Solera system aging discussion in here!

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VLAGAVULVIN
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

brewbob wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:24 am
MooseMan wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:09 am I really like that for a small solera Bob, simple and easy to maintain.
It's been a fun project, watching the color develop and the flavor stabilize. I'm not perfect so I'll admit a couple times it went 3 weeks before pour. I've also gotten greedy and poured 500ml, pour 250ml then reset by transferring like normal, then pour another 250ml....I wanted a bottle for deer camp.
Not bad approach, fella :thumbup: Do you let them staves dry out from time to time? And do you use different "fractions" for different kinds of staves? For instance, beg-hearts for slightly toasted and close-to-tales for burnt harder?

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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by LWTCS »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:02 am Here the first barrel gets the top up, but only after the 3rd barrel has been topped from the second Barrel and the second from the first.
That's about the way I see it SBB.
Are your barrels all the same size?
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Larry first barrel is a 50L , second is 25L, then they progress to 15 and 10L.
In reality what leaves the second barrel these days is quite drinkable, I really only go further because I can. One particular 10L at the end of the line hasn't been touched except to top up now for over two years........saving that one for a special occasion.
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by LWTCS »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:50 pm Larry first barrel is a 50L , second is 25L, then they progress to 15 and 10L.
In reality what leaves the second barrel these days is quite drinkable, I really only go further because I can. One particular 10L at the end of the line hasn't been touched except to top up now for over two years........saving that one for a special occasion.
So largest at the top / smallest at the bottom then?
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Correct.
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by PalCabral »

As I am starting up my home production, I don't have the output yet to set up a Solera system. I need to find out what works and what does not, my cuts, what toast and char to use, etc. But I am planning to set up a Solera, for whatever spirits I don't use up the first year after distillation. This is an excellent thread, full of information, and so are the threads where SBB and Vlagavulvin are sharing their Solera systems. So much insights.

I see three school of thoughts, just showing how "dynamic" dynamic aging can be. They are: 1) Start big and slim down - biggest barrel first, then stepwise smaller barrels, 2) equal size through out Solera, and 3) grow in size, smaller barrels to a final big Solera barrel.

The "equal size" model makes sense if you have a regular production of the product you want to mature - what you take out from the Solera is replenished from previous barrels and the youngest barrel is filled with an equal amount new take, or at least young spirits. The "grow in size" also makes sense if you are not consuming as much as you are producing, i.e. building up stock - replenish the Solera from previous layer, which is in turn replenished etc.

But I can't really make heads or tails of how the starting with the "biggest barrel first" would work, to me it feels inefficient. Let me try to explain by using the example of SBB, starting with a 50L pre-oaking barrel in steel, then a 50L barrel, a 25L/15L/10L, and finally a series of 5L/6Ls barrels - which are set up in the traditional equal size Solera system.

And sorry if it seems like I am questioning SBB here, I'm not, I am merely using his detailed explanation of how his system works to put my thoughts across.
Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 2:34 am My first is a 50L ,which is used to top up a 25L ,this then tops up a series of 5 or 6 L barrels.
The 50 is kept full from a 50L stainless beer keg full of Rum which has a heap of old used Dominos and used home made toasted sticks in it to help with pre-oaking......most of my barrels have done a lot of work...pre oaking lightens their load
This method works well imo, that end barrel will end up having a blend of all that you have made over many generations and many years.
Let's assume that the final volume of product after a batch is 10L and that the maximum you take out of the Solera barrel in the end of the system is 1/3 of the barrel's (5L) capacity. This means that the volume to be replenished back through the system is only 1.8L and the biggest and youngest barrel will only need to be topped up at 3% of its' total capacity. You'll be having to mature 8.2L of new take in some other barrel or holding them in a resting jar until the next time the system needs topping up. That's a lot of excess.

I am not saying it doesn't work but I am saying that a system that starts big and goes small is not as efficient as a system of equal size or of growing size. What I see is a replenishment system that clogs up and where the youngest barrel in the Solera system is not refreshed with new take fast/often enough, unless you use the youngest barrel for other purposes than feeding into your Solera system. (I work with process improvements in my day job, so you can call this a work related injury. :eugeek: )

No harm done, I am pretty sure that SBB is using the excess from his 50L and 25L barrels for younger bottlings or maturing in other casks :thumbup:
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by howie »

palcabral- i do it the same as SSB, ie large to small.
one thing that i can say is this.......
the small barrel that the stuff is bottled from (for me) is a 5L.
so to fill 3 x 1L bottles, i need 1.85L of 65% rum to fill those bottles at 40%.
so this 1.85 is taken from barrel #2, which combined with the angels share from #2 leaves it about 2.5L short.
so i need 2.5L from #3, which together with the angels share, needs 3.2L to fill from #4
see where i'm going with this?
so by the time i get to #5 (my large barrel) i have to take 4 or 5L from #5 to fill #4.
my #5 barrel is only 15L, so i refill this with about 5L of pre-oaked rum.
having the barrels the other way around (size wise) doesn't make sense to me, but that's just the way i set it up :)
the more i think about which way is best, the more confused i become :lol:
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by PalCabral »

howie wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 3:22 am palcabral- i do it the same as SSB, ie large to small.
one thing that i can say is this.......
the small barrel that the stuff is bottled from (for me) is a 5L.
so to fill 3 x 1L bottles, i need 1.85L of 65% rum to fill those bottles at 40%.
so this 1.85 is taken from barrel #2, which combined with the angels share from #2 leaves it about 2.5L short.
so i need 2.5L from #3, which together with the angels share, needs 3.2L to fill from #4
see where i'm going with this?
so by the time i get to #5 (my large barrel) i have to take 4 or 5L from #5 to fill #4.
my #5 barrel is only 15L, so i refill this with about 5L of pre-oaked rum.
having the barrels the other way around (size wise) doesn't make sense to me, but that's just the way i set it up :)
the more i think about which way is best, the more confused i become :lol:
That's a good point, Howie. I never vectored in evaporation in my thought process. What's your evaporation rate in your system? I assume it's more in smaller barrels than in the bigger, percent-wise?
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by howie »

PalCabral wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 4:29 am
howie wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 3:22 am the small barrel that the stuff is bottled from (for me) is a 5L.
so to fill 3 x 1L bottles, i need 1.85L of 65% rum to fill those bottles at 40%.
so this 1.85 is taken from barrel #2, which combined with the angels share from #2 leaves it about 2.5L short.
so i need 2.5L from #3, which together with the angels share, needs 3.2L to fill from #4
see where i'm going with this?
so by the time i get to #5 (my large barrel) i have to take 4 or 5L from #5 to fill #4.
my #5 barrel is only 15L, so i refill this with about 5L of pre-oaked rum.
That's a good point, Howie. I never vectored in evaporation in my thought process. What's your evaporation rate in your system? I assume it's more in smaller barrels than in the bigger, percent-wise?
the angels share seem to be about the same percentage wise.
i've got a couple of barrels that seem to be a bit more generous to the angels than others, but i've not really measured things very accurately.
i am fortunate to live in a hot dry climate so the angels don't get too much alcohol.
i barrel at 65% abv, but the barrels now range from 74% to 79%.
one thing i've thought of tonight, you would probably want to size your barrels according to the take off per year.
ie it's no use emptying the take-off barrel completely as it doesn't give the new rums time to blend.
my take-off barrel has rum in it that is over 4 years old.(but probably a small percentage :) )
my big barrel was started 3 years ago.
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

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howie wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 6:03 am
PalCabral wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 4:29 am
howie wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 3:22 am the small barrel that the stuff is bottled from (for me) is a 5L.
so to fill 3 x 1L bottles, i need 1.85L of 65% rum to fill those bottles at 40%.
so this 1.85 is taken from barrel #2, which combined with the angels share from #2 leaves it about 2.5L short.
so i need 2.5L from #3, which together with the angels share, needs 3.2L to fill from #4
see where i'm going with this?
so by the time i get to #5 (my large barrel) i have to take 4 or 5L from #5 to fill #4.
my #5 barrel is only 15L, so i refill this with about 5L of pre-oaked rum.
That's a good point, Howie. I never vectored in evaporation in my thought process. What's your evaporation rate in your system? I assume it's more in smaller barrels than in the bigger, percent-wise?
the angels share seem to be about the same percentage wise.
i've got a couple of barrels that seem to be a bit more generous to the angels than others, but i've not really measured things very accurately.
i am fortunate to live in a hot dry climate so the angels don't get too much alcohol.
i barrel at 65% abv, but the barrels now range from 74% to 79%.
one thing i've thought of tonight, you would probably want to size your barrels according to the take off per year.
ie it's no use emptying the take-off barrel completely as it doesn't give the new rums time to blend.
my take-off barrel has rum in it that is over 4 years old.(but probably a small percentage :) )
my big barrel was started 3 years ago.
Hi Howie,
Approximately what percentage of total volume do you leave in your take off barrel?
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by howie »

lwtcs - i usually fill 3 bottles, which takes approximately 40% of the 5L barrel.
i measure the ABV of the rum and calculate how much i need for 3L @ 40%, sometimes i make navy strength.
there isn't any scientific evidence or research into this method, it's just seems to suit my personal intake.
i'm not a big rum drinker, but i enjoy a few on the rocks, the occasional dark & stormy.
so the barrels get topped up about twice a year.
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

https://whiskipedia.com/fundamentals/solera-method/

Brief history of the Soleras method

It is believed that the Soleras method of dynamic aging was born in Sanlúcar de Barrameda, a town near Jerez, in the second part of the 18th century, probably around 1760. Prior to its development, all sherries were bottled as vintages or aged wines. Initially it was simply a matter of blending wine from the previous vintage (called vino añejo) with the new production, but this gradually evolved into a more complex blending system of statically aged wines of different ages. The Solera and criaderas system as we know it today, it dates back to the 19th century and its final development coincides with the development of the use of Flor. Some historical Soleras back to the appointments in order from the 700 are still in operation, although in any case none of the original barrels may have survived, being a dynamic system that also implies the rehabilitation and progressive replacement of the “exhausted” barrels. Claiming these are the same soleras poses an interesting alternative frame for the Ship of Theseus thought experiment. In the past it was common to put the year of foundation of the Solera on the label, but this practice has now been abandoned as it tended to mislead the consumer.
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I find the Solera approach to be highly romantic with an averaging over many contributing runs. Add in ongoing generational recycling of feints and backset/stillage where appropriate and it makes a great and consistent house spirit with the opportunity to affect small or large changes over time with how you choose to make your cuts each run - with little fear of ruining the whole thing...

I also enjoy a 'finishing vessel" where I might take 1/3 to 1/2 off the end of the solera line and pop it into a port/oak or sherry/oak infused badmo or sticks/glass for a few months... Whatever finishing you might enjoy :) - I have a port/grappa badmo conditioning now for maybe almost a year that I'm looking forward to using for something soon - probably earmarked as a vessel to hold a finished bourbon.

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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by LWTCS »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2025 2:56 am https://whiskipedia.com/fundamentals/solera-method/

Brief history of the Soleras method

It is believed that the Soleras method of dynamic aging was born in Sanlúcar de Barrameda, a town near Jerez, in the second part of the 18th century, probably around 1760. Prior to its development, all sherries were bottled as vintages or aged wines. Initially it was simply a matter of blending wine from the previous vintage (called vino añejo) with the new production, but this gradually evolved into a more complex blending system of statically aged wines of different ages. The Solera and criaderas system as we know it today, it dates back to the 19th century and its final development coincides with the development of the use of Flor. Some historical Soleras back to the appointments in order from the 700 are still in operation, although in any case none of the original barrels may have survived, being a dynamic system that also implies the rehabilitation and progressive replacement of the “exhausted” barrels. Claiming these are the same soleras poses an interesting alternative frame for the Ship of Theseus thought experiment. In the past it was common to put the year of foundation of the Solera on the label, but this practice has now been abandoned as it tended to mislead the consumer.

Thanks for the article.
I feel any misunderstanding of what Solara is with respect to foundational age statements is more of intentional industry,,,,trickery pushed out to the general public rather than a flaw in the actual process.

A bit more early transparency could have saved a little heart ache with respect to any negativity the Solara method reputation has suffered. Fact I prefer a blended spirit compared to single barrel spirit.

The whole "small batch" , "single barrel" trend is overrated in my opinion. If anything, those two formats are misrepresented equally as much as Solara.
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Re: Solera system aging discussion in here!

Post by PalCabral »

Isn't part of the problem that you describe, LWTCS, that we are really talking about different types of dynamic aging, as opposed to static aging, but using the name Solera for all of them? To my knowledge, the Solera system is used in Jerez for the making of Sherry, using tiers called criaderas leading to a final tier called Solera.

However, this is not the only system used for dynamic aging but because Solera is the name everyone knows, all dynamic aging is called Solera. The one in Jerez as well as all the others. The one in Jerez is terribly ambitious and has a profound impact on the taste of the different types of Sherry. The one that I know is used in Portugal for Port wine is much more simple, basically in-line barrels that backfill eachother as product is emptied from the oldest. Some Port house may want to capitalize on the moniker Solera on their labels, but besides the fact it's dynamic aging it has very little to do with the Solera system of Jerez.

Dynamic aging is not one method, that's why it's easy to misunderstand it. My cents on it.
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