Home Distiller

Thanks for the link on the clean run. Funny that is exactly what I did to clean mine without reading that one. One difference Is I used oxywash and hot water out front. Now I am Stainless, so my clean is a bit different than a Copper One. Hence me going stainless. Then opting to 'pack' copper in the stack or whatever name is used.

Oxywash is great, it is not Soap. So any residual is not soap. Learned that from brewing and wine making. Leave a bit of soap in a bottle and it never primes, kills the yeast. A smidge of oxy won't and might taste slightly off. Anyhow you get the idea, no soap.

My unit would only run steam by NOT blocking anything off as you described but rather the Homer Simpson move of having the Liebig arm on the wrong place LOL So steamed with 3-1 vinegar, now soaking the element waiting for fountain pump to cool the output and liquefy.

I looked up the alc and water density thing and it said that alc IS less dense. However there could be MANY reasons I am wrong. First thing I always do is doubt myself for blame.

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:12 pm I thought it was alc is lighter and comes off first. Like gasoline is lighter than water. when I refer to lighter it is less dense. So the same volume of two the alc and gas would be lighter than h2o

The VOLATILITY of the fluid determines when it will vaporize from a liquid.

For example, oil is less dense than water, that is, oil will float on top of water (think of the many oil slicks that have resulted from oil leaks in a well, or pipeline). Yet, oil has a much higher boiling point than water, so the water will boil off long before the oil will boil. A cooking oil is an excellent example of this. Splatter a few drop of water into a hot oil bath … but stand back … the water will boil explosively.

In the case of alcohol, indeed it is less dense than water, but it is also more volatile and will therefore boil before the water will boil. But, fluids will boil proportional to the constituency of the volatiles in the solution (see Raoult’s law).

Here’s a good read: When distilling, some fermentation byproducts can include solvents, like acetone or ethyl acetate which have a lower boiling point than alcohol. As a result, they will be concentrated towards the beginning of the distillation (foreshots & heads). Ironically, some of these are not “lighter” considering their density, but they are more volatile (a lower boiling point).

As a new hobbiest, you need to research, read, and understand the physics of the process. It will help you improve your products and processes.
ss

Stillstirrin, Awesome lesson thank you. Dloaded PDF will read and revisit from time to time.

I read it, more like someone asking what time is it and then sending over a watch schematic. LOL

30xs wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:20 am Usually you are only going to take about a 1/4 to 1/3 of your starting volume in a stripping run. Charged at 75% volume (6 gallons) even at 10% wash that is .6 gallon at 100%. Even if you strip down to a total collected ABV of 25% that would be 2.4 gallon leaving 3.4 in the pot. If you stripped to 33% total ABV it would be 1.8 gallon collected leaving 4.2 gallon in the pot.

Ferments at a lower starting ABV will be even less volume taken from the boiler. Worst case scenario you have to start closer to 6.5 gallon starting volume in the boiler and a slower starting speed on the strips to avoid puking, which isn’t really a major issue in a stripping run.

This is good info. Thanks

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:45 pm

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:50 pm Strip it till I get in a spot where I know I am getting close. No.. you strip until you reach the ABV possible to extract before you stop, and that is somewhere between 40 - 25% overall ABV, determine by whatever it is you made..
On avg my wort/wash is usually 1095 start and goes to 1000 on end. ( the total volume is what is important, the SG range only indicate what potential ABV possible..) A little strong so I figure to cut it with H2o to compensate for that element height and give a little cushion. I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

Before attempting to strip a run, read more as you seem to have misunderstood what was stated about the element level.. the element level is just an indicator.. you need to make a ferment that will give you the alcohol and still have ample liquid left that covers the element.. so if you made just a 5 gal, that will probably not be enough, and 7 gal would be preferred until you have done a few runs and develop info as to what amount is safe..

Mars

Yes after re reading all posts, Thank you

Bubbles: Some people just take a little longer to develop understanding.. the hobby requires much more in understanding than what it first appears to looks like, but your getting there.. it seems like you want to do great right now and trying to bypass learning, and in the process put to much stress on yourself.. step back/stop, learn how to put your still together properly, learn what a pot still is, what it can do, and how it should be operated properly, before moving further, and equally as important, never stop researching to develop further understanding of the hobby, as it is never ending..

Mars

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:21 am
So at shut down I was reading here, and have seen implosions. Sickening to see or read about. So I thought to ask, when I shut it down. Should I wait for my activity to simmer for a few minutes and then crack open that fill hole to avoid a suction dilemma?

A pot still should always be open to the atmosphere through the condenser. your's appears to be correct.

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:58 pm Bubbles: Some people just take a little longer to develop understanding.. the hobby requires much more in understanding than what it first appears to looks like, but your getting there.. it seems like you want to do great right now and trying to bypass learning, and in the process put to much stress on yourself.. step back/stop, learn how to put your still together properly, learn what a pot still is, what it can do, and how it should be operated properly, before moving further, and equally as important, never stop researching to develop further understanding of the hobby, as it is never ending..

Mars

Laughable and left handed for sure. Bypass learning, kinda makes asking questions seem contrary. Thanks for the input. This is a new type of still. I have never used an open element inside where there are fumes that are very flammable. So yeah I attached the arm wrong on my first assembly, that should negate any thing I've learned in the last 2 years of using an air still, recipes, and cooperage. I am sure after my first run, coupled with a few tips of how boiling water is akin to being airborne. I do understand that when you strip you strip till you got all you can. The Caveat being that NOT IF it is leaving the Element in the open air.
Thanks about telling me I need to know how to put the Still together correctly. Man that makes sense. Oh wait, I added a pic prior, did you see that?
Now I have been working on Kegging beer underwater to be void of all O2 however, the real problem is getting my swimming pool full of distilled water void of O2. . .

cob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:08 pm

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:21 am
So at shut down I was reading here, and have seen implosions. Sickening to see or read about. So I thought to ask, when I shut it down. Should I wait for my activity to simmer for a few minutes and then crack open that fill hole to avoid a suction dilemma?

A pot still should always be open to the atmosphere through the condenser. your's appears to be correct.

Thanks new still, I have been reading around here and wondered, if there was a thing I should know. I figured if it cools slow it should be fine. As does my sealed pressure cooker and I let cool from 15lbs to Zero overnight.
Maybe if I hosed it down with cold water it could be dented. . .

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:21 pm Laughable and left handed for sure. Bypass learning, kinda makes asking questions seem contrary. Thanks for the input. This is a new type of still. I have never used an open element inside where there are fumes that are very flammable. So yeah I attached the arm wrong on my first assembly, that should negate any thing I've learned in the last 2 years of using an air still, recipes, and cooperage.

Running an air still is a kin to using a water kettle.. and comparing a still operating to a pressure cooker..

Well.. Some people can be help, others, who knows..

Enjoy the journey

Mars

You do know they DO make Pot Stills out of pressure cookers? You prob take it all literal and did not catch the example in regards to a slow cool down. ahh never mind.

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:59 am You do know they DO make Pot Stills out of pressure cookers? You prob take it all literal and did not catch the example in regards to a slow cool down. ahh never mind.

You don't seem to understand how pressure actually works. When you put on your pressure cooker, you are heating up the contents which cause them to expand (and in the case of water turning to steam... lots) which increases the pressure inside the cooker. The seals ensure that nothing escapes. When you stop heating and allow it to cool, the contents return to their original temperature and original volume.

When you use a still with a thumper (for example) the excess volume generated by heating the contents escapes through the thumper which then acts as an airlock (allowing vapour out, but nothing in). When the boiler cools down the remaining volume is less than was present at the start which means that a vacuum is created. This will suck the contents of the thumper back into the still, but if the path is blocked (by mash present in the thumper for example) then the vacuum will pull in the walls of the boiler (OK. Technically the outside air will push in the walls of the boiler) until it reaches equilibrium.

The speed at which it cools down is completely irrelevant. If you want to see this in action, pour hot water into a plastic soda bottle until it is about a quarter full. Put the lid on and shake it (this will heat the air trapped in the bottle). Now open the lid until the air hisses out and close it again. Leave it to cool (or put it in the fridge). The bottle will implode. This will happen regardless of how fast it's cooled.

NormandieStill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 am

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:59 am You do know they DO make Pot Stills out of pressure cookers? You prob take it all literal and did not catch the example in regards to a slow cool down. ahh never mind.

You don't seem to understand how pressure actually works. When you put on your pressure cooker, you are heating up the contents which cause them to expand (and in the case of water turning to steam... lots) which increases the pressure inside the cooker. The seals ensure that nothing escapes. When you stop heating and allow it to cool, the contents return to their original temperature and original volume.

Also, keep in mind that water under pressure has a higher boiling point too. So as the pressure increases due to production of steam, the temperature of the water will also increase. For example, steam (and water) at 15psi boils at 250*F. So, the food inside a pressure cooker will cook at a higher temperature, while the increased pressure breaks down the cell walls of the organic material inside.

And as the temperature and pressure increases inside a cooker, the (contained) energy increases exponentially (with the square of the temperature). So, without a relief valve, a pressure cooker becomes a BOMB. And that’s with water!

Just imagine how dangerous it would become if the liquid inside was alcohol. You may trick yourself into believing the pressure cooker is safe, but it isn’t. The alcohol vapor at elevated temperatures and under pressure can easily explode with a spark (like simple friction can produce) when exposed to air/oxygen. So, a leak (or vent release) is a blowtorch or explosive device:
ssssssssssss—>BOOM!

This is why pressure cookers are NOT RECOMMENDED on this forum: dangerous in the hands of a novice.
ss

NormandieStill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 am

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:59 am You do know they DO make Pot Stills out of pressure cookers? You prob take it all literal and did not catch the example in regards to a slow cool down. ahh never mind.

You don't seem to understand how pressure actually works. When you put on your pressure cooker, you are heating up the contents which cause them to expand (and in the case of water turning to steam... lots) which increases the pressure inside the cooker. The seals ensure that nothing escapes. When you stop heating and allow it to cool, the contents return to their original temperature and original volume.

When you use a still with a thumper (for example) the excess volume generated by heating the contents escapes through the thumper which then acts as an airlock (allowing vapour out, but nothing in). When the boiler cools down the remaining volume is less than was present at the start which means that a vacuum is created. This will suck the contents of the thumper back into the still, but if the path is blocked (by mash present in the thumper for example) then the vacuum will pull in the walls of the boiler (OK. Technically the outside air will push in the walls of the boiler) until it reaches equilibrium.

The speed at which it cools down is completely irrelevant. If you want to see this in action, pour hot water into a plastic soda bottle until it is about a quarter full. Put the lid on and shake it (this will heat the air trapped in the bottle). Now open the lid until the air hisses out and close it again. Leave it to cool (or put it in the fridge). The bottle will implode. This will happen regardless of how fast it's cooled.

So the caveat is the Thumper on a cool down, creating a vacuum. I am not using a Thumper via the pics I posted. No wonder we are talking two different languages of being told I do not understand how stills work and the actual still I am using. I asked about implosion or anything I should do or know about on a cool down, and got the answer of, No prob with a Pot still like you are using. PERHAPS ADDING THIS - If you were using a Thumper that can cause a vaccum and that would be a problem if you do not allow for the contraction. SO NOW I know that if I were to ever add a Thumper to be aware of that vacuum when it does go to cool. In all fairness I am not showing a pic with a Thumper to have an expanded answer like that.

elbono wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:26 am Water vapor is heavier that alcohol vapor. They'll be very different.

There were a couple of responses that didn't make things perfectly clear to me. The question stuck in my mind and google didn't help. I finally found the answer right here with sources.

According to the physical properties page

____________________ Ethanol Water
Liquid density g/mL 0.789 1.000 Perry 3.2
Vapour density @ 90C g/mL 0.0015 0.001 PV=nRT

So liquid water is more dense than liquid ethanol and vapor is the opposite.

elbono wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:49 pm
I also think there isn't a definite relationship between liquid density and vapor density. A more dense liquid can have a less dense vapor when compared to another liquid. Is this correct?

At least I was right about that as well as they definitely act very differently.

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:12 am

NormandieStill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 am

Bubbles2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:59 am You do know they DO make Pot Stills out of pressure cookers? You prob take it all literal and did not catch the example in regards to a slow cool down. ahh never mind.

You don't seem to understand how pressure actually works. When you put on your pressure cooker, you are heating up the contents which cause them to expand (and in the case of water turning to steam... lots) which increases the pressure inside the cooker. The seals ensure that nothing escapes. When you stop heating and allow it to cool, the contents return to their original temperature and original volume.

When you use a still with a thumper (for example) the excess volume generated by heating the contents escapes through the thumper which then acts as an airlock (allowing vapour out, but nothing in). When the boiler cools down the remaining volume is less than was present at the start which means that a vacuum is created. This will suck the contents of the thumper back into the still, but if the path is blocked (by mash present in the thumper for example) then the vacuum will pull in the walls of the boiler (OK. Technically the outside air will push in the walls of the boiler) until it reaches equilibrium.

The speed at which it cools down is completely irrelevant. If you want to see this in action, pour hot water into a plastic soda bottle until it is about a quarter full. Put the lid on and shake it (this will heat the air trapped in the bottle). Now open the lid until the air hisses out and close it again. Leave it to cool (or put it in the fridge). The bottle will implode. This will happen regardless of how fast it's cooled.

So the caveat is the Thumper on a cool down, creating a vacuum. I am not using a Thumper via the pics I posted. No wonder we are talking two different languages of being told I do not understand how stills work and the actual still I am using. I asked about implosion or anything I should do or know about on a cool down, and got the answer of, No prob with a Pot still like you are using. PERHAPS ADDING THIS - If you were using a Thumper that can cause a vaccum and that would be a problem if you do not allow for the contraction. SO NOW I know that if I were to ever add a Thumper to be aware of that vacuum when it does go to cool. In all fairness I am not showing a pic with a Thumper to have an expanded answer like that.

First off. No the caveat is NOT the thumper. The caveat would be an obstruction, any obstruction. If you READ through the forum I know of at least one that was caused by someone using some unapproved tubing to extend their takeoff, which you at least acknowledged as a bad thing. The tubing was below liquid level. Silicone sucks flat easily as the boiler was cooling and it was sucking fluid. That created a SEAL that is required for vacuum. Doesn’t matter if it cools fast or slow. If there’s going to be a vacuum created it will be the same vacuum force, just a different length of time to get there. Take a pot of boiling water and set it in an ice bath, without a lid. Does it implode? Why not? Simple. There’s no sealed lid to create a vacuum, common sense. Add a thumper full of liquid and leave it after shut down and what happens? 99.9% of the time it’s going to suck the fluid from the thumper back to the boiler with no issues, unless boiler walls were too thin to sustain the vacuum of lifting the liquid. Add grains or fruit to the thumper and let it clog the pipe that the chance of failure increases significantly, even with a stronger walled boiler.

Secondly. You posted straight out the gate with a photo of a still with no product condenser. That says two things. One you don’t understand the dynamics of the distillation process and two that you were too lazy to search online to even see what the assembled unit should look like. You also didn’t question why there was nothing to stop the steam from exiting the output as liquid. You should be able to see the concerns members had/have about your willingness to learn by searching for answers to simple questions. Safety is number one here, and the archives of knowledge are free and vast, make use of them.

Thirdly. You came in asking a question, and it was answered, but on page two you still don’t have an understanding and have the same concerns. Yet when the lack of willingness to learn came up you were quick to get snarky and reply half cocked. Humility will get you much more help than replying with an “I know” mentality.

Now that I’ve colored the picture as best I can I’ll put my crayons away and go back to quietly licking my window in the corner.