Irish style "single pot" mash

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Well-well-well, to hell with the charts here for now as the 3 runs are done.

Got 2 portions. The first one is 85% AbV and it makes 2/3 of my hearts. The second (1/3) portion is somewhat 80% AbV.

The problem of the 1st portion: too neutral. The problem of the 2nd: too astringent. Not sure if I wanna join them together. Thinking so far.

Any "advice dogs" in this chat room?

[8Ball]

Well-well-well, to hell with the charts here for now as the 3 runs are done.

Got 2 portions. The first one is 85% AbV and it makes 2/3 of my hearts. The second (1/3) portion is somewhat 80% AbV.

The problem of the 1st portion: too neutral. The problem of the 2nd: too astringent. Not sure if I wanna join them together. Thinking so far.

Any "advice dogs" in this chat room?

You have received plenty of great advice and I think that you chose to ignore it all. Now you have “problems.” Go figure.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

You have received plenty of great advice and I think that you chose to ignore it all. Now you have “problems.” Go figure.

Guyz sed mey to wait for a week. I did so. Both ferment buckets went out dry. Guys were right, thank y'all.

One thing is to ignore. Another is to fail with understanding it all:

No. The very first run (“at the start of the project”), you obviously do not have the feints yet, so you do a strip and spirit only. Keep those first hearts. On all subsequent runs, you will have low wines and FEINTS for your spirit charges.

It is the feints that wind up being triple distilled in the manner described previously. The first time during the strip. The second time during the spirit runs. The third time (“triple”) during the next spirit.

Each spirit run with wide heads & tails cuts produces a lot of good feints and a very nice narrow hearts cut. When you add the feints back into the next spirit you are doing a form triple distillation. By keeping the amount of feints included in your boiler charge to 40% of the total charge, you are creating a desired flavor profile.

Meanwhile, my runs schemes are OK as is. My exact mash was astringent for the pot still, that's it. All those "toasted" grains are turned out overtoasted now. I won't re-run it at the 5-plates manner, nah. The question is what to do with 2 parts of them broken hearts.

Gonna proof down (to 40% by vol.) 3 small samples. The 1st part and the 2nd separately and (#3) the blend of 1st & 2nd at 2:1 plus water. Resting, sniffing, tasting. Being not in a hurry.

Do I know it all myself? I do. Any other smart and clever reasoning, my dear Sirs?

[NZChris]

How did you run it to lose all that flavor?

There would have been plenty of flavor in the wash, there should have been plenty in the Low Wines and plenty in the High Wines.

How did you choose your heart cut?

[jonnys_spirit]

lol!

I enjoy visiting our local irish restaurant often and it's not this complicated with all the diagrams...

For stillin whiskey I recycle a feints cut and some beer top-up along with low wines from a strip run. The feints get stored in a 3 gallon carboy along with some charred oak fingers - might be 6-9 months between spirit runs. After a few generations of feints I really appreciate adding it back in for each spirit run and normally cut out fores and early heads. I guess I need to get an all-malt whisky going at some point and do similar.

Cheers!
-jonny

[VLAGAVULVIN]

How did you run it to lose all that flavor?

There would have been plenty of flavor in the wash, there should have been plenty in the Low Wines and plenty in the High Wines.

There have been lotsa flavor in the wash. And the low wines (after stripping) were very oily, flavory and promising. Not pungent.

Flavor. It's not "totally lost". It's predictably absent in the first part of the run (as its AbV is higher than "normal" for a triple pot still manner). The flavors are mostly in the second part. But during the second run I imagined some astringency of "high wines". And therefore, had split the third run's hearts in two. Maybe, I have no problem at all. And all I need is to join them. Being next times not so picky and distrustful during the 2nd run, lol.

How did you choose your heart cut?

2nd run: 3% of the total pot's voume cut off as fores. And did not use them anymore. The rest was run to high wines (no tails cut in the end). Got about 60-65% AvB high wines.

3rd run (made no dilution / run starting with those 60-65% high wines): 2% discarded as "foreshots", then got 3% as heads (will use them in the next time loads). Here I got started to get hearts. Finished at ~75% from the sprout. And the last 1/3 was "overspiced". It's definitely not fusels. It's all about my roasted/toasted barley, corn and oat. Maybe, chocolate malt, too. The missus said it's OK for both her nose and her tongue. But it's not what I was planning to get...

[VLAGAVULVIN]

For stillin whiskey I recycle a feints cut and some beer top-up along with low wines from a strip run.

Jesse goes a bit Midleton:



He mashed 50% barley malt + 45% "white" barley flakes + 5 "white" oat flakes. White = not toasted, I mean.

With Jesse's mash, I would get the result using my (way easier) 3 runs. What's more: there's the dilution to below 40% AbV before his 3rd run. That would make my toasty-roasty thangs even more (and earlier) boring.

And my current version of events is that Mr. VLAG overdid it with his mash bill:

Inside and on the bottom of the trays, it all is even more brown.

[NZChris]

"2nd run: 3% of the total pot's volume cut off as fores. And did not use them anymore."

That might have been a mistake. Your usual foreshot taken from the stripping runs may have been enough. AFAIK, commercial Irish whisky distillers don't remove a foreshot/heads from the 2nd run

Look for graphs of congeners coming over during distillation. All parts of a distillation contain the same congeners, some start high and finish low, some start low and finish high, so heads hearts and tails all contain the same congeners and our job is to pick out a heart cut with the ratios of congeners that suit our preferences.

"Got about 60-65% AvB high wines".

That is much higher than the commercials run to, so is likely to have left good flavor and alcohol in the boiler.

When you are doing cuts from any type of product that is new to you, hearts should be chosen by sampling blends from all of the jars, not from a selected few based on tasting individual jars.

If you left your jars to air for more than a few hours, the Angels will have snorted more than their fair share of your esters. That trick is good for making neutral, or for when your drinks cabinet is empty and you need something in a hurry.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

NZChris, thanks for your comments

Look for graphs of congeners coming over during distillation. All parts of a distillation contain the same congeners, some start high and finish low, some start low and finish high, so heads hearts and tails all contain the same congeners and our job is to pick out a heart cut with the ratios of congeners that suit our preferences.

Correct. With no reflux, the fusels tryna go out in the beginning. If the pot has low AbV, of course. I don't like higher alcohols. So, in my preferences is letting them go twice (both 1st & 2nd runs). Of course, I could take "wider" fores during the stripping run. But it's the way to get all my final yield lost, innit? Or shall I add them to my next ferment so to strip them again?

"Got about 60-65% AvB high wines".

That is much higher than the commercials to run so is likely to have left good flavor and alcohol in the boiler.

Yes... my goal here is to cut off the fatty acids as early as possible. On the contrary, if I need "bread loaf smells" in my hearts I just make a simple "Scottish" double distillation.

This time... Alas, I cut them acids off, but those acrid (phenols??) are still inside. Five plates would clean'em up. But not this time. If my "latter hearts" won't get better after dilution & rest then they will just become the strong feints for some future reasons.

When you are doing cuts from any type of product that is new to you, hearts should be chosen by sampling blends from all of the jars, not from a selected few based on tasting individual jars.

Your truth Aim first, then shoot.

If you left your jars to air for more than a few hours, the Angels will have snorted more than their fair share of your esters. That trick is good for making neutral.

Jars, jars, jars... I need to retire first

[8Ball]

You have received plenty of great advice and I think that you chose to ignore it all. Now you have “problems.” Go figure.

One thing is to ignore. Another is to fail with understanding it all:
… Do I know it all myself? I do. Any other smart and clever reasoning, my dear Sirs?

Funny.

[NZChris]

I don't like higher alcohols either, on their own, but they are part of the flavor profile of whisky, so remove too much and your whisky may be bland and disappointing, leave too much in and it's undrinkable. Treat them like salt in your dinner and try to get the balance how you like it.

Jars, jars, jars.... The middle of the run is always going to make the heart cut, so my 20 jars is hypothetical. In practice, the bland middle distillate goes into demijohns untasted and I only use jars in the areas where the cuts will be made.

[SaltyStaves]

Midelton end up with a heart cut around 85% ABV after three runs through the pot stills. Its pretty obvious their third charge isn't below 40% ABV.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Funny.

Man, don't be offended. I really would take your kind advice on distillations. But I did not understand it in full. Even after asking and re-asking time and again. Maybe my English is poor. Or I'm just a dolt (that's quite possible, too). Maybe, it's not too late to revert to the explanations.

Folks offered me plenty schemes here, of which half are complete garbage. Any technology implies a justification. Which appears as a result of analysis and discussion. Nothing is dogma. Large distilleries may have their own reasons for sorta wee-witchie sophistication. For us here, it is not necessary to climb onto the roof of a ten-story building every time we just want to wee. [actually, this should be funny]

I don't like higher alcohols either, on their own, but they are part of the flavor profile of whisky, so remove too much and your whisky may be bland and disappointing, leave too much in and it's undrinkable.

Agreed. Lotsa fusels are still in the product after 2 or 3 distillations on the pot. It was interesting to re-run my triple distilled thang and funny to find that ugly concentrated stench on the bottom of the pot just after opening it.

Jars, jars, jars.... The middle of the run is always going to make the heart cut, so my 20 jars is hypothetical.

For the simple pot still (not plates and not boka) I'd say that 3 jugs is enuff: early hearts / mid hearts / late hearts. Calling them necks, shoulders, loins is just a matter of one's taste.

Midelton end up with a heart cut around 85% ABV after three runs through the pot stills. Its pretty obvious their third charge isn't below 40% ABV.

I absolutely and categorically agree that something is not right here:

.

* * * * * * * * *

Hehehe, I have something for dessert as 12 hours ago I diluted 3 samples according to the scheme I planned:

Gonna proof down (to 40% by vol.) 3 small samples. The 1st part and the 2nd separately and (#3) the blend of 1st & 2nd at 2:1 plus water. Resting, sniffing, tasting. Being not in a hurry.

.
For now, I won't say anything else here. At least until Saturday. Hehehe again

[NZChris]

For the simple pot still (not plates and not boka) I'd say that 3 jugs is enuff: early hearts / mid hearts / late hearts. Calling them necks, shoulders, loins is just a matter of one's taste.

If that's what you did, you didn't make it sound like it went well for you. viewtopic.php?p=7739253#p7739253

[VLAGAVULVIN]

For the simple pot still (not plates and not boka) I'd say that 3 jugs is enuff: early hearts / mid hearts / late hearts. Calling them necks, shoulders, loins is just a matter of one's taste.

If that's what you did, you didn't make it sound like it went well for you. viewtopic.php?p=7739253#p7739253

As per this - it's not all that clear so far... gimme time till this Saturday, folks

[NZChris]

Doing triple distilled whiskeys/whiskys, I don't recycle anything, all of the feints go through the Bokakob for gin, Absinthe etc.. Using the run ABVs a few commercial operators have made public has worked for me.

Recycling is too complicated for me and I feel it's best suited for those who are constantly making one product and are doing enough cycles to find the 'sweet spot' of how much of both ends of each run has to be discarded to maintain the congener balance for their style of product.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Using the run ABVs a few commercial operators have made public has worked for me.

Me, I like this entry a lot:

If you want to make Single Pot Still Irish-style, then it is going to have at least 30% raw and 30% malted barley. Typically run three times and the 'Feints still' (second distillation) is typically going to have a charge that is a higher ABV than this forum promotes. The third distillation will end with a heart cut above 80% ABV.

What's more, I do it in that way:

No dilution after the 2nd run!

I feel it's best suited for those who are constantly making one product and are doing enough cycles to find the 'sweet spot' of how much of both ends of each run has to be discarded to maintain the congener balance for their style of product.

Correct. It's more for the guys who try to fill a hogshead working with their permanent 5gal.-washes

[NZChris]

Correct. It's more for the guys who try to fill a hogshead working with their permanent 5gal.-washes

There is nothing wrong with doing that if that's your thing and it is your preferred drink. It's probably easier than what I do, making a wide variety of products so that there is plenty of choice in my drinks cabinet.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Correct. It's more for the guys who try to fill a hogshead working with their permanent 5gal.-washes

There is nothing wrong with doing that if that's your thing and it is your preferred drink.

By the way! It's the opportunity to corect'em from batch to batch according to the previously gained effects. Lighter/harder, wider cuts, higher/lower temp. of fermentation and so forth. Huge distilleries need to use 50 various casks to "assemble" the perfect cask only. And we have no 50 barrels but we can profile one just on the fly. Or to blend lotsa different jars with different distillates and different oak inside. Or (what is more effective) to combine jars infused on different staves with some red bucket of sanitization "weak cask of solerization".

It's probably easier than what I do, making a wide variety of products so that there is plenty of choice in my drinks cabinet.

Well, I have one "rum" (aging since 2017), many different bourbons (averagely 2 yrs.old), 1 "light" *solera vatt* with "Glenmorangie-ish Scotch", another my "Scotch solera" is Bizkit and it's closer to Fiddich-15. Then I have a whole bunch of "Crisp Scottish Ultra 80 Peat" based things and/or "Chateau Peated" by Castle Malting stuff... all of them are too young to talk about but I do like working with them! Besides, some wheat, rye or multi-grain "bread wines" (whitedaugs, yeah), infusions, macerations, lotsa trash jars And further - ales, gruits, lambiques and so on and so forth. The cabinet??? Truth to tell, it's time to build shelving 'cause me and my relatives, we like more sports than drinking it all.

* Some day I'll be able to tell more about my "solera" system.

[NZChris]

Correct. It's more for the guys who try to fill a hogshead working with their permanent 5gal.-washes

There is nothing wrong with doing that if that's your thing and it is your preferred drink.

It's the opportunity to corect'em from batch to batch according to the previous effects. Lighter/harder, wider cuts, higher/lower temp. of fermentation and so forth. Huge distilleries need to use 50 various casks to "assemble" the perfect cask only. And we have no 50 barrels but we can profile one just on the fly. Or to blend lotsa different jars with different distillates and different oak inside.

Have you considered that you might be over complicating this? A competent distillery can produce single casks of fine product, age them, then sell them for very respectable prices, on their own merits, with no blending involved.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

A competent distillery can produce single casks of fine product, age them, then sell them for very respectable prices, on their own merits, with no blending involved.

They can. And they do. But how about the percentage of their total sales?
No Chinese snob will buy even Kilchoman's capacities, be they single casks only.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I would love to report that the problem has been solved (by simple rejoining both parts of the hearts), but it is not. So, for those who are still interested - first things first...

For three of my samples, I arranged something like a formalized survey of an "expert" group. The number of respondents was small, and their "professionalism" raised questions, but nonetheless. So, I, the missus, the elder sonnie and his GF were asked about nose, taste & palate, their balance and first association. We spared the GF a taste tests, though.

Well, the 1st sample (earlier hearts) was a bit better than the others. The 2nd (later hearts) was the worst. The smell of the 3rd one was bingo-bingo but it tastes “caustic” like the Alien's bile. That being said, I'm still not sure if it's all about higher alcohols. There is a possibility that this is "liquid smoke", with which I irrigated the grains. Now one and a half buckets of the same mash are being fermented as the previous time, but without liquid smoke. I'm interested in getting to the bottom of the truth.

As for the practical side of the matter, the "nutty vodka" as is (earlier portion) will probably be mixed with the results of the upcoming distillations. The second part of the body will go to the tails. There's not much to drink so far, lol. Irisherly speaking, I feel like idget. That burns with impatience to dramatically widen the heads' cut during the intermediate (2nd) run of my next "single pot session".

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Okay, last Sunday,,, triple-distilled the fermented kasha (that was without liquid smoke and with moderate quantity of dark caramel malt). Diluted. Tasted. Same sh!t in a different day... it's sort of neutral candy @ 87% AbV but smells like fusels @ 83% AbV. It's not ugly, it's rather interesting but... why the hell am I starting to think about 5 plates for it all? Is it so crappy due to the unmalted barley in the mash? Or is it all about on the grain fermentation? My all-rye on-the-grains had no problems like that after triple distillation on the pot. So, is it "green barley" the reason? The pure/single barley malt never made me problems like that... now shall I ferment malts only + off the grain and triple still it? Okay, but then it's not so Irish, so single, so pot... wut the heck?

[Ben]

You need some time on oak. The raw barley flavor changes dramatically in time. Dilute to cask proof, put it in a used barrel or on used oak and forget about it for a while, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[8Ball]

Wait for it …

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Folks... if it's fermented on the grain: the husk of my malted barley part - I'm forced to boil it during the strips. Could it be the reason of all that bitterness? Excepting stinky fusels, of course...

[ I really like what I've been getting so far @ higher than 85-87% AbV... but it's not for oak. It's floral-fruitty-nutty and OK just as white dog. ]

As per your kind advices. How about AbV for oaking - is 63-65% okay to start with? And how about the oak type itself? Got me some American white oak in 2 versions: one is ex-bourbon, another is ex-sherry. The first one has already worked great for my rye. I feel some chocolate and bizkit on the backyard of my 3rd runs so, I'd probably use... both separately to compare them later.

[8Ball]

There it is.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Hi Folks. How are your latest pre-holiday efforts going? Hope, all this tumult gives you some pleasure. And if you still have a bit of time, please help me understand the following quote:

This is the technique you need. Add the heads and tails to the second run. With the second run take the first cut at between 75 to 72%. Run it down at full speed to 50% abv. Back off to half power for about an hour then go full speed down to 20% abv and cut it at 20%. Then you will get the same effect with two runs as you would with a third run and you will get the fantastic flavor in the tails.

The final ABV should be about 51 to 53%. Barrel at that abv. This technique was what the Irish used from the 1700s to the early 1900s. Triple distilling wasnt always used in Ireland as much as Jamesons and Diago would like to tell you.

According to the above mentioned, my complete cuts are:

#1 = heads as anything higher than 75% :: cut it off
#2 = 75 to 72 % abv :: product part
#3 = 72 to 50 % abv : cut it off
#4 = 50% to something after "about an hour" :: product part
#5 = fat swingers full swing from "after an hour" down to 20% abv :: product part
#6 = weak tails :: cut it off

I'm not sure about #4, though...

[Stags]

Can’t help with that quote.

I will say this all sounds pretty unnecessarily complex. Run it till it tastes good, if that’s 2x/3x or just 1.5x, do what tastes good to you. Include feints or don’t. Again, do what you want.

This is all about making the best product to your tastes imo.

One thing I will caution: if you’re following proper safety guidance, you’re gonna spend a shit ton on stainless vessels to store all these feints between runs. That alone would deter me.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Well, a month passed since I mixed (and started oaking) my "other single pot" triple-stilled jars. And below is sort of report for your kind consideration.
.

.
There were 16 one-by-one jars, all equal by volume / degrading by strength.
There also was a couple of "no experts" as you guys can see as above

Talking of the "marriage" principles:

• the cut is 100% okay for my blend if it got ++++

• if some jar had +++ then I take only 75% of it to my blending pan

• accordingly, ++ gave 50% of the jar's contents into a common pool

• and if a jar got 1 "+" of 4 then it squeezed me 25% of its volume only.

.

.
Some aftermath now:
1) the cuts we certainly liked made less than 20% of the total run volume (quite "narrow", eh?)
2) the entire ++++ volume made a bit less than a half (also "not much for the 3rd run)
3) not last last and not least - we liked more the middle jars than 80%-ish AbV...
4) now last but not least - there also was a "comparison" jar from the 2nd run (63% AbV) that got 8 effing "+" crosses and that's quite enuff for the cemetery of my triple distillations.

If I missed something again, please let me know. Or I will remain supposing that "Single Pot Irish whiskey" is not my cup of tea.

P.S. My assemblage was proofed down to 60% AbV and got some sherry cask staves. Now it is slowly walking towards something like Glenmorangie.

P.P.S. The jars ## 1 to 4 :: they are not headsy. They are vodka&vodka and maybe not bad for whitedaug but... was that all worth it?