John Dore two retorts Pot Still.

[Master Van]

We call this type of distillation MSD (many steps distillation ). But the whole distillation process is a single one.We do not prepare low wine for the second distillation separately.But Diplomatico distillery makes double distillation using low wine 56% ABV from column still. Therefore, I had doubts about the distillation process in Jamaica. Is it one or two distillations?

I see what you're saying and I think we're talking the same thing.

So by your MSD definition, a single pass through a double retort would be one.

Yes.

[Master Van]

Generally speaking, you put wash in the main boiler, charge the retorts with whatever you need to make what you want, then run it and choose your heart cut and heads and tails cuts etc. from what comes out of the spout.

Thanks for the information, I thought the same.But if this is only the first start of the equipment and I don't have anything that I can put in the retorts.
Can I start with empty retorts and try to collect low and high wines from the main boiler ? Can I prepare them using another method ?

[NZChris]

Make plenty of wash, more than enough for several runs.

Charge the boiler and the retorts with wash, do a run, choose what you want to keep to charge the retorts with next time.

[Yummyrum]

My advice .( because I’m just starting to do similar)
You need to start somewhere . You obviously can’t do an Authentic run from the very beginning and it will take a few runs to build up the required proportions of Low and High wines .
Put wash in the boiler .Cover the thumper tubes with just enough water to cover .
Run it .
Do a fores cut . Collect everything until the output is coming out at 60%abv . Call this highwines ( even-though it still has all the hearts in it . )
Keep collecting until the output from the still is down to 1%ABV .Call this Low Wines .
So basically just a stripping Run were you make an initial split .

Now , do a second run . Again wash in the boiler . Put the low wines in the first Thumper and the High wines in the second thumper . ( now this is where it gets problematic . I believe the Jamaicans simply put the highwines in at possibly 70%abv , but here at Home distiller Forum , we discourage adding anything to a still that is not first diluted down to 40%ABV . )

On this run collect Foreshots , heads cut , Hearts Cut , highwines cut and low wines cut .

From here on in , the High and Low wines should start to resemble a pattern closer to normal running .

The heads cut can be quite small . Be tight with the cut from Hearts to Tails . At the slightest detection of Tails , switch to High wines . The Hearts cut from this run should be quite drinkable after a bit of aging .

Repeat a few more runs until the Low/High Wines settles in as a repeatable process .

It is now time to investigate the HH Cousins process of liming the Lees left in the Thumpers and adding to the Low and High wines if you wish to do the Higher Ether Rums .

Alas there is no mention anywhere that I have seen that will tell you exactly how much low wines or High wines to the Thumpers and at what ABV .
I guess this is what you are looking for . Good luck in finding it .

However , I think the answer will be adding enough to the Thumpers that they aren’t over full at the end of the run . Once you find that number you will know . It will depend on the exact size of your Boiler and Thumpers .

[Bolverk]

I agree with Yummyrums starting protocol.

On your run after you have the high/low wines for your retorts. Split the contents of that run into 5 fractions

Fores (determined organoleptically)
Heads (determined organoleptically)
Hearts (determined organoleptically)
High tails (high wines, collected from when you notice tails around 60% down to 40%)
Low tails (low wines, 40% down to 20%)

Fores get tossed
Heads get recycled into the boiler on the next run with new wash, and muck
Keep the hearts
High wines go in the second retort on the next run
Low wines go in the first retort on the next run.

The lees (left overs in the the retorts) get mixed with CaO dehydrated and turned into "lime salts". Those "salts" get added to your high wines retort with the high wines and sulfuric acid (Cousins process).

[NZChris]

I don't know that there is any need to put water in the retorts for the initial run. There is no flavor or alcohol in water.

[Yummyrum]

I don't know that there is any need to put water in the retorts for the initial run. There is no flavor or alcohol in water.

Perhaps not . But there will be a more linear process than if it had a dry thumper that dribble fills until the thump tube is covered .

A mute point in a first stripping Run when the ultimate goal is to obtain Low and High wines

[Master Van]

I don't know that there is any need to put water in the retorts for the initial run. There is no flavor or alcohol in water.

I think I'll start with empty retorts.I will start collecting low and high wines in the right direction from the very beginning.If I start distilling on the low power of my boiler, then low and high wines will be collected in retorts very quickly.

[LWTCS]

If those are your little retorts it the pic posted above, can throw a wet rag on the cap of either one to force some condensing as soon as you fire. Get the ball rolling right out of the gate.

[Master Van]

If those are your little retorts it the pic posted above, can throw a wet rag on the cap of either one to force some condensing as soon as you fire. Get the ball rolling right out of the gate.

Yes, this is my equipment in the photo and I have already tested it. I was adjusting the heating capacity of the boiler.But I can also cool the retorts by any methods. You're right.

[Yummyrum]

I don't know that there is any need to put water in the retorts for the initial run. There is no flavor or alcohol in water.

I think I'll start with empty retorts.I will start collecting low and high wines in the right direction from the very beginning.If I start distilling on the low power of my boiler, then low and high wines will be collected in retorts very quickly.

Umm no

You don’t collect High and Low wines in your retorts .
You collect them when they leave the Condenser . What is left in the Retorts (thumpers ) is the Lees. It is basically watery crap devoid of all Alcohol but contains the Acids required for recycling …… iff’n you are going to do all the HHCousins stuff .

[Bolverk]

Running thumpers empty will be similar to running plates without a dephleg, sure it MIGHT collect a little and increase your proof a little, but you're not going to get the full benefit of what the thumpers are doing. You should be deliberately charging them with whatever you need to get your final product.

[NZChris]

I don't know that there is any need to put water in the retorts for the initial run. There is no flavor or alcohol in water.

I'll rephrase that:

I don't know that there is any need to put water, rather than wash, in the retorts for the initial run. There is no flavor or alcohol in water.

Starting with them dry would be even worse than charging them with water.

I must say that I am very surprised by how little you know about the still and how to run it. I'm not in the habit of writing treatises for people who haven't bothered to do basic research.

[Master Van]

Hello.I did the distillation.I started distillation with empty retorts.I did the distillation at a low power of my boiler and the whole process was good and stable.I've never made alcohol like this.It's completely different than the one I've done before.This distillate is very dense.It smells fruity and sweet.Pineapple comes to the first nose, followed by dried banana, mango , figs and dates
I also collected some liquid in my retorts.This liquid is not crystal clear, but it is not dirty either.
The liquid in the first retort is - 10% ABV
Liquid in the second retort is - 25% ABV
I am happy with the result of my first distillation.But there is also a negative point.I have gathered very few different factions.There was very little alcohol in my wash.The wash was made from molasses without added sugar.Fermentation stopped at 10% This is a problem of last time when I only use molasses.This has never happened before.Previously fermentation stopped at 4% or 6% I think the quality of molasses is getting worse.I get a good fermentation result only if I add sugar.
Ok.Now I'm thinking about what to do next.I think I need to find better ingredients for future fermentation.

[Bolverk]

The retorts act as esterification chambers. You have to remember that acid+alcohol=ester+water. This equation works both left and right so if you have carboxylic acids and alcohol in a high water environment you may have some esters but it will be in very low concentration. But if you start removing the water you get more ester formation (consequently if you were to add too much water back, you'll break those ester bonds).

You solve for this by pre-charging your retorts with the desirable acids and alcohols to create the esters, thats why I was saying you put low tails in the first retort and high tails in the second. (Some people put heads in the first retort, but I find that the spirit is too heavy in aceditc acid esters for my tastes). It's this mixing of low and high boiling point acids and alcohols that would otherwise not really interact together that gives you an ester diverse final spirit.

As for your low yield, that could be a number of things.
1. You left a lot of you alcohol in the retorts.
2. What was the sugar content of the molasses you used? I'm assuming you used only molasses, or did you add sugar as well?
3. What was the starting gravity of your wash and ending gravity? Did you use dunder (stillage), and at what percentage?
4. Was the wash done fermenting? Eg not stalled?

[Master Van]

The retorts act as esterification chambers. You have to remember that acid+alcohol=ester+water. This equation works both left and right so if you have carboxylic acids and alcohol in a high water environment you may have some esters but it will be in very low concentration. But if you start removing the water you get more ester formation (consequently if you were to add too much water back, you'll break those ester bonds).

You solve for this by pre-charging your retorts with the desirable acids and alcohols to create the esters, thats why I was saying you put low tails in the first retort and high tails in the second. (Some people put heads in the first retort, but I find that the spirit is too heavy in aceditc acid esters for my tastes). It's this mixing of low and high boiling point acids and alcohols that would otherwise not really interact together that gives you an ester diverse final spirit.

As for your low yield, that could be a number of things.
1. You left a lot of you alcohol in the retorts.
2. What was the sugar content of the molasses you used? I'm assuming you used only molasses, or did you add sugar as well?
3. What was the starting gravity of your wash and ending gravity? Did you use dunder (stillage), and at what percentage?
4. Was the wash done fermenting? Eg not stalled?

I only used molasses for my wash.I started the fermentation at 18,5 - 19% BRIX. After a week of fermentation, it ends at 10%.And this is not the first time.I added some live dunder only 1 liter at the end of fermentation.After four days of waiting, I started distilling.I think it's a bad quality of molasses.

What would you recommend to do with the retort liquid that I have now for the next distillation?

[Bolverk]

I only used molasses for my wash.I started the fermentation at 18,5 - 19% BRIX. After a week of fermentation, it ends at 10%.And this is not the first time.I added some live dunder only 1 liter at the end of fermentation.After four days of waiting, I started distilling.I think it's a bad quality of molasses.

Yeah, that's only about a 4.3% wash.

Typically you'll see starting gravity in an all molasses wash up in the 1.090's going all the way up to 1.1, with only a 6-8% potential, there are a lot of unfermentables in molasses. You need to find that balance of high enough sugar content to make the run worth to work, but not so high that you're overly stressing the yeast. It is not uncommon to only have a 6% beer if you're using dunder (stillage) in place of a percentage of your water.

Best way I've found to figure your wash potential is to find the sugar content of the molasses and do the math. A gallon of black strap molasses weights about 12 lbs, and is 50% sugar, so there is 6lbs of sugar per gallon. 1lb of sugar in 1 gallon of water has a 6.6% potential abv. So a 1.25lbs of sugar per gallon (8% potential) is a good starting point in my opinion.

[Master Van]

Ok.Thanks.There is a lot of information and it is difficult to remember everything at once.I've read all the recommendations again and I think I understand how it works.

[Yummyrum]

This all molasses wash works well and will give you about 8% beer .Been using it for years .
viewtopic.php?p=7530792#p7530792

[Bolverk]

I'd second what Yummyrum posted. SSBs rum is a solid choice, and one you can grow with you as you want to experiment.

[haggy]

Master Van,

I have done some work on estimating what two thumpers can do. I started a thread and posted and discussed several applications. One of the applications was about Jamaican Rum made with two thumpers. Go see my three posts on March 3 and 6, 2023, I did a process following the Harry chart. Here is the thread.

viewtopic.php?t=89605

I think I got the two thumper charges of low wines and high wines correct. But I started with 10% abv wash in the pot. If you can make those charges and then make a two thumper run with them, you might get the high ester product you want.

Further

If you have details of your two thumper ( retort ) still and can send them to me, I can do some estimation of the Harry chart with your thumpers and see what product abv you might expect with different thumper charges and run conditions. Probably, I should start with about 8% abv in the pot.

haggy