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Until I’m confident what the taste I’m looking for is like then hell yeah - numbers don’t lie (as long as they are properly analysed - like I said, I’m a scientist)

Hermanji wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:26 pm Until I’m confident what the taste I’m looking for is like then hell yeah - numbers don’t lie (as long as they are properly analysed - like I said, I’m a scientist)

I would bet the commercial distillers have the temps down to a science. (pun intended) They probably also taste and monitor abv. What they don't do is collect in many vessels and proof/taste each one to figure where the hearts are. LOL

And your taste buds do lie?

Saltbush Bill wrote:And your taste buds do lie?

Yes. My taste buds can lie. And my sense of smell. I was handling ketones yesterday that smelt like pear drops, nice and sweet. They would give you a banging head if you drank it though.

But like I said... the gold standard for me will be when I can trust my senses - for that I feel the need to train them.

Some people can make good liquor, and some people are good at math. Distilling is an art, not a text book.

Force yourself to be uncomfortable, and allow yourself to make mistakes. It's the only way to actually learn something.

By the way... my vodka is 95.6% from first heads drop to last skanky tail. What's abv going to tell you there? Not a damn thing.

Hermanji wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:12 pm
But like I said... the gold standard for me will be when I can trust my senses - for that I feel the need to train them.

Since every recipe, every mash, every ferment, yada yada is different, one cannot reliably depend on numbers - there's just not enough consistency.

And that gold standard will soon be your plain 'ol standard, strong and reliable, as soon as you get a few batches under your belt.

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:23 pm By the way... my vodka is 95.6% from first heads drop to last skanky tail. What's abv going to tell you there? Not a damn thing.

And there is a very good piece of advice that you need to think about.
The sooner you forget about numbers and start to train and trust your senses, the sooner you will be good at making cuts.

6 Row Joe wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:33 pm

Hermanji wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:26 pm Until I’m confident what the taste I’m looking for is like then hell yeah - numbers don’t lie (as long as they are properly analysed - like I said, I’m a scientist)

I would bet the commercial distillers have the temps down to a science. (pun intended) They probably also taste and monitor abv. What they don't do is collect in many vessels and proof/taste each one to figure where the hearts are. LOL

Many commercial distilleries have all still output running into a spirit safe that is locked and you can't taste/smell the distillate. Temps and ABV decide when cuts happen.

Distilling is a science based on physics and chemical properties that take place. A person who understands these things should be able to make darn good spirits just like a person can purchase ingredients, follow a recipe and make a damn fine meal. Doesn't make them a chef but non the less a fine meal is served. The "art" is akin to a chef playing with ingredients to tweak a recipe or the process used, how much heat and how long, etc. But that doesn't change basic properties of distillation where under controlled running you will know when hearts start and end based on the proof and temps. Leaning how much late heads or early tails to mix in with your hearts is subjective and personal and could be considered part of the "art" of distilling.

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:23 pm By the way... my vodka is 95.6% from first heads drop to last skanky tail. What's abv going to tell you there? Not a damn thing.

That's certainly true but the vapor and boiler temps are what to watch. Ever wonder how automated stills (computer controlled) determine these things on reflux stills? Temp difference at the top and bottom of the column as well as right below the deflag tell you a lot as well as the boiler temp. It's physics with known outcomes of how things work.

Parrot smearing, only if it has no dump mechanism or you don't know how to use that mechanism. I like to use my parrot on my reflux runs at high ABV. I like to make cuts at any change including drop in ABV. My parrot dump is 250ml which I think is plenty small enough for a cut for anybody, so just use it wisely and you eliminate any smearing. Dump, let fill, take reading, simple. Leave it online to watch for changes, or keep valve open till you want a reading of the next 250ml. Nice simple tool, bad rep.

cayars wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:24 am I would bet the commercial distillers have the temps down to a science. (pun intended) They probably also taste and monitor abv. What they don't do is collect in many vessels and proof/taste each one to figure where the hearts are. LOL
Many commercial distilleries have all still output running into a spirit safe that is locked and you can't taste/smell the distillate. Temps and ABV decide when cuts happen.

I agree. But they have meticulously controlled ferments and processes, something the beginning distiller doesn't have. I'm still wet behind the ears but I doubt I'll ever do the same ferments over and over to run them by temp and abv.
Brandy makers here don't run by numbers either, as fruit ferments always vary year to year.

cayars wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:24 am That's certainly true but the vapor and boiler temps are what to watch. Ever wonder how automated stills (computer controlled) determine these things on reflux stills? Temp difference at the top and bottom of the column as well as right below the deflag tell you a lot as well as the boiler temp. It's physics with known outcomes of how things work.

True again. But I don't know where Hermanji takes his temperature readings, so even if he did log all those temperatures he'd still need to learn what hides where. I'm pretty sure Odin for example spent a long time determining the set points for his stills.
So again, taking cuts by abv is not a good idea for the beginner.

That said, my brother loves coding and logging stuff so we are going to build a semi automated still together for shits and giggles. After I finish my keg still

Ever wonder why on the brown spirit side of business, master blenders are held in higher regard then still operators?

Btw, Hermanji, not knocking you or your scientific approach.
I'm just trying to get across that you need to train your tastebuds and not drive your rig on numbers you found online or research papers.
Maybe I'll arrive at set procedures someday. Right now I find doing cuts is the easy (and fun) part. Deciding what ferment to put down next is way harder for me.

Corsaire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:14 am Ever wonder why on the brown spirit side of business, master blenders are held in higher regard then still operators?

Creating a process to give you a ferment that's the same every time, running it through the still using the same ABV and proof outputs is not hard either. Hell anyone can do this through trial and error or can be be pretty automated.

Putting that spirit in a barrel where every barrel is slightly different. Where it is stored in a warehouse how it's rotated (if at all), how long it ages. What temps and humidity you allow it to experience. Where you get the barrels, what toast and char you prefer. How to get the best $ from your product by mixing old and new spirits together... Creating the same taste profile month after month, year after year when having to select from 60 to 80 different barrels to pick what goes in the blend. Figuring out which barrels blended are best at cask, bonded or 80 proof. Imagine having to go through thousands of barrels to mix and match those 60 to 80 barrels you can dump at one time to bottle. Now imagine having 4 or 5 different products lines/labels that you have to do this for.

Now that is ART! Think of the years of experience and dedication it takes to do this. "Master Blender" doesn't even do them justice in name.

Trial and error indeed. During which you train your senses. This is why I recommend new distillers not to run off numbers but using their nose and tastebuds. I'm sure the first products you made weren't as good as what you're making now. There's a learning curve. Once you know what you're doing, sure try to automate or cut by numbers. I don't care, and I don't judge. Just don't feed the new stillers into here's the magic number you need to hit.

That said, master blenders are known to determine the cut points off the still on the fly where this is not automated.

Corsaire wrote:Btw, Hermanji, not knocking you or your scientific approach.
I'm just trying to get across that you need to train your tastebuds and not drive your rig on numbers you found online or research papers.

Thanks. This is really what I was trying to say that I’m cautiously doing.

So, to get the thread back from the hijackers..

I built a classic parrot, but I like that one with the bypass valve, it's something I've been thinking about rebuilding one and adding in a splitter so I can switch between collection jars without having to swap out mid-stream.

Thanks Windswept for getting the post back on track. I think that’s the route I’m going to take also seems quite functional. I’ve collected most of the parts needed I’m just a bit concerned about the shutoff valve as most I find are made from brass.

Slow42 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:24 am Thanks Windswept for getting the post back on track. I think that’s the route I’m going to take also seems quite functional. I’ve collected most of the parts needed I’m just a bit concerned about the shutoff valve as most I find are made from brass.

I had a look at McMaster Carr for 3-way valves and they're crazy expensive in stainless.

Distillex has some cheaper options, but the 3-way are bigger than I'd like.

https://distillex.aliexpress.com/store/ ... 1554.1_2_5

You don't need a three way for a dump valve.

NZChris wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:32 pm You don't need a three way for a dump valve.

That was a productive statement!

Slow42 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:30 pm

NZChris wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:32 pm You don't need a three way for a dump valve.

That was a productive statement!

Do you think an expensive three way valve is needed to drain a parrot?

I guess that depends on what your trying to do. Everyone has a different view of what they would like to accomplish. Are the valves expensive I don’t know and if they are so what. I’ve seen some very expense equipment on this site well above what might I might spend but obviously it being done.

Windswept wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:37 am I had a look at McMaster Carr for 3-way valves and they're crazy expensive in stainless.

Distillex has some cheaper options, but the 3-way are bigger than I'd like.

https://distillex.aliexpress.com/store/ ... 1554.1_2_5

Brewershardware.com has a 3/4" T-type 3-way valve.

It's a bit more expensive than the distillex version, but it would ship faster.

They’re about 8$ on Ali express. I thought it would be neat to have a valve to divert the flow from one collection container to another, like a poor mans whisky safe.

Windswept never would have thought about doing that; excellent idea!

just be aware there's 2 types of 3 way valve

You can use a t. Connect the middle part to the condenser, upper part to the parrot and a cheap ball valve on the lower part. No 3 way valve needed.
More smearing though.

My Parrot is similar to the one Yummy posted the picture of.
Main difference with mine is:....The dump valve is on the bottom draining down.
I will get a picture & post. mine is ugly, not shiny. I like the look of patina on copper. The inside is clean & shiny just not the outside.
I have the valve open (not going into the tube of the parrot) when I start the run to collect the Fores.
Then collect heads the same way, in small jars.
When I think I am close to or into hearts I will close the valve, going through the parrot. Collect in 1 or 2 pint jars, then 3 or 4 quart Jars, then back to Pint jars. Once i think tails are getting close I will open valve again and collect without the parrot.
I think it helps to minimize smearing.

Hermanji wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:59 am Always interesting to hear the numbers vs senses argument. As a newbie myself (and a scientist) I find it hard to trust my untrained senses. Over time I hope to be more natural but I’m making conservative cuts using temps and abv first and taste second until I’m more attuned.

I use a glass test tube that the hydrometer fits nicely into and test abv at regular intervals recording temperatures, flavours, smells, textures, flame and bubble test [emoji1896]

Making alcohol is a science. Let the numbers help you get the chemistry right.
But making cuts is an art. Good likker, just like a good cut, is subjective. Taste, smell, feel, the product. Make the drink that suits your needs the most. There are no numbers that can do that for you. Youd just as soon measure the length of a 2x4 with a clock.

I might make that my signature quote for a bit...

On my parrot I bypass installing a valve on it.. mainly cause of the extra weight, but it really not needed..

What I've done instead is build an extra down pipe with a union.. use the down pipe for extracting the fores, then increase the flow to the reflux condenser, switch to the parrot, and rock and roll on..

If build to do so, it really does not take more time than to empty the parrot..

Mars