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Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:22 pm

Canuckwoods wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:17 pm it did not puke.

How do you know it did not puke?.......I see no other reason why the output could or would change colour.

Corn Cracker wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:51 pm My ph dropped on my first round to the high 4s and dropped even more on the 2nd down to 3.3 and took 2 weeks to get the sg to 0, i added baking soda after i mixed up the 3rd yesterday, it foamed up and almost over the edge but that got the ph up to 4.8 so i left it there. Can't help with the egg smell, all i got was the sour smell

I don't know why you blokes fuss so much over ph and such.
I've had the same UJSSM running generation after generation for ten years and don't even own a PH meter.
If its fermenting to slow don't use so much backset next time........if it's going faster than you want add more backset to the next generation.
Why make something so simple so hard.

I'm only adding 1gallon instead of 1-¼ already. Not trying to make it difficult, just trying to get it ferment in less than 2 weeks like UJ.

Mixed up the 4th gen of this recipe last night. Kinda fun on how fast the yeast takes off in this recipe. Added the sugar and backset mix, added yeast and some nutrient, put the lid on it, before I set it to the floor it was bubbling.

Gotta get better at the cuts step.

rcazparts wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:21 am Added the sugar and backset mix, added yeast and some nutrient, put the lid on it, before I set it to the floor it was bubbling.

Don't really need to add yeast after the initial generation. There is plenty of yeast in the reused corn assuming you don't wait to long between generations and allow it to dry and add too hot of water. Not that it hurts to add more, but just negates one of the advantages of this recipe, only paying for yeast once.

As above, the whole point of this is that you don't add yeast after the first ferment.

I missed that point. I will try it next round.

Just put my 3rd gen on oak. wanted to put oak in at 60% and had already mixed water with it. Now it is almost filling my jar. Does there need to be much gap at the top of the jar when in oak? I don't really want to put just a bit into another jar, but i would if i had to.

Pour some in your glass rest in bottle with oak. I dont hate it white.. or fill it to brim with spirit & oak. Open once-twice a month for few hours st a time(dont forget it for 3 days).

Ageing benefits from some O2, so if you are ageing in glass, leave some headroom. I fill to 2/3rds maximum and don't jam the cork in so hard that it can't breath a little bit.

NZChris wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:02 pm Ageing benefits from some O2, so if you are ageing in glass, leave some headroom. I fill to 2/3rds maximum and don't jam the cork in so hard that it can't breath a little bit.

So i could put it in a larger jar, is there an issue with too much head room? Going from a 1.25l jar to a 2.25l jar so the larger jar will have lots of head room.

I've never noticed any issues. I emptied a six year old jar yesterday that was down to about a fifth full. It was fine. The wood was put into a jar of rum made about the same time.

I have a few noobie questions that I was hoping someone wouldn't mind answering.

I have combined a lot of the input from this original thread ( Which, not complaining, but at so many pages in, does get off subject from time to time ) as well as the Second UJSSM thread where someone tried to 'simplify' some of the questions/steps ( Which got a lot of flack from people for being a separate thread, but I actually found some answers / the way some things were explained 'clicked' better with me in that thread. )

Backset: This is what makes a sour mash. Re-using the backset. Just to verify this for the 100th time, When I run, For Example, 10 Gallons of this recipe, and I run it from heads to hearts to tails down to 20-40% and pull the heat from the still and stop running it, what is left inside the still itself is this backset, and we are re-using it in place of some of the 'replacement' water going back into the fermenter for the next fermentation process, correct?

And a rule said use at least 25% - So if I'm running 10 gallons of water, I want to run at least 2.5 Gallons of Backset each time I start a new round of UJSSM fermentation, correct? For it to be a legitimate sour mash.

I have a follow-up question on Heads / Hearts / Tails that I will post this evening when I get home.

I am SO close to having my still finished and all of my supplies to start my UJSSM and am so excited to be a member here.

Thanks everyone!

You are correct about backset. The percentage can vary though. And since backset is acidic, it is a good idea to use some oyster shell to help buffer the ph.

Correct about the backset, however I think that less backset is better, if you use less you dont need any shells.
Ive done many many generations of UJ, Constant Generations and the same yeast pitched about 10 years ago.
As generations go by adjust the amount of Backset you use......If the fements seem to be slowing, then use less backset on the next generation.
I find sticking to 4 L in a 28-30 L ferment to be about right.
I'll let you sort the Litres to Gal conversions.
For what its worth 25% dunder in a 30 L wash would be 7.5 L...way to much......it wouldnt be a happy ferment after just a few generations imo.

Morning! Well after working a 10 hour day my brother and I were up until almost midnight soldering our copper fittings and pipe sections for the first time to create our cross-over pipe and is removable via unions that runs from the still to the thumper. Fired it up with water just to check for any leaks and let it steam out hot water for an hour. There wasn't a single leak which is outstanding. Not bad for soldering copper first time ever haha. The few pieces I need to make the final crossover pipe from the thump to the condenser should be showing up today, but with overtime likely, I don't think we'll have a chance to work on that until the weekend.

Back on topic!

Thanks Saltbush Bill and Subbrew!

I understand what you are saying, and clearly what you're saying makes sense. The original recipe though calls to reuse 25%.

At 30Liters of Mash to 4Liters of Backset is 7.5%? I guess the amount of backset doesn't really make a difference in considering a repeat mash being a Sour mash so long as you DO continue to replace some of the mash water with Backset prior to fermentation?

I guess i'm confused on how the second fermentation run discussed in the first thread post for this recipe is using 25% backset, which is then to be a repeat mash bill you can run over and over, but the two of you agree that 25% is actually way too much backset?

Should I use 25% in the FIRST 'second' fermentation to make a sour mash, and then when it comes to fermenting rounds 3,4,5,6,7,8 etc. etc. reduce it from 25% to like 20% then down to 15% and taper off somewhere around 8-10% of backset? Not trying to beat a dead horse. Just trying to understand why 25% backset is recommended in the initial recipe, but seems to be understood is too much to use in the repetitive process of this mash.

And as far as my second question of making sure I fully understand the concept of running this recipe:

Heads / Tails / Hearts:

I understand that the initial run of this recipe is only a neutral spirit. Meaning if you wanted to keep a jar or two from the hearts as something to drink, you can, but that it is not until the second run where you add back in backset to the mash bill that it becomes a sour mash.

So here is my question about the heads / hearts / tails:

Starting on the Second run, which is the first run of this recipe being an actual 'sour mash', you can start collecting jars to keep. Recommendation is to keep the heart product, alcohol in the 80-60% range.

So when people talk about collecting the heads and tails to run together, we are NEVER using these heads and tails actually in the mash bill, Nor do we ever use it in conjunction with mash in the main pot, correct? We just collect these heads and tails until we have enough ( 5-10 gallons worth - using a 15 gallon beer keg as primary still ) and simply run them thru the still by themselves, correct?

And these runs seem to produce more alcohol you can keep since you're just refining existing alcohol into a better content is what I understand.

I'll just be honest when I say that my 'brain' seems to 'click' different than an average person. So by asking everyone here questions that I have basically already read answers to, by asking them in the way I'm trying to explain makes it easier for me to comprehend. I'm also trying to slow my self down because of how excited I am to jump into the process of running shine. We have spent the last 4 months in our spare time building this all-in-one still setup and acquiring all the necessary items... so now i'm trying to force my self to slow down a bit to make sure I've ran this thru my head enough to feel comfortable in the overall process.... which I know a lot of this will only truly be learned by f*cking up our first attempt to run an actual mash thru the still.

I'll be compiling all of my questions and answers into a notebook for my self that breaks this down for the simple person to wrap their head around... when I get comfortable with everything maybe I'll throw it online here for others.

Thanks again for those who are taking time to read this and respond.

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:41 am Back on topic!

Thanks Saltbush Bill and Subbrew!

I understand what you are saying, and clearly what you're saying makes sense. The original recipe though calls to reuse 25%.

At 30Liters of Mash to 4Liters of Backset is 7.5%? I guess the amount of backset doesn't really make a difference in considering a repeat mash being a Sour mash so long as you DO continue to replace some of the mash water with Backset prior to fermentation?

I guess i'm confused on how the second fermentation run discussed in the first thread post for this recipe is using 25% backset, which is then to be a repeat mash bill you can run over and over, but the two of you agree that 25% is actually way too much backset?

You'll have a certain learning curve here. I've done 25% of backset in the past, I found out that :
1- the taste was gradually going into something I disliked, and that is very personal preference, for the resulting spirit when I used 25-30% of backset;
2- The fermentation did slowed down drastically over the generations when I added 25-30% of backset.

So Basically I started over a new batch of UJSSM from scratch, the second generation I added the 25% backset to have a real sour mash. The the latter gens I've reduced the amount of backset to roughly 10%, so the taste stays in a level that I do like, and the yeast seems happy. It takes roughly 15-18 days to ferment dry. (25L bucket)
I repitched yeast once to help, and I never looked the Ph yet. I'm curious so I will check the Ph and I may try the oyster shells to seek for an improvement... But I don't really need to, the amount of spirit created continuously overcomes my need, I have to give some to my co-workers every week
Have fun!
Regards

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:41 am At 30Liters of Mash to 4Liters of Backset is 7.5%?

13.3%.

NormandieStill wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 8:38 am

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:41 am At 30Liters of Mash to 4Liters of Backset is 7.5%?

13.3%.

Appreciate the correction. Guess I divided backwards. Tuesdays.

Evil_Dark wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:10 am

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:41 am Back on topic!

Thanks Saltbush Bill and Subbrew!

I understand what you are saying, and clearly what you're saying makes sense. The original recipe though calls to reuse 25%.

At 30Liters of Mash to 4Liters of Backset is 7.5%? I guess the amount of backset doesn't really make a difference in considering a repeat mash being a Sour mash so long as you DO continue to replace some of the mash water with Backset prior to fermentation?

I guess i'm confused on how the second fermentation run discussed in the first thread post for this recipe is using 25% backset, which is then to be a repeat mash bill you can run over and over, but the two of you agree that 25% is actually way too much backset?

You'll have a certain learning curve here. I've done 25% of backset in the past, I found out that :
1- the taste was gradually going into something I disliked, and that is very personal preference, for the resulting spirit when I used 25-30% of backset;
2- The fermentation did slowed down drastically over the generations when I added 25-30% of backset.

So Basically I started over a new batch of UJSSM from scratch, the second generation I added the 25% backset to have a real sour mash. The the latter gens I've reduced the amount of backset to roughly 10%, so the taste stays in a level that I do like, and the yeast seems happy. It takes roughly 15-18 days to ferment dry. (25L bucket)
I repitched yeast once to help, and I never looked the Ph yet. I'm curious so I will check the Ph and I may try the oyster shells to seek for an improvement... But I don't really need to, the amount of spirit created continuously overcomes my need, I have to give some to my co-workers every week
Have fun!
Regards

Evil_Dark: This was a Very Helpful response! Thank you!

I do have a question about what you said regarding fermentation time. You said 15-18 days Dry.

Can you define what you mean by that? Others who are doing the UJSSM recipe seem to say that it can Ferment in 4-6 days. Is that only the first time when you add the yeast? And the other times it takes longer because you're not adding yeast back in?

Thanks!

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:19 am Evil_Dark: This was a Very Helpful response! Thank you!

I do have a question about what you said regarding fermentation time. You said 15-18 days Dry.

Can you define what you mean by that? Others who are doing the UJSSM recipe seem to say that it can Ferment in 4-6 days. Is that only the first time when you add the yeast? And the other times it takes longer because you're not adding yeast back in?

Thanks!

Fermenting "DRY" means that there is no more sugars left to be converted by the yeast, another way to say that the yeast has finished their activity. You can say that a ferment is now "dry" when it maykes one or two days that the specific gravity has stopped to drop. Usually it is around 1.000 or even lower, but sometimes there is some things dissolved in the solution that can't be converted by the yeast and the gravity stays higher than 1.000

The duration of the fermentation can vary. My first UJSSM batch was completely fermented in 4 days. The newer batches that I started over were more around 6 days... Fermentation temperature have a huge impact on the yeast activity. The type of yeast used can also make a difference, water quality too... So it can vary from person to person.

I already re-pitched yeast on a next generation, and the airlock has worked more intense the first two days, but it still took more time than the first generation to get totally done. You may have to re-pitch if you kill the yeast by adding a hot backset or too hot water to the next generation...

Regards

Evil_Dark wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:59 am

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:19 am Evil_Dark: This was a Very Helpful response! Thank you!

I do have a question about what you said regarding fermentation time. You said 15-18 days Dry.

Can you define what you mean by that? Others who are doing the UJSSM recipe seem to say that it can Ferment in 4-6 days. Is that only the first time when you add the yeast? And the other times it takes longer because you're not adding yeast back in?

Thanks!

Fermenting "DRY" means that there is no more sugars left to be converted by the yeast, another way to say that the yeast has finished their activity. You can say that a ferment is now "dry" when it maykes one or two days that the specific gravity has stopped to drop. Usually it is around 1.000 or even lower, but sometimes there is some things dissolved in the solution that can't be converted by the yeast and the gravity stays higher than 1.000

The duration of the fermentation can vary. My first UJSSM batch was completely fermented in 4 days. The newer batches that I started over were more around 6 days... Fermentation temperature have a huge impact on the yeast activity. The type of yeast used can also make a difference, water quality too... So it can vary from person to person.

I already re-pitched yeast on a next generation, and the airlock has worked more intense the first two days, but it still took more time than the first generation to get totally done. You may have to re-pitch if you kill the yeast by adding a hot backset or too hot water to the next generation...

Regards

Once again, extremely useful.

I will be able to put together a complete 'breakdown' binder for my brother and I to use based on all the help on this forum.

If anyone cares to chime in to my question above about heads / hearts / tails I would be very appreciative. I'm just looking for confirmation primarily on how I understand making use of the heads and tails.

Thank you again everyone. I will be posting our build on the build forum soon as we are near completion.

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 1:15 pm
Once again, extremely useful.

I will be able to put together a complete 'breakdown' binder for my brother and I to use based on all the help on this forum.

If anyone cares to chime in to my question above about heads / hearts / tails I would be very appreciative. I'm just looking for confirmation primarily on how I understand making use of the heads and tails.

Thank you again everyone. I will be posting our build on the build forum soon as we are near completion.

The heads and tails don't go in the ferment / mash.
They are "feints" that can be added to the boiler when you'll run the ferment. Tails are better IMHO, heads are collected apart and runned in a separate run with my column to make neutral spirit. The tails have nice flavors that are a nice addition to the run. Up to you on how much tails you want to collect and add to the next run!

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:01 am
So when people talk about collecting the heads and tails to run together, we are NEVER using these heads and tails actually in the mash bill, Nor do we ever use it in conjunction with mash in the main pot, correct? We just collect these heads and tails until we have enough ( 5-10 gallons worth - using a 15 gallon beer keg as primary still ) and simply run them thru the still by themselves, correct?

My understanding is that you never run more then 40%ABV in the boiler. So you would not run 5 to 10 gallons of just heads/tails. You need to dilute it with water to below 40%ABV before running it. Or add it in to a run by mixing it into the boiler when you add a completed fermentation into your boiler making sure the combined ABV is below 40%. The heads/tails only ever get added into the boiler not the fermenter. Please note I've yet to run any alcohol and this if my understanding of the reading I've done. Don't take this as correct until someone with experience chimes in. I will delete if it's incorrect.

Evil_Dark wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:59 am The duration of the fermentation can vary. My first UJSSM batch was completely fermented in 4 days. The newer batches that I started over were more around 6 days... Fermentation temperature have a huge impact on the yeast activity.

Temp and the amount of backset used will make a lot of difference to how long they take to ferment out fully. An average for mine after many many generations would be 8-14 days depending on time of year Summer / Winter.
I would only expect it to finish in 4 to 6 days on the very first couple of ferments.

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 1:15 pm I'm just looking for confirmation primarily on how I understand making use of the heads and tails.

The heads and tails from the previous Run can be added back to the next spirit Run with the low wines or wash.....depending on how you choose to do it. Or they can be kept for an "Fients" run where they are run on their own after diluting to 40% abv or less.

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 1:15 pm If anyone cares to chime in to my question above about heads / hearts / tails I would be very appreciative. I'm just looking for confirmation primarily on how I understand making use of the heads and tails.

There are plenty of threads on recycling heads and tails. When looking far answers, make sure that you are reading advice for the type of still you are running. What feints are useful for can depend on your still type and how you select your cuts, so what works for one distiller may not work for another. Some here say they can recycle their feints back into their washes indefinitely, but I can't.

NZChris wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 3:35 pmSome here say they can recycle their feints back into their washes indefinitely, but I can't.

I agree. Tried it a few times. For me, i just save them up for all feints reflux run. More productive imho. Besides, i normally have more than enough to charge the boiler with low wines.

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:01 am

I understand that the initial run of this recipe is only a neutral spirit. Meaning if you wanted to keep a jar or two from the hearts as something to drink, you can, but that it is not until the second run where you add back in backset to the mash bill that it becomes a sour mash.

It is true the first run is not a sour mash, but it is not neutral either unless you are really refluxing it. I run a bit in middle slow and keep it for white dog as the corn flavor is fine for me. Is the next generation better? May be, more complex but I still really like that simple field corn flavor of gen one. In either case, other than a bit saved for white dog the rest goes into the can for the spirit run. So generation 1, 2 and 3 all provided low wines for the spirit run. same with generations 4, 5 and 6, for the second spirit run.

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:01 am
Starting on the Second run, which is the first run of this recipe being an actual 'sour mash', you can start collecting jars to keep. Recommendation is to keep the heart product, alcohol in the 80-60% range.

So when people talk about collecting the heads and tails to run together, we are NEVER using these heads and tails actually in the mash bill, Nor do we ever use it in conjunction with mash in the main pot, correct? We just collect these heads and tails until we have enough ( 5-10 gallons worth - using a 15 gallon beer keg as primary still ) and simply run them thru the still by themselves, correct?

And these runs seem to produce more alcohol you can keep since you're just refining existing alcohol into a better content is what I understand.

If you are doing a spirit run, i.e. want to do cuts then collect into small jars and determine the hearts by the smell and taste, don't worry about abv. I suspect if you are running an 8% mash and getting 80% off the spout, you are still in heads. and if you are stopping at 60^ you are missing a lot of good ethanol and flavor below 60%. But go by smell and taste.

As far as collecting heads and tails it partly depends on cuts. High heads, the first off the still, has a very acetone, chemical smell that I don't like and I don't want in a future product so I use them to light the wood stove. Lower heads and tails I keep in a keg to eventually try to get a fairly neutral spirit when I get my reflux column finished. Many people put the tails into the next run of the same or similar recipes to boost yield. Seems like a good idea especially if you are doing multiple stripping runs of a batch, why not get a bit more on the next stripping run. But I have not tried it.

Shine_Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:01 am Starting on the Second run, which is the first run of this recipe being an actual 'sour mash', you can start collecting jars to keep. Recommendation is to keep the heart product, alcohol in the 80-60% range.

As above, dont worry about ABV, that is not the way to make good cuts , or to decide what to keep, taste and smell are your friends here.
There is nothing wrong with keeping the heart cut from the first gen, it wont be completely flavourless.
Keep some as whitedog, maybe oak some, start the learning curve to see what you like best.
If nothing else put a sample of both oaked and unoaked aside.....in 12 months time compare them to what you are making then, you will be surprised at what has happened in that time.

If it's your first run and your likker jars are empty, there is nothing wrong with first generation UJSSM as long as you didn't stuff up selecting the heart cut.

Just a quick update: I wanted to thank everyone for chiming in with answers to my questions to try to help simplify some of this for me.

Last night we finished bending and getting all of the fittings we needed and unions to get the still in line to the thumper, from the thumper over to the condenser... so tonight we plan to solder the few remaining fittings and do a test run with water to check for leaks.

Then I can tear down the stand and everything and get it painted... plan is to have Everything completed by the end of this month so we can start running Mash in June.