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It has been about 10 days since I put some of the fresh kiln dried oak that I tried to rapid season on some white whisky I had. I also made a test jar using a piece of well seasoned white oak I cut from the forest. Thought it would make a fair comparison. The fresh wood is in the smaller jar. The aromas on both are very nice and both have a good flavor. The well seasoned oak test seems to have just a bit more depth of flavor though. It may be from it being a thicker and more dense piece of wood as well as being a little more charred. I could not really deep char the kiln dried piece since it was only 1/2 inch thick. All in all, I think it shows some promise for using store bought kiln dried white oak, for those that don't have a nice forest of white oak nearby to cut from. I think the next test would be comparing good 1/4 sawed wood against a regular flat plank wood. The 1/4 sawed should be a more dense cut as well as being cut closer to the heart of the log.

Heart wood is heart wood. Quarter sawn is simply the side view of a standard board. Should be no difference in QS vs a standard cut board, so long as both are from heartwood.

The reason why QS is often specified is for making barrels, where the direction of grain impacts how well the wood holds/passes liquid.

Otis

corene1 wrote:It has been about 10 days since I put some of the fresh kiln dried oak that I tried to rapid season on some white whisky I had. I also made a test jar using a piece of well seasoned white oak I cut from the forest. Thought it would make a fair comparison. The fresh wood is in the smaller jar. The aromas on both are very nice and both have a good flavor. The well seasoned oak test seems to have just a bit more depth of flavor though. It may be from it being a thicker and more dense piece of wood as well as being a little more charred. I could not really deep char the kiln dried piece since it was only 1/2 inch thick. All in all, I think it shows some promise for using store bought kiln dried white oak, for those that don't have a nice forest of white oak nearby to cut from. I think the next test would be comparing good 1/4 sawed wood against a regular flat plank wood. The 1/4 sawed should be a more dense cut as well as being cut closer to the heart of the log.

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That’s awesome. Maybe you can post how you did it as a tutorial and it can be stickied.

corene1 wrote: Now I think I will try and see what needs to be done to the fresh kiln dried oak to make it react the same as the seasoned oak. Any ideas?

Before I got a handle on broken barrel staves (local ace hardware) I looked into using fresh kiln dried oak from Lowes and found someone here on HD, who had a protocol for pre-treating said oak BEFORE toasting/charring. I know it involved boiling the wood three or four times in water and testing small pieces of it to tell when it was okay to toasting/charring...I'll have to do a full search as I can't find it right now.
It was almost the same procedure as conditioning a new wooden beer barrel, which involves filling them with very hot water and leaving them to soak for 24 hours and repeating it four or five times, then giving them a low alc beer rinse...should work for us as well.

When I worked in the whiskey industry I met yearly with a rep from the largest cooperage in the U.S. He told me that part of the seasoning process that is important is the role that fungus plays on the wood. Basically the oak is at maximum water saturation when it is freshly cut. Then when it is quartersawn and laid out to dry, various fungus will grow on the wood and send out microscopic hyphae. The hyphae will produce hydrogen peroxide and some enzymes that will break down the wood for the fungus to grow. As the wood dries out, that fungus can no longer survive, and will be replaced by another species that thrives on the slightly drier wood. This will happen a few times until the wood is something like 5% water. The end result is a wood that has been chemically 'etched' to break down some of those harsh tanins, cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin, etc.

So there's the answer...Does white oak need to be aged? ABSOLUTELY!

I don’t know much about ageing wood but I do know a bit about mycology, and that sounds unlikely.

OtisT wrote:Heart wood is heart wood. Quarter sawn is simply the side view of a standard board. Should be no difference in QS vs a standard cut board, so long as both are from heartwood.

The reason why QS is often specified is for making barrels, where the direction of grain impacts how well the wood holds/passes liquid.

Otis

That is true , I was just wondering if the tighter grain profile of quartersawn oak versus the flatter grain profile on a plank cut oak would release it's properties faster and would affect the amount of time the spirit should be left on oak without over oaking.

popcorn2014 wrote:I don’t know much about ageing wood but I do know a bit about mycology, and that sounds unlikely.

Since you seem to be interested in seasoning oak before use, I can find some articles about wood fungus that might change your mind?

AlChemE wrote:

popcorn2014 wrote:I don’t know much about ageing wood but I do know a bit about mycology, and that sounds unlikely.

Since you seem to be interested in seasoning oak before use, I can find some articles about wood fungus that might change your mind?

That would be great.

So the problem that I am running into is that there are plenty of peer reviewed articles out there on the subject, but it can't be accessed for free. So I tried to find other articles/blogs that can be accessed.

This guy puts out some neat articles on his blog, it's probably the easiest of all to read.
http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2013/1 ... tians.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This is academic source is a gold mine of info. It's mostly centered around wine, but either way the fungus/wood has the same interaction with the wood.
http://www.academicwino.com/2011/12/usi ... s-to.html/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

While this doesn't specifically talk about white oak and whiskey aging, it does talk about how kiln drying vs. wood seasoning and the effect that fungus plays in the process. It mentions how fungus will send out hyphae to break down wood components (cellulose, lignin) which supports other claims made.
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmed ... NR-155.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I wasn't able to access the full articles, but the abstract states that air seasoning causes microflora to effect the woods composition.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Beverages" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

-Vivas N, Amrani-Joutei K, Glories Y, Doneche B, Brechenmache C. Development of microorganisms in oak heartwood (Quercus petraea Liebl.) during natural drying in open air conditions. Ann. For. Sci. 1997;54:563–571. doi: 10.1051/forest:19970606.

In my experience working at a large scale distillery, the Distillers Select wood that we used, that had been air seasoned for longer than the standard line of barrels, had a distinctly better nose and palate. I had heared from the cooperage that it was due to the UV exposure, leaching of harsh components, and the partial degradation of the wood from fungus/microflora. But either way, kiln dried wood is no good...

AlChemE wrote: But either way, kiln dried wood is no good...

But can it be made good...or at least better, for those who can't get weathered white oak?

I'm actually experimenting now with this. I soaked a board of white oak in water for a few weeks and then placed outside to season. I have about a year to go before I make it into a badmo barrel, and then another year after for the whiskey to age...

I know some people have tried this on the Badmo barrel thread, but I can't remember if they ever reported back or if they still are waiting for the wood to season.

kiwi Bruce wrote:

AlChemE wrote: But either way, kiln dried wood is no good...

But can it be made good...or at least better, for those who can't get weathered white oak?

My American White oak came from the merchant as kiln dried. I seasoned it for 12 months (then a further 6 months covered).
The before and after difference was significant.

One of the very large cooperages sources kiln dried oak, so it absolutely can be done.

I was sort of hoping it would be more like,
1) Cut into 1" X 1" X 5" pieces, put into a pot of boiling water for 3 hours.
2) Toast in the oven at 225F for an hour.
3) Trample under the muddy feet of a friendly mountain troll for 15 minutes.
4) Return to the boiling water for a hour.
5) Oak is now ready to use!

Along with microbial activity, you also get shrinking/cracking/expanding, which in turn promotes more access to the wood.
A single wet-dry cycle in short succession wouldn't achieve the same result.

Boiling water can turn a virgin piece of oak into odorless, flavourless straw after 10 minutes in my experience.

Well with all this we still don’t have any sort of online vendor to ship white oak besides pre toasted stuff??

AlChemE wrote:...either way, kiln dried wood is no good.

Nope, again I wiil not sit by and let anyone describe kiln dried white oak as “no good.”

I’m not criticizing aged, weathered, moldy oak, I’m just saying nobody needs to wait 2 years to make good whiskey.

I’ve never even used anything except kiln dried oak and I honestly have no interest in stacking a pile of fresh oak in the back yard for a year or two to see if there is a difference. I mean, who’s got that kinda time??
I’m happy with my results.

I’ve gotten great smooth flavors, caramel, vanilla, butterscotch, etc with wood from the kiln.
I have no interest in arguing about it, just throwing in my personal experience for any noob that comes along here and gets discouraged thinking they can ONLY use weathered wood.

MichiganCornhusker wrote:

AlChemE wrote:...either way, kiln dried wood is no good.

Nope, again I wiil not sit by and let anyone describe kiln dried white oak as “no good.”

I’m not criticizing aged, weathered, moldy oak, I’m just saying nobody needs to wait 2 years to make good whiskey.

I’ve never even used anything except kiln dried oak and I honestly have no interest in stacking a pile of fresh oak in the back yard for a year or two to see if there is a difference. I mean, who’s got that kinda time??
I’m happy with my results.

I’ve gotten great smooth flavors, caramel, vanilla, butterscotch, etc with wood from the kiln.
I have no interest in arguing about it, just throwing in my personal experience for any noob that comes along here and gets discouraged thinking they can ONLY use weathered wood.

That is the good thing about not being scientific, we don't know that we aren't supposed to do stuff so we just give it a try and see what happens. I just tasted the 2 sample jars I have from the little test I did and they both taste the same to me after 30 days on oak.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to stir the shit pot, but I know the end goal for many here is to produce a product that is better than anything off the shelf at the liquor store. And to do that, we have to adopt methods that have been practiced by the professionals for decades (centuries?). Saying kiln dried wood is no good may have been extreme, but if you want to take your distilling to the next level, you got to try and get quality wood. They say whiskey gets something like 70% of its flavor from the wood. So if you're a newcomer, I'm not trying to discourage people, rather give them some background so they can ask questions like, "what is your wood drying procedure" next time they want to buy a spiral aging stick/cube/chip/etc.

Use and get what you can. Stack some wood out back and move along. There’s also a big difference between one year and 12 years.

Cheers
-jonny

And there you have it . Time is one thing you can not rush.
There again is that big problem that not everyone has natural aged wood to choose from. I was talking to my son this past weekend and thought about cutting a bunch of good aged and dry oak rounds just for the purpose of having it available to folks here that may want to try it for a minimal charge to cover shipping. We were thinking of cutting 4,5 and 6 inch rounds for various lengths of sticks and check into the USPS if it fits it ships boxes. Wood cutting season doesn't start until April so it would be after that. I have sent some wood to a few folks here on HD but haven't heard back from them to hear their results. Also no knots in the wood just straight grain. Knots go into the smoker.

MichiganCornhusker wrote:[I’ve never even used anything except kiln dried oak... I’m happy with my results.

Michigan Corn husker...do you use it, as-is, or do you prepare it first...and 2nd Q is:- What do you use it in?

No prep, I just cut it up and toast/char.
I do get my wood from a wholesale lumber yard, thick planks and rough sawn, but definitely dried.
I haven't used the smooth planed pre-cut stuff from a big box store, not sure if that would make any difference.

I use it mostly in whiskey, but I've used it in rums, sweet taters, yams, maple sap, etc.

I do have that same experiences that I think many of us have, sometimes over oaked, sometimes too hot a toast temp... Processes that didn't always work out.
But, I've never had a flavor that made me think the actual wood was bad in any way.

I just had a glass of Honey Bear last night that I thought was delicious.

I am in no way against the use of seasoned wood, there are just so many other variables that I think have greater impact on my whiskey.
Perhaps someday I'll do a side by side batch to see what I think.

I found this in an article from "The Bourbon Review"
It’s accepted that air seasoning is better than kiln drying (it reduces tannic astringency as well as releases more vanillin), yet, while the barrels used to age wine may be made of staves which have been air dried for as much as 24 months – most bourbon whiskey barrels are made from wood which has been kiln dried in a matter of weeks.

Why? Some distillers think that the method for drying the wood is only important for the first-fill of a spirit aged in a new cask, (e.g., wine or bourbon) and has little or no impact when maturing spirits in previously used casks – and of course, Scotch is aged in previously used casks.
Here is the whole nine yards...http://www.gobourbon.com/using-oak-barr ... e-whiskey/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow