uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

[MooseMan]

Just to add to the conversation PoolGuy, what I've done the last twice as it works well for me, is 2 strips run right down to 10% off the spout, then a spirit run with those 2 strips and the feints from the last run added. This gives me a decent boiler charge and lots of flavour.

I then do exactly what TwoSheds suggested to you, take the very cleanest middle hearts cut for white dog, and blend what I want to keep either side of that for aging in glass with oak staves.

[Saltbush Bill]

Mine has mostly been single run through 4 plates.
At times only 3 plates, and at other times a combination of wash and low wines.
All give a slightly different outcome, none are wrong.
By not using your deflegmator you can also use your column as a pot.
Try it all, see what you like.

[Alzahra888]

Fellow sour mashers, Welcome to 2024! As you all well know this thread began in 2005 and next year will be twenty years on. This thread has been as exciting for me to read and live vicariously because you have shared in this endeavor in such a way that made me remark to my adult children yesterday that this is one of the most scientific communities I have ever participated in—and they have been quite a few. This dedication to experience and experiment, chronicling with patience and humility, for the sake of pushing the bar and helping others reach their own potential, which gets refluxed back into the mix makes for a sublime eau-de-vie.

I have jumped ahead of myself to arrive at this latest entry in the forum—cheating the line of my readings. I’ve only read the first third of these 4777 entries, 2005 through 2012. Seven years down and 11 to go. I’ve seen the master present his thesis and defend, reconsider and respond generously to the many followers, revisiting the forum after long bouts of absence but catching up with subsequent generations and their interests in probing this basic recipe and generating new offshoots and avenues.

I was wondering if it could serve new generations to characterize the trends that have taken shape in these discussions and get the older guys to season their longstanding participation with a retrospective that takes a long view of the thread. A web of wieghts and values could be mapped for practices that have received a multiplicity of preferences and approaches, from stylized uses of backset, to ways of addressing flavor, from the growing use of plates, to the persistence and glory of standard pot still distilling, to the most advanced methods of each for the sake of drawing from tried and true variations and asking more about processes that require great expertise. I can’t recall if it was Uncle Jesse or Odin who mentioned in these pages somewhere the great skill required of running a single distillation.

Maybe these thoughts and questions will seem banal to me once I get through the final 3,100 some odd posts

Edit: : but to be clear, the exchanges themselves are at once a pleasure and an honor to share in.

[Lblamboy]

Running my first-ever "second Generation" of UJSSM as I type this...and WOW...

I fermented it with 40% backset from an all-grain stripping run (I haven't even run the 1st Gen UJSSM yet, but wanted to get started on the second gen ferment), and I also added another liter of feints from an AG run to the charge...the combo of the sour mashing of gen 2 corn, the backset from an AG run, and AG feints is tasting AWESOME already, right off the still, even at 140 proof!

The only curious things so far are that:
1) my still ran SO much faster on a warm day vs normal winter runs...I scrambled when it was boiling sooner than I ever expected and I still didn't have the condenser on...and even then I could barely dial down the forge enough to run it even reasonably close to my usual speeds...I'll definitely have to re-jigger my startup routine for warm days!
2) somehow my hearts also started WAY sooner than usual...caught me totally by surprise, and I ended up getting a fair bit of my hearts into my Head container...derp. I wonder if the backet/feints/sour mashing may have contributed to moving the hearts up in the run so much more than I've generally experienced with AG runs?! Or maybe it's because it's warm and the still is just running faster than usual that I'm getting more tails sooner than usual?!?

All I know is that if this keeps getting better with Gen 3 and 4, and I can pay more attention to not lose hearts into my head container, I may have to just ditch AG runs altogether!

[acfixer69]

Running my first-ever "second Generation" of UJSSM as I type this...and WOW...

I fermented it with 40% backset from an all-grain stripping run (I haven't even run the 1st Gen UJSSM yet, but wanted to get started on the second gen ferment), and I also added another liter of feints from an AG run to the charge...the combo of the sour mashing of gen 2 corn, the backset from an AG run, and AG feints is tasting AWESOME already, right off the still, even at 140 proof!

The only curious things so far are that:
1) my still ran SO much faster on a warm day vs normal winter runs...I scrambled when it was boiling sooner than I ever expected and I still didn't have the condenser on...and even then I could barely dial down the forge enough to run it even reasonably close to my usual speeds...I'll definitely have to re-jigger my startup routine for warm days!
2) somehow my hearts also started WAY sooner than usual...caught me totally by surprise, and I ended up getting a fair bit of my hearts into my Head container...derp. I wonder if the backet/feints/sour mashing may have contributed to moving the hearts up in the run so much more than I've generally experienced with AG runs?! Or maybe it's because it's warm and the still is just running faster than usual that I'm getting more tails sooner than usual?!?
Spam
All I know is that if this keeps getting better with Gen 3 and 4, and I can pay more attention to not lose hearts into my head container, I may have to just ditch AG runs altogether!

This post really nothing to do with the UJSSM thread.

[Lblamboy]

Really!? I thought it was all about UJSSM

I am running a batch now that is tasting great, noticeably better than prior attempts, even just in gen 2, and I mentioned my surprise at how quickly the boiler got to temp and how quickly I got into hearts, openly wondering if others have had similar experience when using backset and feints on non gen 1 runs…seems like a “normal” kind of UJSSM question to me - but if I should direct the inquiry elsewhere, pls lmk where.

[Down_Home52]

This website is my distilling bible. Huge help during my journey to produce a heavy peated Scotch and and AG bourbon using corn, barley and rye. I have learned that simplicity is king and scale of operation is my biggest limitation to putting up significant quantities of spirit. Having said all that I am ready to try UJSM. My experience with anything I added cane sugar to was a harsh taste with a bite. The AG white dog was super smooth but it just takes so much effort to gather very little product on a 7 gallon run. Two questions before starting my UJSM:

Would Corn sugar make any difference at all around the bite?

Does cornmeal make any sense at all as a substitute for cracked corn?

I am running a simple pot still, 10 gallon, and will be using the USJM ingredient schedule exactly just ramped up to 7 gallons. I am just looking for a spirit that I can enjoy both aged and right off the worm.

[Stout8174asheNC]

Stout8174 here. Reading and learning. Gonna try my 2nd attempt tomorrow. Sweet feed,corn, mash. Of course sugar&yeast. Day 5. All looks. Smells. Taste. Just right. It’s telling me let’s get her done. Lol.
Fingers crossed. Lil ol 3 gallon batch.

[subbrew]

This website is my distilling bible. Huge help during my journey to produce a heavy peated Scotch and and AG bourbon using corn, barley and rye. I have learned that simplicity is king and scale of operation is my biggest limitation to putting up significant quantities of spirit. Having said all that I am ready to try UJSM. My experience with anything I added cane sugar to was a harsh taste with a bite. The AG white dog was super smooth but it just takes so much effort to gather very little product on a 7 gallon run. Two questions before starting my UJSM:

Would Corn sugar make any difference at all around the bite?

Does cornmeal make any sense at all as a substitute for cracked corn?

I am running a simple pot still, 10 gallon, and will be using the USJM ingredient schedule exactly just ramped up to 7 gallons. I am just looking for a spirit that I can enjoy both aged and right off the worm.

I don't think corn meal would work as well. I think the corn meal might settle and compact on the bottom. It would also be more of a slurry when it came time to scoop some out and add fresh.

Not sure about the corn sugar. That is what all grain is providing so perhaps it would.

Recommend finding a 30 or 55 gal food grade barrel and start doing large batch mashing. Then you can mash enough to give 24 or so gallons to give about 7 or 8 gallons of low wines after three stripping runs (slow at first to avoid puke). That would give over 1.5 gal of ageing spirit, enough to start building up some stock.

[Alzahra888]

SBB in his Rum recipe writes:
“I sometimes single run this wash through 4 plates, other times I strip a wash or two and then mix them 1/3 strip to 2/3 wash. Both ways give good results.”

Just curious how a pot still strip might be rerun with wash and what ratios people might use.

After ten generations i had to restart since a table leg broke and i ended up with 100 liters of sugar and corn all across my basement. That was fun.

My fermenter generates two still runs and i was thinking instead of my usual running two strips then a spirit run getting only sweet output (i had no extra backset saved—but i do have tails) i would strip once then combine my tails and rerun with the rest of the wash added to the run and thereby expediting an empty fermenter and getting some backset for my next fermentation. I know people mix wash and such but still i wanted to share this experience and get any pointers.

[subbrew]

Many people do what we call a 1.5 run, which is low wines mixed with fresh wash. The theory is this gives more flavor. As for the proportions that will depend on the ABV of the low wines. Remember that a lower still charge leads to lower ABV off the still. If still charge ABV did not matter than you could do a single pot still run and get the same results as a strip and spirit run routine.

I personally like to keep my spirit run ABV at least 25%. On my system that gives me a final blend after cuts very near 60% which is what I like for aging. I don't see a bit difference from 25% up to 33% or so, although by 33% I will be in the mid 60s and may have to dilute a bit for aging ABV. From 33 up to 40 my final blend will be upper 60s and I will have to dilute to get to aging strength. 30% seems to be the sweet spot which will give me 62 or 63 ABV product to age with no dilution. Your still and how you run will factor into that of course so my numbers should only be guidelines.

So if you have 40% abv low wines and want 30% for your still charge you would have to add 1 part fresh mash to 3 parts low wines. That is not quite right as the fresh wash is not 0% alcohol. But probably close enough for a 6% wash. If you have a 10% wash you can do the math to get more exact.

[Alzahra888]

Many people do what we call a 1.5 run, which is low wines mixed with fresh wash. The theory is this gives more flavor. As for the proportions that will depend on the ABV of the low wines. Remember that a lower still charge leads to lower ABV off the still. If still charge ABV did not matter than you could do a single pot still run and get the same results as a strip and spirit run routine.

I personally like to keep my spirit run ABV at least 25%. On my system that gives me a final blend after cuts very near 60% which is what I like for aging. I don't see a bit difference from 25% up to 33% or so, although by 33% I will be in the mid 60s and may have to dilute a bit for aging ABV. From 33 up to 40 my final blend will be upper 60s and I will have to dilute to get to aging strength. 30% seems to be the sweet spot which will give me 62 or 63 ABV product to age with no dilution. Your still and how you run will factor into that of course so my numbers should only be guidelines.

So if you have 40% abv low wines and want 30% for your still charge you would have to add 1 part fresh mash to 3 parts low wines. That is not quite right as the fresh wash is not 0% alcohol. But probably close enough for a 6% wash. If you have a 10% wash you can do the math to get more exact.

This is helpful. Just what i was hoping to confirm. Thanks for the input Subbrew

[tag1260]

Ok. Started a new batch, gen 1, and after 3 days it has a vinegar taste. Looks good though. Do not have access to my hydro readings at this minte but what could be my problem?

5 gal water
8 lb corn
8 lb. Sugar
1 tablespoon distillers yeast

Thanks

[subbrew]

My guess is you are just tasting the sour of the mash. To actually have vinegar would need an aceto bacteria infection and much more time than three days.

The fact it is sour means the yeast have done thier job and consumed most of the sugar.

[JustinNZ]

Just bottled some one-year-old, standard, 5-generations UJSSM aged on charred French oak (dominoes) at an initial 60%abv at the rate of 10g per Litre.

I used French oak out of curiousity. Some say it creates a sweeter spirit, others a drier or spicier spirit. I’m doing the same with an SBB Rum cos I suspect the fusion of the spirit and oak is different if you use a different spirit.

Anyway, compared to my other same-age, same-oaking-rate UJSSM this French one is definitely drier. Smells wonderful. I’m no tastologist but this one has a hint of raw pastry dough sprinkled with unsweetened cinnamon.

And it has the ‘needs more time’ dry oaky character I get from a rum aged at a higher abv (65%+) or a rum aged on used bourbon dominoes.

So I’m putting a couple of gallons away for another year.

Love this hobby.

[oplosan]

Just started my first batch of UJSSM -- ~3kg cracked corn, 3kg sugar, ~16 liters water

There is one minor thing I worry about -- if there's any remaining alcohol in the backset, does this inhibit yeast growth? Or should I not worry about that?

I plan on running my first run until my still's vapors are ~98*c and plan on using a backset:water ratio of 1:3, painting in broad strokes, this should make the mash''s starting ABV ~1%. I will be using bread yeast as that's all I have on hand, which in my experience can ferment between 9 and 12% ABV pretty reliably.

I understand from minor research that it's recommended to add all the low wines I collect to the 2nd generation's stripping run.

So, some questions on my mind?

1. Is there any benefit to add heads/tails to future generation's stripping runs?
2. How far should I collect into tails for future stripping runs?
3. Should I be more concerned about collecting a lot of tails to (a) lower the ABV or (b) get flavorful feints for future blending or maybe an all feints run?

I'm sorry if these have been asked before, 160 pages are a lot to dig through and I couldn't find answers due to weak Google-fu. Until now I've been making sugarheads, gins, and brandies which were pretty easy to figure out. If it matters, I use a pot still with a worm. Any guidance would be well appreciated.

[Steve Broady]

Just started my first batch of UJSSM -- ~3kg cracked corn, 3kg sugar, ~16 liters water

There is one minor thing I worry about -- if there's any remaining alcohol in the backset, does this inhibit yeast growth? Or should I not worry about that?

Think about it this way. As soon as fermentation starts, the yeast are in an alcoholic environment. So obviously they can handle SOME alcohol. If your backset (do you mean trub?) is that high proof, then you screwed up and left way too much in it during a striping run.

I plan on running my first run until my still's vapors are ~98*c and plan on using a backset:water ratio of 1:3, painting in broad strokes, this should make the mash''s starting ABV ~1%. I will be using bread yeast as that's all I have on hand, which in my experience can ferment between 9 and 12% ABV pretty reliably.

I understand from minor research that it's recommended to add all the low wines I collect to the 2nd generation's stripping run.

So, some questions on my mind?

1. Is there any benefit to add heads/tails to future generation's stripping runs?
I typically add them to future spirit runs, but to each their own. Might as well get as much out of it as I can. I make a foreshots cut, then pretty much everything else is either hearts cut or recycled into the next batch.
2. How far should I collect into tails for future stripping runs?
I strip pretty much down to 0% or close to it. Sometimes I strip the super low tails separately to put into the next stripping run.
3. Should I be more concerned about collecting a lot of tails to (a) lower the ABV or (b) get flavorful feints for future blending or maybe an all feints run?
I like to shoot for 30% ABV low wines. That usually makes a good barrel proof after a hearts cut with my equipment and my preferences. If I have anything after that, I sometimes save it separately to add to the next stripping run. If I stop higher than that, it means I’m leaving too much alcohol and flavor behind. But that’s just my preference.

I'm sorry if these have been asked before, 160 pages are a lot to dig through and I couldn't find answers due to weak Google-fu. Until now I've been making sugarheads, gins, and brandies which were pretty easy to figure out. If it matters, I use a pot still with a worm. Any guidance would be well appreciated.

[6 Row Joe]

Oh my is this good. A 5 gallon batch of UJSSM. I added 2# of flaked rye and 1# of chocolate malt all in hops bags. Just for flavor of course. Add distillers yeast and strip pot distill when it's done. Spirit run and barrel it at 115p. I prefer Badmo and I bottled it at about 1 year. This was medium toast with #3 char. Damn is it delicious. I shared it with a friend and he was wowed! Here's a 200ml. sample bottle I shared at a car show. Creamy, sweet, spicy, nice toasted oak mid to late palate and the chocolate starts from the nose and sticks around for a long time after the finish. It would make a dandy desert sipper! Cheers.

[Dirksy]

Hello
I am working on my 3rd generation of this recipe (Following instructions closely) and after removing spent corn and adding new corn and sugar my fermentation was very short and it has a white creamy goop settling in with the spent corn. It also has a bit of a skunky smell......Can any one tell me what is happening???

[PoolGuy]

I am no pro here. Novice at best. But I am on generation 12 of this "sourdough" sorta recipe. White creamy goop, along with your backset, is your "sourdough" magic. Mix the goop back into your new generation using proportions that seem appropriate. I would think it is loaded with yeast and nutrients waiting for some yummy shuggga'.