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You've said it's going to taste like shit and then want to debate about it, I won't debate with you because I 100% agree with you. It will taste like shit

If it wasn’t for Turbo Pure 48 yeast I wouldn’t have discovered forums such as this one. My first ever run I followed the instructions to the letter with all the added extras plus the charcoal filtration afterwards. I was gutted when I tried the product. It was so goddam awful. I had spent more than I could have really afforded at the time setting up the still etc. I thought there had to be a better way and sought help and information on the internet. There are of course many better ways!

kimbodious wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:57 pm If it wasn’t for Turbo Pure 48 yeast I wouldn’t have discovered forums such as this one....

After participating in this thread, I count myself lucky that Turbo, Youtube, Moonshiners TV and forums didn't exist when I was doing my research. It might have taken a bit longer to assemble everything, but I didn't get my head filled with silly ideas before I fired up for my first runs.

Sporacle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:40 pm You've said it's going to taste like shit and then want to debate about it, I won't debate with you because I 100% agree with you. It will taste like shit

People are just not getting it are they! I'm not looking to discuss the TASTE of high alcohol turbo washes. Because yes we agree on that.

What I want to discuss is the safety aspect of them.

I genuinely have no intention of using turbo 20% alcohol washes for my distillations in the future. I've already made it clear I have my own tried and tested methods.

What I want to discuss is the safety aspects of the 20% wash that i made as an experiment.

I want to discuss the bi products, are they trace amounts, large amounts, high enough to pose a health risk with smudged cuts ect.

I've already contacted alcotec directly about this and I'm awaiting a response from them.

If anyone actually wants to discuss the safety aspects I'm happy to do so!

I didn’t get sick or die when I drunk the Foreshots from my third batch of Turbo . ( first two I was being a good boy and following the instructions )
I was just curious as you are .

After that , I decided I didn’t like them …. ‘Cause they tasted horrible .


BTW , if you look up SDS for most chemicals found in distilled components , you can see the Lethal dose.

Most things will finally kill you , but its how much of them you wish to tolerate drinking ir eating that will get you there .

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:34 am I didn’t get sick or die when I drunk the Foreshots from my third batch of Turbo . ( first two I was being a good boy and following the instructions )
I was just curious as you are .

After that , I decided I didn’t like them …. ‘Cause they tasted horrible .


BTW , if you look up SDS for most chemicals found in distilled components , you can see the Lethal dose.

Most things will finally kill you , but its how much of them you wish to tolerate drinking ir eating that will get you there .

Thanks for the response and most interesting! This is the exact kind of discussion that I wanted. The science, the safety ect not the taste. Because we all agree it will be foul!

Regarding the SDS, wouldn't the majority of them compounds be removed in the foreshots? From what I understand even the heads shouldn't contain these toxins just the heads.

Assuming you removed 150ml from each 5lt surely these toxins would be removed in that cut?

Unfortunately, distillation doesn't work that way. Some components may come off in higher quantities in the foreshots and heads, but will still smear throughout the run.

Methanol for example can be found throughout the entire run, not just in the fores.

Sorry my bad didn't understand the parameters of the discussion that you wanted, I have absolutely zero to offer on this subject or anything related to it

Dathhu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:48 am Unfortunately, distillation doesn't work that way. Some components may come off in higher quantities in the foreshots and heads, but will still smear throughout the run.

Methanol for example can be found throughout the entire run, not just in the fores.

Interesting stuff! Though not relevant regarding methanol as methanol isn't produced in a sugar wash. As a side question not related to this discussion, how is methanol actually removed from a wash if it doesn't come out in the foreshots?

Though regarding this discussion it still leaves a lot not answered.

What exactly are these compounds produced during high alcohol sugar washes? As in are different compounds produced when yeast is stressed compared to a normal sugar wash at say 10 percent? And the major question that I have is how much more of these toxic bi products are made from a 20% sugar wash compared to a normal sugar wash?

It's hard to work out risk from an SDS without knowing the extent which these bi products toxins are actually produced in a high alcohol sugar wash. Compared to a low ABV wash.

As in how much higher is the level of aceldehyde in a 20% wash compared to that of a 10% wash? Though I know aceldehyde isn't the problem as its metabolized into an acid by the liver when consumed via alcohol.

Though I know acetaldehyde isn't the problem as its metabolized into an acid by the liver when consumed via alcohol.

Ever heard of liver damage...


Byproducts still have to pass though the liver. Methanol was one example. Acetaldehyde, is another. Then there is acetone, ethyl acetate and more...

The point everyone is trying to make you understand is there will be all of these in your spirit. What makes it both an art and a science is getting it tasting good and being safe.

It's getting them to an acceptable limit, both taste and health wise.

If you don't get it by now you're not going to understand...

Best of luck, but I don't want to try any of your hooch.

P.S. methanol is still produced in a sugar wash

Asos21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:29 am

Dathhu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:48 am Unfortunately, distillation doesn't work that way. Some components may come off in higher quantities in the foreshots and heads, but will still smear throughout the run.

Methanol for example can be found throughout the entire run, not just in the fores.

Interesting stuff! Though not relevant regarding methanol as methanol isn't produced in a sugar wash. As a side question not related to this discussion, how is methanol actually removed from a wash if it doesn't come out in the foreshots?

Though regarding this discussion it still leaves a lot not answered.

What exactly are these compounds produced during high alcohol sugar washes? As in are different compounds produced when yeast is stressed compared to a normal sugar wash at say 10 percent? And the major question that I have is how much more of these toxic bi products are made from a 20% sugar wash compared to a normal sugar wash?

It's hard to work out risk from an SDS without knowing the extent which these bi products toxins are actually produced in a high alcohol sugar wash. Compared to a low ABV wash.

As in how much higher is the level of aceldehyde in a 20% wash compared to that of a 10% wash? Though I know aceldehyde isn't the problem as its metabolized into an acid by the liver when consumed via alcohol.

To understand the extent or quantum of byproducts produced you’ll need to send your samples to a laboratory. This process would be far outside the range of “hobby” Distilling but here’s a link that you may find interesting.

https://www.diffordsguide.com/encyclope ... stillation

Asos21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:29 am… As a side question not related to this discussion, how is methanol actually removed from a wash if it doesn't come out in the foreshots?

It isn’t! It is found throughout the distillate output. It forms an azeotropic bond with ethanol and as such, can’t be separated. Fortunately for you, your liver will metabolize the methanol along with the ethanol.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:29 am… Though regarding this discussion it still leaves a lot not answered.

What exactly are these compounds produced during high alcohol sugar washes? … And the major question that I have is how much more of these toxic bi products are made from a 20% sugar wash compared to a normal sugar wash?

Congeners are produced in the fermentation process and “stressed yeast” produces more of them as well as different proportions of several possible constituents. The congeners are responsible for “skull cracker”, or the notorious moonshine hangover.

If you break down alcohol into smaller compounds, you’d have mostly ethyl alcohol. But further still are compounds researchers call congeners. Researchers think these compounds may have something to do with “why you get a hangover”.

What are congeners?
A spirits manufacturer produces congeners during the fermentation or distillation process. During this process, a spirits producer will convert sugars into alcohol using different strains of yeasts. The yeasts convert amino acids naturally present in the sugars to ethyl alcohol, also known as ethanol.

But ethanol isn’t the only byproduct of the fermentation process. Congeners are there, too. The amount of congeners the manufacturer produces can depend upon the original sugar, or carbohydrate, sources used to make alcohol. Examples include cereal grains for beer or grapes for wine, or even processed cane sugar for classic “moonshine”.

Researchers currently think congeners can give beverages a certain taste and flavor. Some manufacturers even test for the amount of congeners to make sure their product has a consistent taste profile.

Examples of congeners the distillation process makes include:
- acids
- alcohols, such as isobutylene alcohol, which smells sweet
- aldehydes, such as acetaldehyde, which often has a fruity smell present in bourbons and rums
- esters
- ketones, acetone is common
- fusels, lower volatile products and found in the “tails”.

The amount of congeners present in alcohol can vary. As a general rule, the more distilled a spirit is, the lower the congeners, because of “heads & tails removal”. This is why some people may find that “top shelf” liquors that are highly distilled don’t give them a hangover as much as a lower-priced alternative.

Role in hangovers
Research suggests congener content may play a role in the occurrence of a hangover, but it probably isn’t the only factor. According to an article in the journal Alcohol and Alcoholism, drinking alcoholic beverages that have more congeners usually causes a worse hangover than drinks with fewer congeners.

Doctors still don’t have all the answers when it comes to hangovers, including why they occur in some people and not others. They don’t have all the answers for congeners and alcohol consumption, either. One of the current theories about alcohol and congeners related to hangovers is that the body has to break down congeners. Sometimes breaking down congeners competes with breaking down ethanol in the body. As a result, alcohol and its byproducts may linger for longer in the body, contributing to hangover symptoms.

In addition, congeners may stimulate the body to release stress hormones, such as norepinephrine and epinephrine. These can cause inflammatory responses in the body that lead to fatigue and other hangover symptoms.

Alcohol chart with congeners
Scientists have found lots of different congeners in alcohol. They haven’t connected one specific one with causing a hangover, just that their increased presence may worsen one. According to an article in the journal Alcohol and Alcoholism, the following are drinks in order from most to least congeners:
- High congeners: brandy, red wine, rum
- Medium congeners: whiskey, white wine, gin
- Low congeners: vodka, beer, ethanol (like vodka) diluted in orange juice

Scientists have also tested alcohol for the amount of individual congeners. For example, a 2013 article reports brandy has as much as 4,766 milligrams per liter of methanol, while beer has 27 milligrams per liter. Rum has as much as 3,633 milligrams per liter of the congener 1-propanol, while vodka has anywhere from none to 102 milligrams per liter. This supports the concept that vodka is a low congener drink. According to a 2010 study, vodka is a beverage that contains some of the least congeners of any drink. Mixing it with orange juice also helps neutralize some of the congeners present.

Another 2010 study Trusted Source, asked participants to consume either bourbon, vodka, or a placebo in similar amounts. The participants were then asked questions about their hangover, if they said they had a hangover. The researchers found that participants had a more severe hangover after consuming bourbon, which has a higher amount of congeners, compared to vodka. They concluded that increased presence of congeners contributed to hangover severity.

The bottom line
Researchers have linked congeners with worse hangovers. Current theories are that congeners affect the body’s abilities to break down ethanol as fast and trigger stress responses in the body. Since alcohol contributes to cell dehydration, drink plenty of water before and during the consumption of alcohol. Also, B-vitamins aid the body to metabolize alcohol as well, especially when adequately hydrated. The next time you have a night of drinking, you could try drinking a low congener spirit and see if you feel better than usual the next morning.

“happy yeast won’t shit in your fermenter”. So, make a good ferment and the product will be better (provided you make good, conservative cuts).
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This has all been extremely informative. Thank you very much everyone!

Though I'm definitely left with a few unanswered questions.

We clearly don't know how much of these congeners are produced in high alcohol washes because as stated they would have to be lab tested. So how do we know the amounts produced are not still trace amounts unlikely to do harm after cuts are made? Yes stressed yeast will produce more of these congeners but we clearly can't say whether they are still trace amounts or actually pose a health risk.

The whole congeners smearing across cuts is another thing that I just don't understand. Just to make clear, are people telling me that the likes of congeners like methanol can not be removed by taking out foreshots and heads? If so what's the point in removing foreshots entirely?

Regarding the 20% wash that I have made. In people's opinion, could it pose a health risk for me to taste the spirit? And if possible to save a few litres from some tight heart cuts. If it will pose a health risk of course I'll just use it for sack runs and I won't even taste it.

What does confuse me is how are companies like still spirits allowed to sell a produce which creates a toxic (dangerous) spirit?

I can assure you all I won't be attempting anything like this again! I'll stick with my usual turbo mega packs which dont ferment to anywhere near this percentage!

Asos21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:13 pm but we clearly can't say whether they are still trace amounts or actually pose a health risk.

That in its self is good enough reason to not make high ABV washes.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:13 pm congeners like methanol can not be removed by taking out foreshots and heads? If so what's the point in removing foreshots entirely?

Because we don't want to taste or smell things like Acetone.....which are also in the fores.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:13 pm I'll stick with my usual turbo mega packs which dont ferment to anywhere near this percentage!

Ask your self why if Turbo high ABV washes are such wonderful things the big commercial distillers refuse to use them.
It sure would up their productivity and profit margins if they did.
Sorry but I still don't get your dedication to using what is essentially a shit product when there are so many better things out there.

Asos,

This thread is redundant and not helpful. The only one that said high alcohol wash, or spirit from it, was dangerous was you. What people said in a kinder way was that it was stupid, and a pointless experiment from your approach. What was the goal of this so called experiment? Why do you keep repeating that it is dangerous?

If you weren't planning on drinking it, what the hell was the point of making a wash like that? This thread has taken its course, let it die. Move on, do better.

Edit* Posted same as salty.

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:41 pm Asos,

This thread is redundant and not helpful. The only one that said high alcohol wash, or spirit from it, was dangerous was you. What people said in a kinder way was that it was stupid, and a pointless experiment from your approach. What was the goal of this so called experiment? Why do you keep repeating that it is dangerous?

If you weren't planning on drinking it, what the hell was the point of making a wash like that? This thread has taken its course, let it die. Move on, do better.

Edit* Posted same as salty.

Honestly the point of this experiment was two things. The first was to create a large volume of alcohol that I could run through my stills for sack runs. To clean them out after soldering ect. I know most people are happy with one sack run but 2-3 makese feel better! The second point of this experiment was because I wanted to compare the off flavours myself between the silly high alcohol washes and my usual 15% wash. Because the normal mega pack 100 that I use definitely has off flavours. But I can nearly entirely remove them through 3 distillations and a carbon run. I wanted to see if the same was true for these higher percent washes. I'm the kind of person who has to try something for myself to be satisfied!

I'm the one who keeps saying dangerous because people have repeatedly stated that high alcohol washes are not safe and people have even mentioned liver damage.

I agree this thread needs to be left to die. Can people just tell me one thing. If I do manage to save any alcohol from this batch would it be actually safe to drink?

I do listen to the advice given and if the wash would be dangerous to run of course I wouldn't consume it.

I guess my biggest fear is methanol. As In could the wash potentially make dangerous levels of methanol with the yeast being stressed.

Again more than happy to kill this thread off. Just don't want to kill myself off!

It will be just as safe as any other crap drink at the store for $12 a bottle. Drink away.

That last post convinced me this is troll posting , Good luck in your endeavors where you end up .Your posting on this forum has come to a end .Read only all you will be allowed to do here .

Asos21 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:13 pm What does confuse me is how are companies like still spirits allowed to sell a produce which creates a toxic (dangerous) spirit?

This is why we can't have nice things in the US.