Dispelling a myth.Why you can make whiskey in a reflux colum

[googe]

When I was using a pot, I found it hard to get lots of different tastes, there was always the same sort of flavors in every bottle, with my bubbler I find I can have alot more variation, blend some heads and tails into the hearts tastes like it did from my pot. Straight hearts is just so clean and pure and flavorsome, I could never get that from my pot. Like you say though, it's all about personal taste. I like the ability to do it which ever way I like though.

[Jimbo]

I like the ability to do it which ever way I like though.

More control right? Thats what everyone has said, sounds good to me if thats the case. Ill build one soon and probably be joining you guys on the dark side.

[LWTCS]

You can certainly modify your running style with the bubble column to more closely mimic a pot still.

Minimizing the 100% reflux mode or even eliminating that phase of the run by using your reflux condenser as a true partial condenser for example.

[wv_cooker]

Guy's from what I see is you are trying to compare Apples to Apples, wouldn't it be more like Apples to Oranges. An 8% wash of 12 gal would yield around 4 gallons in one run on a pot still. The same 8% 12 gal wash would yield right around 1 gal including fores heads and hearts on a reflux column at 95%. That would make Usge's illustration look more like this:

Everything on a reflux column is way more compressed than on a pot still even the hearts cut.To get back to the same 55% of your single run on a pot still, I have to add back enough water to almost double the size of a reflux run, that still only leaves me 2 gallon. If I took my hearts cut and added back my early tails as you can see them clearly in the illustration, maybe some very late heads. I could turn my almost neutral Vodka into Whiskey. The thing that amazes me throughout all of these discussions is that when we are trying to reach azeotrope neutral we are removing nasties and garbage, but when we are making whiskey we are adding back Flavor. The thread was originally about being able to make whiskey with a reflux column, now realizing that most Flutes were built with 4 plates, I know there are others but the accepted Norm seems to be 4. It has been proven many times over that a 4 plate Flute makes good whiskey at 90% in a single run. I challenge you to make 95% vodka in a single run without flavor on a 4 plate Flute without making any change to it from it's original configuration. We know that MR has reached azeotrope on a 4" packed column at under 36", now that makes me wonder can we take about 16" of packed column which would be somewhat the equivalence of a 4 plate Flute in HETP's and make as flavorful a drink at 90% just like a 4 plate flute. It's all about how many redistillations and how much smearing to achieve the taste that you like, using whatever still that you want.

[googe]

Fair point, I'm blaming empty for starting the bubbler talk (jk). Maybe someone should start a thread on this with a plated column in mind, I cant really comment about packed columns cause ive never had or ran one. So ill leave yas to it

[wv_cooker]

No, No, No, Googe we want the plated column discussions as well. Didn't mean to act like that at all. Just wanted to show the differences. A plated column is a reflux column too. Seems as though this thread has gone all over the place with different stills, packing plates, all kinds of ways, but there are still the same alcohols in a wash no matter what. Whether highly compressed in a packed column, partially compressed in a 4 plate Flute or smeared all over the place in a pot still the same fractions are in every wash. Some washes are better for whiskey, some vodka, some rum but the fractions are still there. Making whiskey or rum or we will call them flavored spirits is more about personal taste than anything else and that is what makes this thread fun. Everyone knows what they like, but it's a little hard to explain exact taste to everyone else huh.

Edited: To say that Empty must cause a lot of trouble over there in Ausyland, He seems to get the blame for everything.

[emptyglass]

I'm good with that. You can blame me for not mowing the grass or putting the bin out too if you want.

Jimbo, when I'm running flavored drinks through a flute, I'm usually running UJ or rum. Both of them I give enough time under full reflux to charge the plates, then start slowly drawing fores off after a few minutes. I keep increasing the take off rate after the fores are collected, as the heads finnish, I start collecting at my normal rate (2-3 litres/hr, depending). I try to run it sort of like a pot, I don't use prolonged refluxing periods between fores/heads/hearts as I would making neutral.
Reflux for too long and the flavor ends up back in the wash, I've found.

headstails.jpg

I like this one.

I think if there is going to be an epiphany, I think its already happened.
You can make whiskey in a reflux column

But it does seem to have turned more into general discussion of the pros and cons of doing it.

[thecroweater]

ssh don't tell googe that it was me that introduced the plate jargon here then snigger cool seeing some else get the blame

[googe]

Sorry cooker, read it wrong it is a confusing thread after all lol. Oh well, it was someone in the bush thats to blame .

[thecroweater]

Ok bout time MR hammers this thread back into line I reckon this would be a good place to start

Mashrookie wrote
I liked my Alphabet soup analogy!
I not only worked with your soup statement Crow, I made sense with it and was able to use it to explain to folks the concept of fractions. We could do a whole post on assigning letters to different alcohols and congeners.

[wv_cooker]

Aw Googe it's all good just didn't want you to think I would snark at anyone. I am the Newb here, But I have learned a lot from this thread. I don't really think there were any epiphany's to be had here EG. I think we all knew that it could be done. Maybe a little impractical as I really don't want to work quite that hard to make Whiskey. I like Odin's method of smearing on a reflux column for now. I am kinda curious as to seeing where his new thread on stacking heads leads us. Some things have been said there to bring a lot of thought to this discussion as well, and maybe the overall thought process of how we make our cuts. I knew when I kicked the Flute a little that I would probably need those boxing gloves I had at the beginning of this thread again. Being a long time fabricator and tinkerer, I will have some type of Flute soon as well, so please don't take it personal. I think we just needed a little understanding of all types of stills and what they actually do. Believe me after spending knight and day reading and studying this hobby and this forum, the parent site and several other places across the internet I have the highest respect for OD for bringing an understanding of commercial rigs down to our level. I think it is up to all of us to carry that knowledge forward and take it to the next level out of respect for Him. I also think if we look at LWTCS's thumpers, OD's Flute the work that MR, Dad300 and many others have done with packing (even Crow I am anxiously waiting on those results ), Myles new work on a pot to a thumper to a packed column, Blonde_Chaps new all in one it's not really hard to see where we are headed. Large commercial distilleries are at a disadvantage, they are held to a bottom line. We are not, we can play and make anything we want and drink better likker than they can make. Damn I said all that and I haven't had a drink, better have one and go to bed!

[Usge]

Guy's from what I see is you are trying to compare Apples to Apples, wouldn't it be more like Apples to Oranges. An 8% wash of 12 gal would yield around 4 gallons in one run on a pot still. The same 8% 12 gal wash would yield right around 1 gal including fores heads and hearts on a reflux column at 95%. That would make Usge's illustration look more like this:

headstails.jpg

wv...I was trying to show the relationship of impurities between the two and how they bleed (or not) relative to a given volume. I felt that might make it easier to see. But, the reality of the runs are just as you say....the higher reflux also gives back less volume overall per given starting wash/mash, etc. That's a given...considering the higher concentration of ethanol as well. So, you are absolutely right about the run volume comparatively as well, and your mods the original would more reflect an actual run on a given "starting" volume of wash.

As far as impurities goes...The impurities..."are" what make up the flavors that when aged on wood will give you "whiskey". My only point was to show a visual difference between bleeding them through the run (which you can "also" do on any still) vs highly compacting them. As well, my 2 cents being...the more shades of color/flavors you have to pick from...the more control you have (IMHO). Trying to rehydrate concentrate to achieve the same thing seems counter intuitive and less control over it (to me) ie., your "early tails" is so compressed it already contains 3 different shades of color smeared into one new one. Making the color gradients for a reflux run even more condensed...only amplifies that. It's a smaller box of key colored crayons...vs the big box with all the in between colors/tints to choose from. That's more the point I was trying to make.

I apologize for interrupting and muddying up the waters again. I'll go back to watching/observing. Back to regularly scheduled programming

[wv_cooker]

Usge you are in no way muddying up the waters your expert explanations and illustrations have been a great help to giving me the understanding that I have now. I hope that many other Newbs like myself have been following along and getting an education as well. We need more discussions such as this with involvement from our more experienced folk such as yourself. If anyone should apologise it would be me for stepping in where a newb doesn't belong. However thank you and EG and MR and so forth for the education. If we had more discussions going on about theory and cuts and so on our hobby becomes much safer for everyone as well. I thank you sir for the education.

[mash rookie]

I am sorry guys but will have to turn my concentration away for awhile. My health must take front seat. I will be spending my time studying a different subject now. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 9&start=24

I started this thread to be a distraction from the Feds and hopefully enlighten a few folks along the way. As a theory thread there were several points I had hoped to discuss and encourage thought.
I think everybody gets the point of fractions in a wash now. Please try it guys. I think you will find it easy and FUN to make good whiskey with a reflux column. Blending is easy!

I like your color chart Usge. No, there will not likely be 26 different fractions like an alphabet. But, a good wash batch distilled with a very efficient still, will provide nice clean separation of fractions. Again, Blending is easy and fun. Try it!

A point I was not able to get to, was the ease of disabling a high efficiency packed column. Increasing vapor speed and reducing reflux ratio can produce product like a pot still. Reducing vapor speed and matching the correct reflux ratio can produce azeotrope alcohol.

One still can do it all. Good luck amigos.

[Sackett]

Man, am I glad sombody pointed me to this thread!!!!!!It makes most things crystal clean now,,sorta.After 29 or so pages,,I dont remember who it was that introduced the alphabet soup analogy but thats the best bit of info I've found on cuts n blending...
It's kinda funny how we can get a notion in our heads,and ignore all information or facts contrary to that notion. Thats what happened to me.In the far distant past , in a land far away ,I'd run a good sized potstill for a guy//// 80 gal. We / he / I made a lot of hooch,and always made cuts pretty much the same way each run.Our washes were always basicaly the same,,so our product was usualy the same.Somehow in reading the 160ish pages of the flute thread i got the notion that a flute wouldmake the seperation of hearts / tails for me,,,all I had to do was watch for falling proof.How'd I think that was right??Oh well after getting cloudy product when I proofed, was directed to this thread,,and wala!!!!Now I kno was smearing tails into the hearts,,and collecting in one big ol jar instead of makin cuts ,, and blending back. Just like usta do with big ol rig in past.
Now off to the shed to throw all that crappy stuff back in boiler , n rerun and make proper cuts.Cant hardly believe how dumb I am sometimes.