Shinners Flute build.

[Mr.Spooky]

do yall think that in between two plates there might be some kind of turbulance as to where the botom plate has no turbulance?

[Kentucky shinner]

The distance from the boiler would be about 10" to the second plate.

The distance on the Magic Flute is nine and a half inches to the bottom plate from the flange.


OD

OD I stand corrected. I went and measured and mine is 15" from the flange to the bottom plate

[Mr.Spooky]

Hey spooky I kinda stole your idea on the thing you made to hold your jar that hangs on the side of you keg, and tried to improve on it.. Here is my jar table.
Tell me what you think... Very easy to build.. I built the frame from scraps I rummaged from my shop
My neighbor owns a restaurant and brought one of the trays. I just built a frame to match it..

man that looks great,,,, and seems so practical! BTW you dident steel it, this is a sharing place

[olddog]

To be honest, I aint too worried about the bottom plate, the rest of the still works fine, I just ignore the bottom plate.


OD

[LWTCS]

If anthing, there would be more turbulance closer to the heat source I would think.

Seems like the liquid flashes instantly,,,,,to the point where there is no liquid in the first place.

[LWTCS]

I just ignore the bottom plate.

That plate is like the kin folk livin under the stair well

[Mr.Spooky]

If anthing, there would be more turbulance closer to the heat source I would think.

Seems like the liquid flashes instantly,,,,,to the point where there is no liquid in the first place.

that makes sence. the world may never know.
spooky

[olddog]

That plate is like the kin folk livin under the stair well

If that bothers you, just don't put a sight glass on that plate.


OD

[LWTCS]

If that bothers you, just don't put a sight glass on that plate.

Kinda like how I turn up the radio so I don't here my front end on my truck clunking

[Kentucky shinner]

That plate is like the kin folk livin under the stair well

If that bothers you, just don't put a sight glass on that plate.


OD

I have to say I am very happy with my column. I just want to understand why the bottom plate does not work.. I just had to change my jar from hearts to tails, when I looked up it had totally stopped running any distillate. The hydrometer was at 90%abv, Temp was 79.7c I cranked up the heat a little shut down what little water that was going to the dephlagmater. When the distillate started running again the ABV had dropped and sure has hell it was tails all you had to do was smell it. Damn I love this thing..

Ya It would not bother me to take the bottom plate out..

[Kentucky shinner]

Ok guys I am doing a run and took a short video of the plates at night. You can really see what is happening inside.. I have packing in the 2" section I call the neck but the bottom plate is still dead... see what you guys think is going on...

Here ya go condensifacator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0C7pflssso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The squeaking you hear in this video is an old pump my neighbor found when he was cleaning out my shop. He asked it I thought I might want, Of course i took it. I was trying it out. It worked great and believe it or not after about an hour it got quite as a church mouse.. Till then I thought it was going to quite at any time.. Hell its a pump with a 1/4 horse motor.. when i fired it up the output would shoot about 12 foot strait up.. it has a 3/4 out put.. so I hooked her the the Hillbilly flute.. worked great once that annoying squeaking stopped...

[condensificator]

Ok guys I am doing a run and took a short video of the plates at night. You can really see what is happening inside.. I have packing in the 2" section I call the neck but the bottom plate is still dead... see what you guys think is going on...

Here ya go condensifacator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0C7pflssso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

damn dude! that is elfing SICK! im'a gonna have to go met me some 4" copper in the morning. i watched it 10 times so far, gonna have to watch it a few more tonight before i rack.

awesome! thanks.

[MashMan]

so back to the lower plate not "working"

I don't get it, if you guys put your column into full reflux, collecting nothing, bottom plate does not work/bubble, then how long does it take for the column to flood ???
If liquid was getting down to the bottom plate it HAS to bubble, so where does all that vapour end up ??? if it is getting down to the bottom plate then re evaporating it is still going to stay in the column.

wtf am I/we missing here???

MM.

[kiwistiller]

How about changing surface tension? the ABV will be changing as you go up the column, with the biggest change in the first 1 or two plates. as the ABV changes, the surface tension will change as well... just a thought.

Guess no one liked this explaination the first time? I'd expect if more heat was applied, this wouldn't be a problem. Isn't that the biggest problem for a seive tray as opposed to a bubble cap tray? you need to throw enough at it to support the plate or it collapses?? I'm trying to find a text book reference for this, maybe our newly aquired physicist will weigh in, but it certainly stands to reason that the higher surface tension in the reflux at the bottom of the column will make it harder to keep bubbling.

To play around with this, lower the surface tension of the fluid by distilling some low wines, observe. Or throw more energy at the problem and see if it goes away.

The only other thing I can think of is a flawed downcomer design from the bottom plate - vapour could be coming up the downcomer, reflux falling through the plate.

[rednose]

Guess no one liked this explaination the first time?

Kiwi, this is the main point on perforated plates, you have all the reasons and when you read back I always said that OD's perforation is to big for this diameter but nobody took it for serious.

I have posted some pics of commercial perforated continious still plates, scale them down and you will have holes of less than 2 mm for a 4 incher.

joe

[kiwistiller]

I can understand why they're at least a little bigger than that because the boundary effect of the hole won't scale quite the same way.. but yeah... I remember you saying that!

So, to a practical solution for these folks hell bent on plated columns - smaller holes needed on the bottom plate to support the low ABV bubbling?

[still crazy]

Ken
Watched your squeaker video
If you carefully look the bottom plate you can see what little reflux your getting there is running down the walls of the column
I still believe your getting a "plume" of gas keeping that plate from working
The bottom plate is acting like a baffle for the upper ones
Next time you run concentrate on a few holes and see if you see liquid spitting upward

[MashMan]

How about changing surface tension? the ABV will be changing as you go up the column, with the biggest change in the first 1 or two plates. as the ABV changes, the surface tension will change as well... just a thought.

So kiwi.......I have wondered about this also......the size of the holes in the plates 1/8"...as well as the clearance around the side of the plate. if I remember correctly kentucky shiner quoted around 1/16" clearance around the plate, that is equivelant to a shitload of 1/8" holes.

Maybe smaller holes in the lower/all plates and seal up clearance around the plates ???

MM.

[rednose]

I can understand why they're at least a little bigger than that because the boundary effect of the hole won't scale quite the same way.. but yeah... I remember you saying that!

So, to a practical solution for these folks hell bent on plated columns - smaller holes needed on the bottom plate to support the low ABV bubbling?

Just imagen that you need holes of 30 % of total superficion (OD's calcs but they are correct), it could be only one hole but would never work, the liquid would just fall down.

You will need holes that support the tension of the fine alcohol liquor so you want to divide the superficial by small holes.

Shit, i would like to explain that in German but....

[rednose]

Than, what haven't been done so far, the to be condensed likker for each plate needs to be stable without outside column cooling.

To make a real plated column you need to eliminate the touch of the column wall, with other words you will need some kind of likker bath like I mentioned in other topics.

Joe

[kiwistiller]

Shit, i would like to explain that in German but....

I get what you're saying, I'm sure anyone who doesn't will pipe up and you can have another go

So kiwi.......I have wondered about this also......the size of the holes in the plates 1/8"...as well as the clearance around the side of the plate. if I remember correctly kentucky shiner quoted around 1/16" clearance around the plate, that is equivelant to a shitload of 1/8" holes.

Maybe smaller holes in the lower/all plates and seal up clearance around the plates ???

Definitely. Would still be interested in seeing KS or someone else for that matter try experimenting with higher ABV (a 40% charge will simulate another plate under the bottom one -then see if it can support bubbling operation. Well, most of a plate. a 55% charge would be ideal but thats getting a bit high for comfort.

[MashMan]

Than, what haven't been done so far, the to be condensed likker for each plate needs to be stable without outside column cooling.

To make a real plated column you need to eliminate the touch of the column wall, with other words you will need some kind of likker bath like I mentioned in other topics.

Joe

So Joe what you are saying is a plate with a ring on it, close to but not touching the column wall slightly higher than your down comber ?

MM.

[still crazy]

So kiwi.......I have wondered about this also......the size of the holes in the plates 1/8"...as well as the clearance around the side of the plate. if I remember correctly kentucky shiner quoted around 1/16" clearance around the plate, that is equivelant to a shitload of 1/8

Area of a 3 7/8" tube is 11.7933sq.in. with 1/16" clearance the plates area would be 11.4159 sq.in.
The difference is .3774 with 1/8" holes having an area of .0123 sq.in. thats equal to 30 3/4 holes

[rednose]

So Joe what you are saying is a plate with a ring on it, close to but not touching the column wall slightly higher than your down comber ?

MM.

Absolutely correct, that's the way to do it.

There is a certain diameter where you don't care too much about that effect, but I think we don't go for that

[MashMan]

So kiwi.......I have wondered about this also......the size of the holes in the plates 1/8"...as well as the clearance around the side of the plate. if I remember correctly kentucky shiner quoted around 1/16" clearance around the plate, that is equivelant to a shitload of 1/8

Area of a 3 7/8" tube is 11.7933sq.in. with 1/16" clearance the plates area would be 11.4159 sq.in.
The difference is .3774 with 1/8" holes having an area of .0123 sq.in. thats equal to 30 3/4 holes

Wasn't the total number of holes somewhere around 30? then add another 30

MM.

[kiwistiller]

So kiwi.......I have wondered about this also......the size of the holes in the plates 1/8"...as well as the clearance around the side of the plate. if I remember correctly kentucky shiner quoted around 1/16" clearance around the plate, that is equivelant to a shitload of 1/8

Area of a 3 7/8" tube is 11.7933sq.in. with 1/16" clearance the plates area would be 11.4159 sq.in.
The difference is .3774 with 1/8" holes having an area of .0123 sq.in. thats equal to 30 3/4 holes

But then there's that boundary effect again - but yes the clearance could cause a big loss of pressure.

Other troubleshooting idea - charge the still with pure water. do all the plates bubble, or do none of the plates bubble?

[MashMan]

[/quote]
Absolutely correct, that's the way to do it.

There is a certain diameter where you don't care too much about that effect, but I think we don't go for that

still-1.jpg

[/quote]

Thanks joe, think I have a plan of attack now.

MM.

[MashMan]

Than, what haven't been done so far, the to be condensed likker for each plate needs to be stable without outside column cooling.

To make a real plated column you need to eliminate the touch of the column wall, with other words you will need some kind of likker bath like I mentioned in other topics.

Joe

So KS, do you reckon you could whip up another bottom plate, same amount of 1/16" holes, with a ring around the outside of it to create a dam so to speak, to contain reflux, close but without it touching the column wall, slightly deeper than your downcomber. and then see if it works/bubbles???

MM.

[Kentucky shinner]

I may work on that just to see if this will help.. You know thing about for me is. I am so totally happy with my flute I really hate to screw with it. But my nature is I just want to understand why it does not work. I find it really odd that OD's bottom plate does not work and he has a 5 plate column. I see the same results but I have a 4 plate column. I really just want to understand what is preventing the bottom plate from working. I also will be happy when someone builds a bubble cap with sight glasses to see what there bottom plate does. Right now we have no proof that a bubble cap bottom plate works on that design either. I am in no hurry to modify my column. That is not to say at some point if we can prove a solution I may. I could not be any happier if I had 10 plates and they all worked. I just want to totally understand. I do think it may have something to do with surface tension on the bottom tray. You could not really see it in the video but I can see product over flowing onto the bottom tray from the downcomer of the plate from above. The space between the tray and the wall is not 1/16". I did state that before but I remove my sight glasses the other day for cleaning and the plates for the most part touch the sides of the column. It was tricky to slide the plate tree into the column during the build. Of course with out having a lathe to make the plates they are not a perfect fit.. Even if we never find out why the bottom plate does not work. I would not hesitate to build another just like what I have, I am that happy with my column.
As these other flute builds come on line maybe we can better understand this.
KS

[Austin Nichols]

I have nothing to add except to say that I am truly inspired, what a great read this thread has been so far.

I will not be building a flute any time soon, I like the feeling of my testicles where they are and I have been threatened a couple of times with my last build.

Cheers.