 sensors on a car a federal offense. The introduction of all the auto-computer bullshit sealed the deal. We were at the point of being 95 % petroleum free. I only needed gas in the winter to start the car, so I only had a 5 gallon gas tank, I ran two full years on just water. We would be globally gasoline free by now if these F--er's hadn't F--ed with us. We were cutting edge and sadly believed we were doing the whole world a favor. We never realized how determined and powerful the AOA was, and still is.
There! That's my rant for the week! I'll have a drink now and stop my blood boiling!

Uncle's doing that, he's trying to get resonance based frequency going with the water so he won't need to use a catalyst.
He's been at it a year and he's got a torch you can solder with and almost braze with, that's just with traditional electrolysis we figger once we get the resonator set up production should be increased by a metric shit tonne. damn I'm sorry that's way off topic but just had to say that eh

[Kareltje]

Another dig around the net found a possible answer:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/M ... bb58b691ab

Bacterial contamination. They point out that there have been examples of mass methanol poisoning even when the price of methanol is higher than that of ethanol, meaning there is no financial incentive to add the two. Some cultures ferment with naturally occurring yeasts and can get a wide range of bacteria as well.

Yes, I read it too. But he does not give any convincing examples.
The maximum percentage of methanol in drinks for humans is allowed by the EU: 1.5 % in distillate of marc.

[engunear]

But he does not give any convincing examples.

Yeah, I know. There is a 3 year gap in the posts as I earned nothing in that time, though the curiosity remains. I've beaten my head against this before. It is hard to get coherent information from people who have lost family members after a bender gone wrong and when they were doing something illegal. I have Googled methods of fermenting methanol, but industrially its not made that way. Even these guys who wrote a whole paper on deaths, and who presumably read some microbiology, did not find an answer.

[kiwi Bruce]

I looked into this, even if the feed stock was 80 to 100% cellulose, the aerobic bacterial fermentation needed, would not produce the amount of methanol W.H.O. claims was produced in Nigeria in 2015. The local Nigerian's were making wine from fermented dates, with a yeast fermentation that was then crudely distilled in a single run pot still into a traditional form of gin, local custom and LEGAL. But this local gin was supposed to contain 16.3% methanol and killed 89 people. Can you say "Wag the F--ing Dog" The Nigerian Government promptly make all locally made gin illegal, placing a huge economic burden on the rural population, and setting itself up as the ONLY legal suppler, something they have been trying to do since 1950. Corruption at every level...but I won't get into politics now will I!

[Pikey]

I looked into this, even if the feed stock was 80 to 100% cellulose, the aerobic bacterial fermentation needed, would not produce the amount of methanol W.H.O. claims was produced in Nigeria in 2015. The local Nigerian's were making wine from fermented dates, with a yeast fermentation that was then crudely distilled in a single run pot still into a traditional form of gin, local custom and LEGAL. But this local gin was supposed to contain 16.3% methanol and killed 89 people. Can you say "Wag the F--ing Dog" The Nigerian Government promptly make all locally made gin illegal, placing a huge economic burden on the rural population, and setting itself up as the ONLY legal suppler, something they have been trying to do since 1950. Corruption at every level...but I won't get into politics now will I!

So is the "theory" that the "official" sources somehow added methanol in huge quantities, or that some local "bootlegger" poured the crud in ?

[thecroweater]

You can get methanol in Australia.
My son used to get 44 Imperial Gallon drums (well, one, from time to time) (205 litres I think, 55 gallons American) to make his biodiesel. Geoff

For sure you can, remember those lads that got killed and injured up Queensland drinking "moonshine" a few years back? Well what they actually drink was commercially obtained methanol bought for the production of biodiesel. That did eventually come out in the ABC police reports but there was zero corrections or retractions by the mainstream misleaders (as per usual) was the same with the "methanol" poisoning down in Taz which was actually two clowns drinking opium milk. It seems pretty close to 100% of these reports at least in Australia as spurious as hell. That could be due to both ignorance and a reluctance to do any research was so ever or even look into published police reports but I think it has more to due with matching stories to adgendas.
Let's take this little gem from the Strayan tax office, admittedly mention of methanol has been removed but the skull and crossbones are still there

https://youtu.be/gDh9IAQGfEs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[kiwi Bruce]

So is the "theory" that the "official" sources somehow added methanol in huge quantities, or that some local "bootlegger" poured the crud in ?

The gin was legal, and made by locals for local consumption, so it wasn't ever made by "bootleggers" that's not to say that someone didn't get greedy or just F--k up and add commercial methanol...but for the W.H.O. to say that a regular yeast fermentation of dates can produce methanol like this is, in my opinion BS.

[engunear]

I looked into this, even if the feed stock was 80 to 100% cellulose, the aerobic bacterial fermentation needed

Are you thinking of a microbial breakdown of cellulose as a source of methanol? I know methanol is traditionally made by heating cellulose, but a microbe that did this would be commercially very important and so (I would have thought) well known. The common organisms that break down cellulose are in the guts of ruminants and termites, but I don't know their pathway ... to glucose so cattle can digest?.

Is there a reason that yeasts ferment to ethanol not methanol? I looked at the chemical structure of glucose and could see no natural places of cleavage that left carbon atoms in pairs. If there were a chemical explanation of this, it would rule out big slabs of reporting.

[shadylane]

Another dig around the net found a possible answer:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/M ... bb58b691ab

"""" Background: It is believed that higher methanol content may be present in some alcoholic drinks produced by traditional distilleries or some alcohol brewing companies. As a result of this, there could be a higher risk of methanol concentration in products. Therefore, this research focused on quantifying the amount of methanol in some fermented foods and alcoholic drinks by Gas Chromatography. The method was validated for limit of detection, limit of quantification, and recovery. Results: The results showed some level of methanol in some of the studied local and foreign alcoholic drinks between the ranges of 0.003-0.161% Vol """

I was expecting more methanol than that
An orange or over ripe banana has that much

[kiwi Bruce]

I looked into this, even if the feed stock was 80 to 100% cellulose, the aerobic bacterial fermentation needed

Are you thinking of a microbial breakdown of cellulose as a source of methanol?

NOOOO...Not me!...the W.H.O. said this! That this was their explanation for the 16.3% methanol found in this local Nigerian gin, which is why I'm calling Bullst*#t on this...and the fact that the Nigerian Government was so quick to jump on the opportunity to ban/outlaw all locally made product and set themselves up as the only legal suppler.

"""" The results showed some level of methanol in some of the studied local and foreign alcoholic drinks between the ranges of 0.003-0.161% Vol """
I was expecting more methanol than that
An orange or over ripe banana has that much

Exactly!!! Not 16.3%!

[Sunshineer]

Yea, kids will drink anything these days. Shine is the least of the worries. I heard a blip in the news the other day about kids getting drunk on hand sanitizer. Heard of washing a kids mouth out with soap but never knew they liked it!

Almost as bad as kids who lick toads to get high.