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Rusty Ole Bucket wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 10:53 am

Biker24a69 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2024 7:01 pm Now ya making me look for panela here in st louis
Gotta love this thread

Yep, I've read this whole thread thinking, I'm gonna try this next. I love rum, I found a spot today that has a great supply of panela and even better tacos. They have it for $2/lbs after tax. I got 12 pounds for an 8 gallon run. I'm looking forward to trying something other than white sugar. I'm not sure yet if I'm going to stick to panela only or find a little molasses to add in with it.

Rusty

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Simple Panela rum is very light on flavor which is why I add a little molasses. Especially until you get some dunder to add in the next generation. Be sure to come back and tell us what you do and how it turns out for you! Good luck

Dougmatt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:50 pm Simple Panela rum is very light on flavor which is why I add a little molasses. Especially until you get some dunder to add in the next generation. Be sure to come back and tell us what you do and how it turns out for you! Good luck

I did find 4 gallons of molasses yesterday so I think I'm going to try 8 pounds of panela, 7 gallons of water, one gallon of molasses per batch and do 4 batches of low wines then a spirit run with the result. I'll definitely check back in, I'm going get the ferment started tomorrow, I'll let you guys know the starting numbers.

Rusty

Best rum i ever did was

1 gal blackstrap
4 lbs panella
6 gal water
3 gal dunder

This ends up being 60% blackstrap 40% panella by sugar weight

I'm definitely going to save my dunder and use it on all 3 batches after I run this first one. A friend gave me his brew set up that includes a 3 gallon corney keg, the plan is to use that for my dunder week to week.

Rusty

Man, the hydrometer about popped out of that stuff when I dropped it in. I measured at 90.6°, adjusting for that, I was at 1.116 SG. I'll measure again when it's dry and see where it lands.

I used the recipe that I mentioned above.

7gal water
8lbs panela
1gal blackstrap molasses
1/4tsp Epsom salts
8tbsp Red Star DAY


Y'all weren't wrong, it smelled amazing, heating up and this morning fermenting. I can't wait to run it.

Rusty

Should finish out around 1.045-1.055... depending on the gravity of your dunder and blackstrap.

All the stacking unfermentables is the reason for the high gravity wash... otherwise you won't have enough sugar in the pot to make the run worth it.

Bolverk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 11:04 am Should finish out around 1.045-1.055... depending on the gravity of your dunder and blackstrap.

All the stacking unfermentables is the reason for the high gravity wash... otherwise you won't have enough sugar in the pot to make the run worth it.

Thanks, that makes sense.

I'm going to stick to the same recipe for all four runs, with the exception of substituting 3 gallons of dunder for 3 gallons of water going forward.

Rusty

Youre getting into the deep end of the pool now

Get a pH meter and order some lye (caustic soda) and some sulfuric acid. When you start playing with high amounts of dunder, you're going to need to get real comfortable establishing a buffer at the beginning of your ferments.

Start by bringing the pH up to 6.8 with the lye and bring it back down 5.8 with the sulfuric. Your ferment should finish at about 5.2. Yes you can use lime (slacked lime, pickling lime, CaO) but it will take a lot of it. Same with citric acid or other weak acids. But the stronger base/acid work better with less.

Got to say it man... DON'T FUCK AROUND! USE PPE! this shit can be very dangerous if youre not comfortable handling them.

Oh! Never add a base to an acid! Always acid to a base!

Bolverk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 2:05 pmGot to say it man... DON'T FUCK AROUND! USE PPE! this shit can be very dangerous if youre not comfortable handling them.

Yeah, citric acid and pickling lime is avaible at Walmart and won't melt my skin, probably gonna stick to stuff like that honestly, no matter what amount I need. I did check the PH of my wash and it was at 5.5ph when it went into the fermenter.

What's the reason for bringing it way up then back down?

Rusty

It will stabilize your wash against pH changes.

This can explain faster then me typing it out lol

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution

Bolverk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:34 pm It will stabilize your wash against pH changes.

This can explain faster then me typing it out lol

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution

OK, so that was very informative, thanks for the link. Let me see if I understand;

The dunder has a very low ph, you add a very high ph substance to counteract that, then enough acid to buffer back to 5ish. Right?

Does it matter if you're using a fresh dunder or infected in the wash? I think I'm gonna not leave the dunder open for this set of runs, I'm just gonna set up the next ferment that same day or next morning. I don't think I'm ready to be a pit boss. I feel like there's more I need to understand/learn before I fall into a dunder pit.

I mainly want to do something other than white sugar, but don't feel like I'm ready for mashing grains.

Rusty

That's correct

Yes and no, it depends on the infection in the muck. If it's lactobacillus, then the buffer is more important because it will crash your pH even more so.

Lol, I agree with that. Playing with secondary infections/fermentions is a pretty deep rabbit hole. Get really good at rum with just dunder first, learn how to actually control your pH. Then, when you've got a solid understanding, branch out.

Google "Boston Apothecary Arroyo"... there is a wealth of knowledge on Stephen's site.

In my opinion your making life hard for your self ROB, much easier to just stick to molasses and lower backset amounts.
You will still make a very tasty Rum.
Sometimes its good to take the easy path first , then with some experience up your sleeve get into the really involved stuff.

I'd second what SBB is saying about lower amounts of dunder. Stick to 10%ish and you shouldn't need mutch if anything to correct your pH.

Btw... the batch you mentioned above.... get some crushed oyster shells or white marble chunks to hang in that batch, they will help main a good pH. Its much easier to keep a good pH than it is to fix a crashed one.

PH works on a log10 scale, you started with a pH of 5.5, well 4.5 is 10x more acidic, and when it gets down to 3.5 it will be 100x more acidic.

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 2:05 am In my opinion your making life hard for your self ROB, much easier to just stick to molasses and lower backset amounts.
You will still make a very tasty Rum.
Sometimes its good to take the easy path first , then with some experience up your sleeve get into the really involved stuff.

Bolverk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 2:48 am I'd second what SBB is saying about lower amounts of dunder. Stick to 10%ish and you shouldn't need mutch if anything to correct your pH.

Btw... the batch you mentioned above.... get some crushed oyster shells or white marble chunks to hang in that batch, they will help main a good pH. Its much easier to keep a good pH than it is to fix a crashed one.

PH works on a log10 scale, you started with a pH of 5.5, well 4.5 is 10x more acidic, and when it gets down to 3.5 it will be 100x more acidic.

Thanks for the advice, guys, I'm going to take it. I'll modify the backset added to about 3/4s of a gallon and bring the water back up to correct the volume.

I did a little research on using marble instead of shells and I think I'm going to give that a try. Y'all let me know what you think about this plan:

I work for a stone countertop company, so there are chunks of white marble everywhere. We dump a hundred pounds a day as drop waste. (It doesn't go in a landfill, it's recycled by a local concrete company, along with all our production solids.) My wash is going to get some really expensive buffer material I think, I have a pure white marble called White Rhino, based on a Google search it should do the trick nicely. The plan is to crush some up and suspend a couple of pounds of it in my wash in a mesh bag. I just talked to our waterjet guy; I'll have a nice chunk to take home with me today.

I think I just named this batch of rum. How does White Rhino Rum sound.

Rusty

Yup that'll work

Here's a good thread on the use of marble

viewtopic.php?p=7762367&hilit=Marble+chunks#p7762367

Cool name Rusty, I like it, that can be your house white rum.

Then, make more flavourful rum with all molasses, age some on used Bourbon Oak and call it Golden Rhino, and age some even more with heavy charr and a drop of Molasses added, and call it Black Rhino!

You don't even need to hang the marble in chunks, you could just put it in the bottom leaning against the wall of the fermenter and lift it out when done.

MooseMan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 5:47 am Cool name Rusty, I like it, that can be your house white rum.

Then, make more flavourful rum with all molasses, age some on used Bourbon Oak and call it Golden Rhino, and age some even more with heavy charr and a drop of Molasses added, and call it Black Rhino!

You don't even need to hang the marble in chunks, you could just put it in the bottom leaning against the wall of the fermenter and lift it out when done.

I like it Mooseman! I think I might have to try and make all of those. They'd look cool sitting next to each other, gradually darker rum in each bottle.

I'll have to see what I get off the waterjet this afternoon, I'm also using conical fermenters right now so I'll just have to see how I can best fit it in.

Rusty

Another good thing to do that's easy is just to leave the ferment sit for a while. The yeast will autolyze all the fatty acids out of their cells, those amino acids are precursors to ester formation.

Bolverk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 7:26 am Another good thing to do that's easy is just to leave the ferment sit for a while. The yeast will autolyze all the fatty acids out of their cells, those amino acids are precursors to ester formation.

Ok, I can do that. I can only run on weekends because of work, so I have to let my ferments sit for a week or so to wait for my next opportunity to set up and run. So far everything has rested about a week after the ferment stops. Using two fermenters, I'm on a two-week cycle right now, all three washes so far have fermented to stopped then rest till the next Thursday or Friday, rack once or twice and run on the weekend. That allows me to run a batch every weekend.

Rusty

Snagged this off the water jet just now. This should work right?
I grabbed about 10lbs of scrap today but I pretty much have an endless supply if this will do the trick.

Rusty

Yeah that will do very nicely!

Assuming it is pure marble of course and not any kind of conglomerate material.

Just an FYI, a lot of people (Me included) who do molasses only or very high molasses rum, don't use any kind of buffer in the ferments, as the molasses does a good job of that by itself.

MooseMan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 12:08 pm Yeah that will do very nicely!

Assuming it is pure marble of course and not any kind of conglomerate material.

Just an FYI, a lot of people (Me included) who do molasses only or very high molasses rum, don't use any kind of buffer in the ferments, as the molasses does a good job of that by itself.

Yes Sir, its solid marble, it comes to us straight from the quarry in Namibia where it's cut. We also sell the conglomerate material you're talking about; in the industry it's called "quartz". They take ground up marble, other minerals and stone and mix it with acrylic resins that are then made into slab form and cured. (edited to correct the origin country)

Since I found a good source for unsulfured blackstrap food grade molasses, I'm thinking about doing a set of those runs & spirit run next. At least I think I found a good source; I have to buy it in a 4-gallon case but it's only $14 per gallon that way, a little over $60 for the case with tax. That's reasonable for food grade, right? TSC feed molasses is $11 a gallon here so I thought the food grade would have been more, but I'm buying it through a food wholesaler here in town, I guess I'm not taking the retail hit.

Rusty

If you stick with the percentages in this thread, no buffer is needed. It’s only when you go way too high with panela, start adding acids and / or large quantities of dunder (or just have water issues) do you risk a ph crash. My preference is to just leave them out, but others take the position of “it won’t hurt”. I’m not sure if that’s true given the acidity is what aids in esterification.

Regardless sounds like you are off to a good start!

Dougmatt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:06 pm If you stick with the percentages in this thread, no buffer is needed. It’s only when you go way too high with panela, start adding acids and / or large quantities of dunder (or just have water issues) do you risk a ph crash. My preference is to just leave them out, but others take the position of “it won’t hurt”. I’m not sure if that’s true given the acidity is what aids in esterification.

Regardless sounds like you are off to a good start!

Well, I haven't dropped any in yet, I wanted to make sure there was no stabilizer adhesive left on it and I didn't have time to grind it down last night. I also thought I should probably sterilize it before I use it just to be safe.

I checked the ph of my wash last night and it's still over 5 so I may just ride it out on this one. I'll check it again tonight and see where I'm at.

Did I end up high with my panela ratio (1lbs panela:7/8gal water:1pt molasses)? That's pretty close to the first ratio on the thread, right?

Rusty

Rusty Ole Bucket wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 1:05 pm
Did I end up high with my panela ratio (1lbs panela:7/8gal water:1pt molasses)? That's pretty close to the first ratio on the thread, right?

Rusty

Ratios are good.

Dougmatt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2024 2:46 pm Ratios are good.

Thanks for the confirmation Dougmatt!

I'm going to run my first batch tomorrow night, I racked it yesterday, and plan to do it one more time before I put it in the boiler tomorrow evening, probably tonight. It's so easy with the conicals, there's no reason not to clear it a bit more, I figure two should do it though. It smells great, like molasses cookie wine, it's about the color of Guiness beer. I dropped another batch last weekend that's starting to slow down and will be ready for next week. I'm going at lunch to get the panela I need to finish two more stripping runs then I'll be ready for the spirit run. I can't wait, to taste the low wines tomorrow night.

I also picked up a proofing hydrometer so I can get an educated guess as to what proof is coming off. I'll report back with all the info and let y'all know how it comes out, after the run this weekend.

Rusty

Man, that stuff is amazing tasting in the low wines, a LOT of the molasses aroma comes through, and it tastes just like the panela juice. I ran it nice and slow even though it was a stripping run, it took me about 7 hours total from warm up to, "damn, I'm tired, that's enough I'm going to bed." Here are the numbers:

Starting gravity was 1.116
Final gravity was 1.012
1.116 - 1.012 = .104 x 131 = 13.624% potential
It was an 8gal wash so it should have yielded roughly 1.08gal
(Using a water calibrated proofing hydrometer)
Jar #1 = 145 proof (first jar kept, technically jar #2)
Jar #6 = 110 proof
Jar #8 = 100 proof
Jar #10 = 70 proof
Jar #12 = 50 proof
Jar #16 = 20 proof

I caught 16 pints with a small amount of head room in each jar and covered them with coffee filters. Per my usual, I tossed the whole first pint, I was checking proof as I went. I might keep a hearts pint from each of the 4 low wines run of this stuff just to see how it ages since it tastes so good. I put a new panela wash together yesterday afternoon and pitched yeast this morning, that's number 3. I used my original recipe and didn't add any backset, I figured I wanted to see this through before I added in another variable. I want to play with backset and dunder at some point since I love rum, but that's a bit down the road. The starting gravity for #2 was 1.113 and #3 was 1.114.

Rusty

Morning y'all, just finished up panela run #3, caught 12 quart jars before I shut it down. Here are the stats for #2. I've been muling it over in my head what to charge the thumper with, etc. for the panela spirit run.

Option #1: strip wash #4, double everything through distilled water in the thumper.
Option #2: I have 8 gallons of wash left to strip as of today (#4), low wines, 6 gallons of wash in the pot, 2 gallons of wash in the thumper, call it done. (Probably the most raw flavor)
Option #3: Save 3 gallons of backset from today's run, strip wash #4, double low wines through the backset in the thumper.
Option #4: Aw hell, the combos are endless! You get the idea right?

I've given it a lot of thought as you can see...

I'm going with option #1, as much as I'd like to get creative, I am reminding myself I'm still a novice. That panela spirit run will be run 12 for me, 2nd spirit run, ever. I want to double distill it, then cut it with nothing in the way, just the final product.

I'm going to strip #4 and do a spirit run next weekend so I have enough time to play around a little with flavoring the finished product before my vacation week late in December. I will have that and the Shady's Sugar Shine spirit run I did yesterday for the holidays.

Should be a good time!

Side note: Bees and yellow jackets seem to only show up DEEP into the runs.

Side note #2: With a couple of gallons of good sippin' stuff around, I'm gonna refine my set up and processes. I feel like with 12 runs under my belt I'll have a better understanding of my equipment so here comes Horny Goat 2.0.

Rusty

If I'm not doing a high ester run I like stripping a full boiler full so on the next run and can do new beer in the kettle and low wines in the thumper.