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Thanks Bill! It isn't the first time I make it. I expect it to taste pretty darn good pretty quickly. The blackstrap I used earlier took longer to mellow out, but my current molasses are of a higher grade.

Regards, Odin.

We have made 12 samples at 45, 48, and 51%, with different levels of back sugaring. Testing in a few days. That is on the Muscovado Rum.

I also started a bigger scale molasse ferment in the iStill 2000. Around 1950 liter or 500 gallons.

Here are a few pics ...

Regards, Odin.

Question on FG on a molasses rum ferment: what kind of numbers do the rum makers see? We are at 1.014 currently, and it is still bubbling, but slower and sweet taste is all but gone. Thinking particles and (especially) unfermentable sugars throw things off, but can't seem to find my notes on previous rum batches, so anyone else's numbers would be helpful.

Regards, Odin.

When I do molasses rums my sg never finishes at 1 or below, at least with a hydrometer floating because of the solids and unfermentables.
1.020ish isn't uncommon but i go by taste alone on these not by numbers.

Im sure you know but I'll state anyways for anyone who doesn't and is reading this, molasses is full of nutrients so you shouldn't need to add any for a ferment but I and some others will add some Epsom salts for the magnesium as it helps the ferment roll right along.

I have done without with success as well.

Shine0n

Thanks. Yep, molasses is full of nutrients. What we do is analyse things and make an additional dosage anyhow that covers all bases, like cell wall growth, ATP storage, etc. It allows us an easy and relatively affordable way to make rum at the exact esterification profile we like it, with the timelines we need. Clearly, we are talking professional distilling here, but that is our business. On my own, on the previous batches, I couldn't care and a day or two more and a bit more or less flavor here or there ... well, part of the fun, isn't it? But on a professional scale with big production units, adhering to preset production planning and associated delivery numbers and dates, it becomes a process thing. The fun about the 9 months research we did into yeast nutrients is that we found ways of creating a higher yield faster, while not compromising on flavor intensity. A bit off topic, and maybe interesting in another tread, but since it was brought up, and I mentioned it in the original post here, I thought to add that bit of information.

Regards, Odin.

Results from four ferments;

Panella/Jaggery, no dunder
1064-996
1063-992

Stockfood molasses, no dunder
1098-1026
1078-1019

Thanks NZ! Panella makes sense. Basically a sugar, high fermentable, low non-fermetable organics fermentation. With molasses being quite the opposite. We are currently at SG 1.013 and that seems pretty low when compared to your results and the results shared by ShineOn. Great. Tasting it, I'd say my molasses ferment is done. Looking at it, well, it still shows some bubble activity, so my take on it is that the yeast is still munching away at some semi-unfermentables. We'll run it on Monday, when a new class starts. I'll keep you guys posted.

Regards, Odin.

When using dunder, I take the SG of the dunder to help arrive at a suitable target OG for the ferment. The Jaggery dunders were 1008, but Molasses dunders can be much higher and need to be taken into consideration when designing the next ferment, especially if you are using a high proportion.

I've seen SG described as meaningless for rum by quite a few posters here, but it isn't in my shed.

I love SG. And even with the challenges the molasses can give, well, if you use the same substrate, it is a fast learning curve.

My two cents on it.

Regards, Odin.

If it’s more fizzing than bubbling might just be co2 gradually leaving solution?

Maybe, maybe. But I have always struggled with that concept of co2 gradually leaving the solution. I feel it does, when stirred. Or when the ferment cools down. But - with a waterlock in place - the fermentation needs to overcome the water pressure in that lock. So it needs to equal that plus some, which means it is always pushing, until it stops and - my take - as long as the waterlock remains, a mother level of co2 must remain ...

I'd need to do more research to be sure of this, but degassing needs to go at the cost of energy expenditure somewhere else. Either open top and "dilution" of the co2 bed above slowly draws co2 out of wash. Or the ferment stopping to create heat, 'cause it is done, and the cooling down and (limited) shrinking of the wash providing that context, or us agitating it.

Hence my explanation that some (less fermentable) sugars are still slowly being processed.

Regards, Odin.

Odin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:26 am Question on FG on a molasses rum ferment: what kind of numbers do the rum makers see? We are at 1.014 currently, and it is still bubbling, but slower and sweet taste is all but gone. Thinking particles and (especially) unfermentable sugars throw things off, but can't seem to find my notes on previous rum batches, so anyone else's numbers would be helpful.

Regards, Odin.

Here’s a link to how I make mine with All Molasses. It contains detail about start gravity , pH and temp and also finish gravity , pH . You might be surprised.

Rum talk

My wife found my Panela for her canning and cooking recipes. Guess I am going to have to put a lock on my containers.

Woot, woot! Doing a single run approach on the 2000 liter molasses ferment! Amazing flavors coming over. Running the unit at 90% power (of 36 kW) with ABV-Control on, meaning the software manages the needle-valve to keep the output at a constant 65%. As boiler percentage drop, more reflux results in more redistillations and keeps the proof up to the set goal. The fun is that towards the end of the run, more and more distillations are needed, pushing tails backwards, increasing yield while maximizing flavor in this case.

I designed ABV-C in such a way that you just dial in the percentage you want your booze to come over. And there are two basic profiles to choose from. "Pure" is aimed at perfect separation of heads from hearts from tails. "Taste" aims to maximize flavor. Of course, for the rum, the setting was "Taste". Expecting to get some 225 liters of hearts at around 65%. Basically ... a barrel.

Flavor and yield wise this was a huge success. So I want to take another step forward. Over the last 9 months we have researched yeast, attenuation, and esterification. Simply put a faster ferment lowers total (potential) flavor profile. Slower ferments are a production bottle-neck, but the longer fermentation time positively impact flavor development. More time for them esters to form. The research has allowed us to create faster ferments and higher yields while having the ester profile of a slower fermentation. Basically this allows us to half fermentation time, gain better yield (5-10%), without compromizing on flavor development (basically doubling esterification speeds).

So that's what's next on the agenda. Another molasses ferment in the i2000. This time with the iFeed formula. Loving it, when a plan comes together!

Regards, Odin.

@odin what was your final 60% molasses mix for fermentation of 1,950L for the Istill2000 ?? Water to molasses, ferment aid and yeast ?? OG, FG, temp and PH ??

I used 400 liters of molasses, the rest is water. I added 1250 grams of baker's yeast. Didn't add the ferment aid we have designed, I added some DAP and some generic yeast nutrient. Didn't measure OG. FG was 1.012. pH stayed in the 5.0 range, with 4.9 and 5.2 being the extreme values. I controlled fermentation temperature at 32.0 degrees Centigrade.

By the first look of it we collected a whopping 270 liters. ABV to be determined soon. Back calculation on fermentation ABV afterwards.

Brilliant, thanks

So we collected an amazing 270 liters at 69% of hearts. Some 8 liters of heads. Prolly some 20-30 liters of tails left in the boiler. Calculating backwards, the rum wines must have been 10%. Spot on. Very happy with results and yield.

Regards, Odin.

Have you thought about drawing off fusels from the bottom of the column to extend the heart cut? I have the capability, but I've never run a rum wash in a column, preferring to double pot still my rums for the economy and for the ease of selecting cuts, so I don't know how well it works.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70666

270 liters of hearts but only 8 liters of heads? That's some impressive stilling!

How much backsugaring are you testing? I've been exploring random commercial white rums and I just ran into one that is sickly sweet. Not at all what I expected from a 40% rum.

Syke, in fact I think the 8 liters of heads is a bit too much. For a whiskey we usually collect less than a liter. Then again ... that's with 3 years of aging in the barrel as the next step, and I wanted this rum to be as drinkable as possible as quickly as possible. And the great news is that it is. Not just drinkable, but very enjoyable fresh from the still.

Backsugaring ... I am working with 0 grams per liter, 5 grams per liter, 10 grams per liter and 15 grams per liter. So maximum 1.5%, probably less. Just to try out what's best.

Chris, I am not a fan of that. I understand it in continuous distillation, because there can be a build up of tailsy components, so bleeding can make sense. But with my approach, it is batch distilling, so there is a given amount of tailsy components, that the unit takes care of perfectly: towards the end of the run more redistillations are required to bring the low ABV remaining boiler charge to the 62/63% we aimed for. Every distillation cycle offers a 2/3rd (ish) auto-selection for tails to be moved DOWN the column. This works so well that I can easily distill till 99C in the bottom of the column, with the boiler maybe being 99.8 degrees Centigrade or thereabouts (basically water and some tails). The rum, higher up in the column, still comes over at 62/63%. What bleeds back to the boiler is pretty much stripped of any (good) ethanol. So also no need to draw off fusils at the bottom of the column. In fact, I estimate (but could be wrong) that if we did that, we create less of a temperature difference, actually increasing the potential for smearing too many tails into hearts. It might actually be counter productive.

Odin.

Odin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:30 am
Flavor and yield wise this was a huge success. So I want to take another step forward. Over the last 9 months we have researched yeast, attenuation, and esterification. Simply put a faster ferment lowers total (potential) flavor profile. Slower ferments are a production bottle-neck, but the longer fermentation time positively impact flavor development. More time for them esters to form. The research has allowed us to create faster ferments and higher yields while having the ester profile of a slower fermentation. Basically this allows us to half fermentation time, gain better yield (5-10%), without compromizing on flavor development (basically doubling esterification speeds).

I'm very interested in this! I'm thinking a specific yeast culture isn't your thing as I don't know if you're selling yeast. I also think dunder pits are out of the question. You couldn't sell them because you have no control of it when the client has taken delivery. Are you playing with beneficial bacteria, or yeast nutrients that happen to be precursors to flavor molecules?

Your assumptions on my thinking about yeast and dunder pits are wrong, as is the underlying assumption that I am here to sell. I think both pits and yeast are important to rum and have done extensive research on them, much of which has been shared on these forums.

Basically analyzing ester profiles can be done "reverse". What flavors are we looking for in a drink and how do they associate with certain esters. Then the question becomes "are the precursors to these esters available? The trick is in analyzing your substrate and creating the most healthy environment for the yeast, while providing all the building blocks for their health and esterification.

I'm sorry if my post came over wrong, I know you're not here to sell, and I and many others have gained a lot from yoir contributions. I was just thinking how you were going about getting more flavor in less fermenting time. I just thought that you like things as repeatable as possible, which was what I meant with the dunder pit, which can give lots of interesting possibilities but isn't very repeatable in its contents, at least on a home gamer level.
The things I said about selling was based on my assumption that you can make a process repeatable, which would be a good thing for your business. No negative meanings attached.
Aren't esters basically a combination of acids and alcohols? Does your nutrient mix consist of pure acids or acid producing bacteria? I think I've read articles where lost spirits produce high ester rum by using acid and bacterial strains instead of dunder in their rum washes.
Also Savanna released some high ester bottlings, where I feel they where testing how to max out differend kinds of esters. I'm wondering how they went about that, but my google skills are rather limited.

I'm very thrilled to be reading about rum. It's my favorite spirit!

Thanks for clarifying. Much appreciated. Adding acids or acid producing bacteria is like mimicking dunder pits in a way. Sour and bacteria infected.

Regards, Odin.

Corsaire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:55 am I just thought that you like things as repeatable as possible, which was what I meant with the dunder pit, which can give lots of interesting possibilities but isn't very repeatable in its contents, at least on a home gamer level.

Consistent flavor profiles from commercial rum distillers comes more from blending skills than from consistent ferments and distillations. Run some through a column, some through a pot, some with dunder, some with muck & trash essence, some with Lime Salts, high ester, low ester and anything else you might think is beneficial, then blend yourself a product you like out of your collection.

I know, that's how the big outfits work. Which is why I'm so amped to hear that this process might be more easily controlled in a way home distillers can utilize. I'd love to be able to stash barrels of rum and make blends, but that won't happen very soon.

I think it is quite easy to control. Or lets rephrase that: I have been working relentlessly to bring reproducibility to the craft distiller. That and control over flavor in an efficient manner. I feel craft distillers - long term - only stand a chance against the bigger players in the industry if they make better product consistently, and at a price point as close as possible to the big boys. Ultra-controlled mashing, fermenting, and distilling is where that starts.

Odin.

Odin wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:53 am I think it is quite easy to control. Or lets rephrase that: I have been working relentlessly to bring reproducibility to the craft distiller. That and control over flavor in an efficient manner. I feel craft distillers - long term - only stand a chance against the bigger players in the industry if they make better product consistently, and at a price point as close as possible to the big boys. Ultra-controlled mashing, fermenting, and distilling is where that starts.

Odin.

Where's the LIKE button? ^^^^^^

Where's the LIKE button? ^^^^^^

Ditto^^^^