Dephlegmator not needed to reflux?

[Yummyrum]

I’ll third that .


BTW , You can't attach videos to forum . Have to upload them to You-tube and insert a link .

[Swedish Pride]

To balance the column, runn in full reflux at the max power the column can handle without flooding.

If it floods you need to turn down the power, not the RC.

Yep on collection speed, 2-2.5 liter per min is good, actually less if you shoot for neutral.

Mod edit.
I think you mean 2 to 2.5 litres per hour SwedishP.
120L per hour seems a little quick.

[shadylane]

Got a pic of the bubble cap plates or the name of the manufacture?

[fiery creations]

Oh man… isn’t 2-2.5LPH about the same output as on a packed 2” CCVM column? It still have mine…. If that’s the case, I’d probably be better off getting an adapter (if possible) to throw my old column on this 26 gal boiler.

I knew the plated column wouldn’t be ideal, but I couldn’t stand the slow off take on my 2” column. If it’s no better… might as well go back to it.

Best picture I could get. Sorry, but my YouTube channel has a lot of subscribers and is very public. Don’t want to put the video up there. Is the ss mile high flute. Probably more pictures of it on my previous posts.

[OtisT]

Oh man… isn’t 2-2.5LPH about the same output as on a packed 2” CCVM column?

Not for me. Making neutral, my product rate on a 2” packed column is below 1 lph.

The power needed for a 2” is significantly less than what you put into a 4” plated column, and then there is your reflux ratio to maintain, so you will only be collecting a small fraction of the vapor produced at that power level.

[Saltbush Bill]

Oh man… isn’t 2-2.5LPH about the same output as on a packed 2” CCVM column?

I think you have lot of learning to do, this isn't a hobby you can rush.
As Otis has just pointed out most people run 2 inch packed columns slower that 2 lph if they want a good neutral product.
Push any column still, be it plated or packed, to hard and your jars will be full of tails.
If you want rotgut crap by all means go fast, if you want quality.....slooooooooow down.

[Yummyrum]

What Otis said .
But if you can get 2.5l/hr on that 10plater that tastes OK , then be happy . @5 l/hour it will taste horrible .Like Salty said , it just drags tails through .

If you pulled all the plates out and packed it and made it about 2metres tall , and had about 8kw in the boiler and access to plenty of cooling water , you might be able to get enough reflux ratio to be able to pull 95% abv at 4l/hr.

Incidentally , I scrapped my 4” reflux and went back to my 2” . Even though it is slower , it is more practical .

[Saltbush Bill]

A Happy medium would be a 3 inch packed column of the correct length.
It should be good for around 3lph at azeo.
That equates to 6lph or better of 40-45%.....that should be enough to keep most folk in drinking stock.

[fiery creations]

Oh man… isn’t 2-2.5LPH about the same output as on a packed 2” CCVM column?

I think you have lot of learning to do, this isn't a hobby you can rush.
As Otis has just pointed out most people run 2 inch packed columns slower that 2 lph if they want a good neutral product.
Push any column still, be it plated or packed, to hard and your jars will be full of tails.
If you want rotgut crap by all means go fast, if you want quality.....slooooooooow down.

Well it's been about 15 years now... Albeit maybe not the best way. My biggest mistake is not taking notes and trying to go by memory. I went to this setup because of how mind numbingly slow my 2" was. Pretty sure I ran it faster than 2LPH and I can't say I ever got tails in it. More heads maybe, but tails are gross and I never noticed them smearing.

What Otis said .
But if you can get 2.5l/hr on that 10plater that tastes OK , then be happy . @5 l/hour it will taste horrible .Like Salty said , it just drags tails through .

If you pulled all the plates out and packed it and made it about 2metres tall , and had about 8kw in the boiler and access to plenty of cooling water , you might be able to get enough reflux ratio to be able to pull 95% abv at 4l/hr.

Incidentally , I scrapped my 4” reflux and went back to my 2” . Even though it is slower , it is more practical .

So interesting. If you guys were saying heads smeared in I could agree, but I really don't feel any tails have been pulled through on this or my two inch. In one of my other posts I mentioned tasting strong tails in everything at a local craft distillery. I've never got that.

Curious what you mean by more practical? To me, time efficiency is "practical." I got so fed up with burning half or more of a day watching it drip for a couple liters of neutral....after all the ferments and stripping.

A Happy medium would be a 3 inch packed column of the correct length.
It should be good for around 3lph at azeo.
That equates to 6lph or better of 40-45%.....that should be enough to keep most folk in drinking stock.

You think it's more practical/cheaper to just pack the 4" I have like Yummyrum said, as opposed to buying a 3" column, packing, and adapter for my 4" boiler?

[Saltbush Bill]

You think it's more practical/cheaper to just pack the 4" I have like Yummyrum said, as opposed to buying a 3" column, packing, and adapter for my 4" boiler?

I have no idea, I've never tried packing a plated column to find out, you would have to remove all of the plates though.
I do run a 3 inch boka so know a little about those.
I mostly try not to get involved in discussions about things I've no person experience with.

[shadylane]

Looks like well designed plates. Nothing wrong with them other than you're driving it too hard.
I think a 2" packed column and a 4" bubble cap run similar power, but the caps can't handle as much reflux before flooding. Maybe buy some 4" SS spools and packing. Then you can easily run 4 - 5 ltrs per hour.

[MooseMan]

To give some balance to the numbers FC, I run a correctly sized 2.5" column packed with copper mesh, and the highest output I can get with good clean neutral is 1.6lph. That's after a lot of optimising of the setup.
Any higher than that, the proof drops, it's no longer neutral and I can taste the difference.
I can't imagine needing so much neutral that you need to run at 4--5lph as a hobbyist.
At most I do 3 reflux runs a year, and my Mrs and I drink and gift a fair bit of gin!

[haggy]

fiery,

Actually, it is a very good idea to convert your existing 4" column ( without the plates ) to a packed reflux column if making product close to azeo is the goal. Packing 8 or 10 window sections ( 48" or 60" ) with scrubbies can be a easy, cheap way to try it out.

I have had a recent successful journey with PoolGuy on his 2" packed CM reflux column. He also started running at high rates and high watts. We worked together with many Email communications to find the best settings for his 2" column to make 95% / 96% product from SSS low wines. After about six or seven trials, he/we learned the best way to run his still. The best settings were about 25% pot abv, 1800 watts and 1 L/hr. He is making several repeatable runs now and is very happy. He learned to slow down the run, he can set it and almost forget it as it runs very steady. This is a CM reflux column.

I also gained a LOT from this interaction. PoolGuy followed my instructions on getting good data for the column and for the defleg. I used his data to improve and confirm the calcs I have for packed columns. I developed and programmed a browser Javascripit program that fit all the data. I will put a Data Sheet at the end of this post to show you a recent run.

So What?
Well, I can use that browser program to predict / estimate what the fiery 4" packed column can do and how it can make azeo and at what product rate.

So, I have just made those 4" CM reflux column computer runs and have some info to share.

First, you only have 3280 watts maximum now. That is OK. I will use that. You can make and strip SSS to get about 15 gal of 25% abv low wines. Let's first go with 8 x 6" window sections and pack them with scrubbies. And we will try to get 2.5 L /hr product rate. Later, you could buy a 48" long 4" spool if you want, or not.

Now the bugger is the defleg. I roughly estimate its dimensions from pictures in your posts. fiery - tell me the exact defleg dimension - I think it is an 8 tubes of 0.5 in diameter and 6" long, and a 4" shell. We will have fresh 15 C cw entering at the bottom nozzle - defleg RC condenser. About 0.52 ft^2 surface area. Not a big one but a starter. It can be replaced if it is too small.

You will also have to buy another cw water pump like your existing pump. Then run the RC and PC each independently from their own pump out of and into your large blue barrels. Or find another way to get an independent flow to the RC defleg.


Expected Results From Your 4" Packed Column

From the run data of PoolGuy, I was able to determine the vapor flow rate up the packed column and build a correlation to predict it. Turns out that that vapor flow rate is about the same as the vapor flow from a boiling pot. It increases with the pot abv and the watts used.

The product rate is obtained by measuring the time it takes to collect a certain amount. The reflux rate is the difference in the vapor flow up the column and the product rate. So now we know the Reflux Ratio ( RR ). Many other characteristics of the run are also able to be estimated.

So, for your 4" packed column run at the above conditions ( 25% pot abv, 3280 watts, 2.5 L/hr product rate ), expect that a 95-96 % abv product can be made with the 48" column. It takes about 1 hour to heat up the pot and a run time of about 6 hours to the tails is expected.

The RR is about 3.4 and from 2.5 to 3 gal of hearts can be made. The vapor velocity in the 4" column should be low enough so that little or no entrainment and no tails smearing should occur.

The defleg may be a problem. I think my defleg dimensions and calcs are close enough to see this result. It would take about 3 L/hr cw rate to condense the reflux flow required. That is probably unacceptable. The current defleg is too small for these packed column conditions.

If you buy another defleg, you need at least 0.75 ft^s surface area, 1.5 times the current. Buying another similar 6" long defleg and adding it will double the surface area. For this double defleg case, about 0.9 to 1 L/hr cw rate is needed.

Conclusions

So, it should be possible to make your 95-96% abv product at a good 2.5 L/hr rate with your current set-up converted to a packed scrubbies column. You probably need a bigger defleg RC condenser.

Many other simulation runs can be made on my browser program to find conditions suitable for the existing defleg. Probably a lower watts rate, or higher product rate and lower RR will reduce the reflux flow rate required so that 1 L/hr cw flow rate can be run with the current defleg.

You can also study and find out what the maximum product rate you can get from your packed column. I did a "quicky" and saw that a 5 L/hr product rate at a lower RR and lower abv ( about 88-92% abv ) can be made. Even almost with the current defleg at about 1.5 L/hr +- cw rate.

______________________________________________________________

For those that want to see more results and play with the calculator, I would like to attach the browser program. It is set up with the above run conditions as a start. Download it into a folder, click on it and run it in your browser. You can change all the run conditions and see what happens. You can input your column and conditions and compare it with your results and give me feedback.

Bummer, HD will not allow an html file here. PM me with your Email if you want to use it. So, I will attach a print screen of the browser calculator Inputs and Results.

Also at the end is attached a Data Sheet from one of PoolGuy's actual runs that I used to develop the browser calculator and confirm it with real results.

As Ralphie said " This sounds like a f------ commercial." So what? It's free. But caveat emptor.

haggy

[fiery creations]

Haggy,

Appreciate the massive amount of detail and explanation You’ve been giving me. Not ignoring your message, just need to find some time to give you an equally thorough response.

[fiery creations]

I can't imagine needing so much neutral that you need to run at 4--5lph as a hobbyist.
At most I do 3 reflux runs a year, and my Mrs and I drink and gift a fair bit of gin!

Good point, for a true neutral, there isn’t too much that I actually do with it and that should last plenty of time. I guess in that perspective a 6 to 8 hour run two or three times a year is not a big deal.

Maybe I’m conflating this with doing rum and other clear spirits.

I hope when I do my first batch of rum, gin, and vodka on this, I can have a faster offtake. But if I’m not mistaken even if I’m doing a wheat or potato vodka, it I would still want as many plates and as clean as I could get it right?

[LWTCS]

Looks like well designed plates. Nothing wrong with them other than you're driving it too hard.
I think a 2" packed column and a 4" bubble cap run similar power, but the caps can't handle as much reflux before flooding. Maybe buy some 4" SS spools and packing. Then you can easily run 4 - 5 ltrs per hour.

I would say well made rather than well designed. There has been some evolution since MH copied those components. And if MH hasn't been keeping up, then I would bet that the available open area on that plate assembly is less than optimal. Not as critical with a lesser plate count. But start adding plates and you need to add heat input. More heat = more pressure. More pressure makes it more difficult to cope with the fussy hydraulic behavior as you mention.

[shadylane]

Guess I was only commenting on the caps.
The downcomer can be a whole nuther subject.

A side note.

My 2cents worth, there's better designs than using tubing for the downcomer.
I've played around using thin copper sheet to make side downcomers similar to fig. 12
It leaves more cap area than a single copper tube and the hydraulics are better.

https://welchem.com/fileadmin/pub/WelCh ... 2021-1.pdf

[shadylane]

@ fiery creations, I just realized it's the novice section.

Here's a trick that often works to get a persnickety plated column to behave.
Once the column has acted up and flooding on top. Temporarily kill the heat and let all the reflux fall and fill the downcomer traps. Then turn the heat back on at around 3/4 of the flooding power.

Start with a slow cooling water drip out of the deph.
Don't make cooling adjustments until you figure out the power.
Most likely the needle valve, deph and pressure are much more than what the tall plated column needs.
Mybe using a variable pressure regulator to drop the pressure so the needle valve isn't as sensitive.

[fiery creations]

Thanks. Now I see why you guys said get a needle valve or go mad. Didn’t realize just how minuscule the inputs would be. Drips… my quarter turn was definitely more than that, I this is starting to make sense where I went wrong.

[shadylane]

Not often we see a 10 cap tall column here.
Unfortunately, I think the height is contributing to some of the problems.

[Saltbush Bill]

A quarter turn even with four plates and a needle valve makes a big difference on my stills.
That's a cool paper Shady, don't think I've ever seen that one before.
https://welchem.com/fileadmin/pub/WelCh ... 2021-1.pdf

[LWTCS]

@ fiery creations, I just realized it's the novice section.

Here's a trick that often works to get a persnickety plated column to behave.
Once the column has acted up and flooding on top. Temporarily kill the heat and let all the reflux fall and fill the downcomer traps. Then turn the heat back on at around 3/4 of the flooding power.

Start with a slow cooling water drip out of the deph.
Don't make cooling adjustments until you figure out the power.
Most likely the needle valve, deph and pressure are much more than what the tall plated column needs.
Mybe using a variable pressure regulator to drop the pressure so the needle valve isn't as sensitive.

100%
Killing power and letting the plates drain also ensures that the DC cup is filled. (Edit: ah you already mentioned that, duh) This prevents ( notwithstanding too much heat input) vapor bypass and therefore even worse hydraulic behavior