Should reflux still be full of fluid?

[shadylane]

It's a pot still.. why confuse a beginner into into believing he's got a reflux setup with refluxing abilities, cause this is what he questioned.. one can add all the packing he wants, and exterior cooling he's wants, it is still pot setup..

Yeah you will get some refluxing occurring, but is only passive refluxing occurring, which amount to very little in refluxing effect, and possibly less that using a thumper.. total waste of time trying to run a pot still in that configuration, as he has already experience by the times quoted in his running of the setup..

Mars

Stillerboy, I've got to call bullshit on those statements.
The dephleg in question isn't the best design but it's usable.
It can make enough reflux to flood the column.

[shadylane]

good job, you seem to have a handle on the basics now.
8-mile do a multi-pipe deflag condenser which is probably way more efficient and controllable than the jacket RC.
maybe you should consider adding another 600mm spool to increase the column height.

+1 a taller column will raise the proof.
For now, I'd have the sight glasses below the dephleg and filled with packing.
That will make use of what is already at hand.

[StillerBoy]

The dephleg in question isn't the best design but it's usable.
It can make enough reflux to flood the column. Yeah, after hours of running it at a very low power usage !

How can one call the cooling jacket a dephleg or even a condenser ? it is still a pot still with a fancy cooling jacket..

It's exactly the type of statement that confuses beginner with, one of your experience should know better that to confuse and misguide..

Or maybe your be a sale person, as everything seem to be ok, such that a plastic fermenter is also a still ? ?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87371

Mars

[NormandieStill]

The dephleg in question isn't the best design but it's usable.
It can make enough reflux to flood the column. Yeah, after hours of running it at a very low power usage !

How can one call the cooling jacket a dephleg or even a condenser ? it is still a pot still with a fancy cooling jacket..

It's exactly the type of statement that confuses beginner with, one of your experience should know better that to confuse and misguide..

Or maybe your be a sale person, as everything seem to be ok, such that a plastic fermenter is also a still ? ?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87371

Mars

A liebig is a cooling jacket! Take the cooling jacket off and you're going to need a damned long tube to condense your distillate coming off the still. Or are coils the only cooling elements that count? In which case I presume you're running a dimroth as your PC.

The column is actively cooled through the passage of cold water through a cooling element (in this case a jacket). A portion of the condensate makes it past the condenser, the rest trickles back down into the packing. In what way is this not the description of a CM still? I'm not defending the quality of the jacketed condenser, but it's not because you don't rate it, that it stops being a condenser!

[greggn]

How can one call the cooling jacket a dephleg or even a condenser ?

Because it is capable of holding the column in 100% reflux.

[Yummyrum]

How can one call the cooling jacket a dephleg or even a condenser ?

Because it is capable of holding the column in 100% reflux.

At what power ?

Everything has limits . There are two main issues I see with this type of deflag , first , it’s made of stainless , so it will have poor heat transfer and secondly , a 2” is quite a large bore for a short condenser . There would need to be quite low vapour speed ( power) to allow 100% reflux .

[shadylane]

Everything has limits . There are two main issues I see with this type of deflag , first , it’s made of stainless , so it will have poor heat transfer and secondly , a 2” is quite a large bore for a short condenser . There would need to be quite low vapour speed ( power) to allow 100% reflux .

If it were copper, I know of a few tricks to make it work excellent.
I'd drill holes through jacket and inner tube.
Solder solid copper wires in the holes, so they stick out 1.5 inches on the inside of the tube.
Then bend the wires at about a 45 degree downward angle to guide the reflux to the middle of the packing.

[greggn]

How can one call the cooling jacket a dephleg or even a condenser ?

Because it is capable of holding the column in 100% reflux.

At what power ?

So, you're defining a reflux column as one that can maintain 100% reflux only above a certain threshold of input power ? Otherwise, it's a pot still if it can only reflux up to a certain input power ?

[Saltbush Bill]

One thing for sure, these stills are a bad design and shouldn't be bought by anyone, were ever they go they cause people problems and bring on a rash of conflicting ideas and fixes. The other unfortunate fact is that newbs seem to gravitate toward buying them like bees to honey.
Maybe another thread needs to be started warning people away from purchasing these things in the first place.

[amlsml]

Ran again learning some more I think. I put a thermometer into the cooling reservoir for the RC and PC. the PC never got past 77 degrees close to ambient. The RC was in a smaller tub and ran to 145 degrees, the site glass looked like it was still Refluxing and I got more out of the PC the hotter the cooling water became. Would make sense either reduce the amount of cooling water to the RC or let it heat up, the resulting Reflux is lessened and more vapor is gettin to the PC. How long do you optimally run the RC at full reflux before reducing it down? Thanks

[StillerBoy]

The column is actively cooled through the passage of cold water through a cooling element (in this case a jacket). A portion of the condensate makes it past the condenser, the rest trickles back down into the packing. In what way is this not the description of a CM still?

The lack of understanding of how each component of how a CM works is confusing the issue even more for a beginner.. in any reflux column setup, it's not the column itself that needs cooling, but the vapors, and that is done with a piece of equipment that is design to stop the vapor from exiting/passing through the dephleg, and failure to accomplish that then there is lost of performance and efficiency.. and placing some scrubbies between the cooled column area will not provide the refluxing abilities required of it to be a true CM..

Because it is capable of holding the column in 100% reflux.

That the defense for packing scrubbies in the cooled column area.. one would have to have a very small boiler charge and an all day affair in order to collect, if at all possible to control to take off rate, not discounting the ABV quality.. improvement in proper design were made not to slow the process but to improve the process and it's efficiency..

Yeah I understand the OP for having to deal with what he has purchased.. it's not very interesting to be told that an major error was made.. hopefully, next time he will take the time to research, develop understanding of what it is he wants to do, then proceed from there, and that applies not only to purchasing equipment, but also to learn how to use/operate such.. there is always a learning cost to our actions, so by taking some time to evaluate what it is we want to do, the cost of error will be leasen..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

Maybe another thread needs to be started warning people away from purchasing these things in the first place.

The thought and idea make sense.. unfortunately, the daunting part is that most beginner don't take the time to research.. and those that do, really don't quite get what it is that the hobby is all about, as log by the many threads requesting assistance of some kind..

Nothing more confusing than a newbie providing input to a newbie, and the experience one having to undo the input provided..

Mars

[Stonecutter]

I will try and answer some questions. I am using the electric controller sold with my unit by Mile Hi. I had the control set to half way. the boiler section temp was reading 180 degrees. i removed the rings from the 2 foot long 2 inch column and rerolled 2 sections of loosely wound copper mesh that fit loosely inside and easy to blow thru.both of my site glasses have no restriction, they are hollow. ( do have a mesh bottom if adding flavoring but not installed). I added another pump and separate cooling to my Relfux condenser with a valve to lessen the amount of cooling water) I use a 60 gallon trash can with water and ice for cooling both the FC and the PC. I reran the still and waited until i saw vapor reaching the RC. I turned on the RC water and watched as the Vapor Rain in the site glass and back down the column. I let it run like that for 30 minutes then turned down the water to the RC and turned on the water to my PC. I could see the vapor in the upper site glass and began to see a small trickle out of the PC and into the jar, took over 1hour to fill the first jar. The temp in the boiler was 180, the temp on top of the column was 170 . the second jar was also over an hour to fill. I had to shut down due to a power failure and monster storm. Should I raise the boiler temp or shut down the reflux condenser to keep /Users/andy/Desktop/Screen Shot 2022-05-30 at 9.40.42 AM.pnga/Users/andy/Desktop/Screen Shot 2022-05-30 at 9.42.14 AM.png steady flow? Thanks appreciate the help. a product pic of my still and the controller. I also added a second site glass above the RC and before the PC

Nice to hear you had better success. I’ve run a set up similar to yours, however I’ve only ever used one sight glass . After I removed the thermometer the rig seemed to run easier. Also never mind about “half way” on the controller. Strip fast and loose. Keep it low, slow and tight on your spirit runs. Treat the packing like one homogenous entity, not like plates. The theoreticals are better served that way. Stay safe don’t cut corners and you’ll be producing just fine. I’d look for a better condenser though. Those short and little milehi’s can’t hold back much.

[shadylane]

Ran again learning some more I think. I put a thermometer into the cooling reservoir for the RC and PC. the PC never got past 77 degrees close to ambient. The RC was in a smaller tub and ran to 145 degrees, the site glass looked like it was still Refluxing and I got more out of the PC the hotter the cooling water became. Would make sense either reduce the amount of cooling water to the RC or let it heat up, the resulting Reflux is lessened and more vapor is gettin to the PC. How long do you optimally run the RC at full reflux before reducing it down? Thanks

With a CM still the water temp to the RC needs to be fairly constant.
As you have noticed, the water is getting hotter and gradually reducing the RC power.
For now, I'd swap cooling water tubs. Use the big tub for the RC.
Have you thought about adding a fan and radiator to you cooling water system?

Instead of holding the column at 100% reflux for 30 minutes
I run it at 99% and let the forshots slowly drip out.

[shadylane]

in any reflux column setup, it's not the column itself that needs cooling, but the vapors, and that is done with a piece of equipment that is design to stop the vapor from exiting/passing through the dephleg,

What is this piece of equipment that stops vapor from exiting/passing through the dephleg

[The Baker]

A condenser is a cooling (condensing) apparatus, more often than not in the form of a cooling jacket.

Geoff

[Stonecutter]

I have the same setup as you, minus the upper second sight glass. I'll echo Deplorable and say that it sounds like the power is too high. For my setup I have the 120 volt 2 kW heater and when things are balanced I'm barely touching 40% power. Much higher and I get the flooding in the glass like you have. I'm currently using the ceramic raschig rings but I'm researching other packing materials as flooding seems to be common with those.

Also, to my admittedly very inexperienced eye, over seven gallons of wash in an eight gallon still sounds like too much. I've been running no more than five gallons in my eight gallon setup.

I've put a Y connector on the cooling water so that I can adjust the condensers separately. (I'd be interested in feedback from more experienced members as to whether or not that's a good thing to do)

Hell yeah that’s a good thing to do.

[Stonecutter]

I have the same setup as you, minus the upper second sight glass. I'll echo Deplorable and say that it sounds like the power is too high. For my setup I have the 120 volt 2 kW heater and when things are balanced I'm barely touching 40% power. Much higher and I get the flooding in the glass like you have. I'm currently using the ceramic raschig rings but I'm researching other packing materials as flooding seems to be common with those.

Also, to my admittedly very inexperienced eye, over seven gallons of wash in an eight gallon still sounds like too much. I've been running no more than five gallons in my eight gallon setup.

I've put a Y connector on the cooling water so that I can adjust the condensers separately. (I'd be interested in feedback from more experienced members as to whether or not that's a good thing to do)

Hell yeah that’s a good thing to do.

To be more specific. If you can manage the cooling water efficient and consistent enough to run product to reflux condenser then do it. In fact I think it’s been said above. The idea is to keep that reflux water under control so that you can streamline your rig. If that makes drunken cents…

[Yummyrum]

How can one call the cooling jacket a dephleg or even a condenser ?

Because it is capable of holding the column in 100% reflux.

At what power ?

So, you're defining a reflux column as one that can maintain 100% reflux only above a certain threshold of input power ? Otherwise, it's a pot still if it can only reflux up to a certain input power ?

No . I was not defining a reflux column as one that can maintain 100% reflux . I was not defining a reflux column at all .

What I was referring to was the ability of a deflag to knock down 100% . I was agreeing with you that indeed a cooling jacket section can be a bonified Deflag …. But they are not the best tool for the job . They have limits and the power that they can 100% knock down will be a lot lower than say a Shotty or coil in the same length of shell .

To be honest , I don’t think milehi ever intended them to be used as a Nuetral machine . But rather a still that could pump out a high 80-90% at a fast pace . The Jacketed condenser is a deflag and operation as a partial condenser .

[shadylane]

Here's a thought.
A dephlegmator is a partial reflux condenser.
It only needs to knock down 90% of the boiler power.
If it's too big, the cooling water valve adjustment is more difficult.

[shadylane]

I have the same setup as you, minus the upper second sight glass. I'll echo Deplorable and say that it sounds like the power is too high. For my setup I have the 120 volt 2 kW heater and when things are balanced I'm barely touching 40% power. Much higher and I get the flooding in the glass like you have. I'm currently using the ceramic raschig rings but I'm researching other packing materials as flooding seems to be common with those.

This is the screen that milehi uses to hold the packing or botanicals.
Personally, I think the screen needs to be coarser when used for holding packing.
By chance is the one you're using finer and more restrictive than this?

2-inch-Diameter-Gasket-with-Stainless-Steel-Screen.jpg

[Saltbush Bill]

A dephlegmator is a partial reflux condenser.

Right there is the important bit.
A reflux condenser condences everything, a deflegmator does not.

[amlsml]

If you were starting now and didn't have a reflux still what would you buy?

[The Baker]

If you were starting now and didn't have a reflux still what would you buy?

A pot still (which is what I am still using) with modular fittings so I can change it at will to a reflux still (later).

Geoff

[StillerBoy]

As far as I aware, that means with the knowledge I have, haven't spend the time to search what out there, one needs to build an efficient reflux column unit..

There are different unit that can be build, all emd up doing the same thing, which is seperating alcohol from water, some more efficient than others, but a CM, VM , LM or CCVM will do the task.. if you are not mindful what those are, then some time with be required developing understanding of them, then time to researching if they are navigable on the open market..

Mars

[shadylane]

If you were starting now and didn't have a reflux still what would you buy?

I wouldn't buy a still, I'd buy the material to build another one.


Here's what your still needs.
https://stilldragon.com/condensers-babydephleg.html

[Salt Must Flow]

If you were starting now and didn't have a reflux still what would you buy?

If I MUST BUY, I'd buy this setup, but instead of paying big bucks for for SPP I'd buy lava rock for packing.

Any monkey can coil copper tubing filled with salt to make a reflux condenser which would be much more efficient than any stainless steel reflux condenser. Just a few parts and you'll be rocking the highest ABV possible. You'll only be limited by the diameter and height of your column. The diameter is an initial choice, but height can always be added.

[NormandieStill]

Any monkey can coil copper tubing filled with salt to make a reflux condenser which would be much more efficient than any stainless steel reflux condenser. Just a few parts and you'll be rocking the highest ABV possible. You'll only be limited by the diameter and height of your column. The diameter is an initial choice, but the height can always be added.

Apparently I need to get myself a monkey because my first second attempt at coiling an RC is pretty ropey and kinked.

[shadylane]

From what I've seen.
All the reflux stills you can buy are CM with a tube or tubes in a jacket dephleg.

[Salt Must Flow]

Any monkey can coil copper tubing filled with salt to make a reflux condenser which would be much more efficient than any stainless steel reflux condenser. Just a few parts and you'll be rocking the highest ABV possible. You'll only be limited by the diameter and height of your column. The diameter is an initial choice, but the height can always be added.

Apparently I need to get myself a monkey because my first second attempt at coiling an RC is pretty ropey and kinked.

Well I've rolled only two double coils filled with salt. My first was 5/16" several inches long and the second was 1/4" x 24" long and neither had a hint of a kink. Both were properly filled with salt and wrapped around mandrels that were properly sized. I'm not sure what issue you had, but evidently you had issues. I would question what went wrong, how you could have done it better because the method is sound and proven. Without more info it is not possible to troubleshoot.