Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

[Saltbush Bill]

If your still is what i think it is you dont need and should never use a needle valve on it
If you did you would be creating a bomb
Product flow from a CM is controlled purely by cooling management.

[Stonecutter]

I hear ya there.

1B576593-C1A4-4F24-B375-AF7DD487D00D.jpeg

My column is rather short though (20”/50 cm from boiler top to bottom of reflux chamber) and being that I’m already going to stuff some copper mesh inside, I’m not going to have a ton of room for the marbles thus affecting my HETP’s. Also, as has been discussed here ad nauseam, every still and every operator runs differently so in the end the results are subjective to a degree.

[Saltbush Bill]

Probably better to start a new topic elsewhere, this is getting way off topic.

[Stonecutter]

Rad started this topic to investigate marbles as reflux packing.
I noticed that no one had used etched marbles and I’d like to do my own side by side experiment. Albeit on a smaller scale. I can only benefit from what I learn. Saltbush with all due respect you asked me about my still so I answered.

[Saltbush Bill]

Saltbush with all due respect you asked me about my still so I answered.

I meant if further discussion on needle valves and how reflux stills are run, if the whys , whens and hows was needed ......nothing more than that.

[Sulaiman]

Instead of round marbles what about using the flat ones like used for fish tanks or clear vase displays for flowers. They come multicolored and are sold at most stores in the craft section.

I tried something similar but smaller, glass beads for sterilising manicure equipment
... Not good as the void spaces are irregular causing lower vapour velocity, channeling and easily causing flooding.
I've tried glass spheres (listed as slingshot/catapult ammunition!) of 10mm, 7mm, 6mm and 3mm diameter
... smaller = better.
(simple theory gives HETP proportional to diameter)
The 3mm glass spheres give a HETP of about 50mm at 2:1 reflux ratio in my 25mm diameter all glass thermally insulated column.
(I had difficulty estimating the hetp as the difference between 6 and 7 plates is quite small when starting at c40%ABV)

PS beads with holes through them cause the holdup to be quite high which results in the smearing of fractions

[Stonecutter]

I’m simply looking at etched vs polished. Still_Stirrin used 1/2” to great effect and rad used 5/8”. I looked through the topic and I know there was quite a bit of talk regarding marble size. I’m not sure how conclusive the results were though. I believe like you stated, flooding becomes an issue with less void for the liquid to move through.

[Stonecutter]

Saltbush with all due respect you asked me about my still so I answered.

I meant if further discussion on needle valves and how reflux stills are run, if the whys , whens and hows was needed ......nothing more than that.

Thanks for keeping us on the straight and narrow Bill

[Stonecutter]

Clear Glass Marbles 1/2" in...


These are the marbles I bought but I’m concerned about the chemical makeup of this glass. What do you guys think? Is this going to be safe to place in the column?

[still_stirrin]

These are the marbles I bought but I’m concerned about the chemical makeup of this glass. What do you guys think? Is this going to be safe to place in the column?

They’re GLASS! When you drink a highball in a glass, do you worry about the formulation of ingredients that was used to make the glass? Do you know how they make a crystal champagne glass? And yet, we all drink from them.

I think people worry way too much about the composition of the marbles. Glass is glass and your alcohol won’t affect it at all. And you can spend a lot of cash to get “etched marbles” and maybe it will improve the HETP a little. But will it be worth it? Making the column 10% taller will easily compensate for any etching improvements.

My experience with glass marbles, yes...the ones from the hobby shop, work fine. And if (and when) they break or crack, it is easy and economical to replace the damaged marbles, if needed.

The glass is a good thermal insulator so it allows a very efficient heat transfer between rising vapors (hot) and falling condensate (cool) stimulating the reflux interaction. Sure, structured packing or rashig rings are better for reflux, but they are much more expensive. I considered cost versus effectiveness and maintenance and the marbles win hands down!

In my 39” tall 2” OD copper column, the 13mm (1/2”) marbles work great (95%ABV). Slightly smaller diameter would probably be slightly more effective, but the 13mm are a standard size and as such....quite inexpensive. Less than $10USD fills my column, with extra marbles to spare. Try to match that with scrubbies, SPP, or rashig rings!

And the best part....you simply pour them into the column (gently) and empty them out by pouring as well. I soak them in a plastic jug of hot water to clean them and then put them into an old pillow case to dry store. Easy as can be!
ss

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Floral-Weddi ... ler/p/3505

[Stonecutter]

You know when you’re getting knocked upside the head by SS it’s a safe bet that you’re good to go. Thanks for putting my concerns at ease Brotha.

[StillerBoy]

I think people worry way too much about the composition of the marbles. Glass is glass and your alcohol won’t affect it at all. And you can spend a lot of cash to get “etched marbles” and maybe it will improve the HETP a little. But will it be worth it? Making the column 10% taller will easily compensate for any etching improvements.

+1

I personally like the 10 - 11mm one for the 2" column..

And work very good when for used in hybrid mode in the reflux column.. good for compressing the heads, pot mode for the body..

Mars

[Saltbush Bill]

Making the column 10% taller will easily compensate for any etching improvements.

Good point.

[AppleWood50]

Are all glass marbles safe for us in distilling?

Picked up a bunch of blue glass marbles today but slightly concerned that they may not be safe for use?

[drmiller100]

Are all glass marbles safe for us in distilling?

Picked up a bunch of blue glass marbles today but slightly concerned that they may not be safe for use?

A403971C-1FB4-4DB1-BBCC-BAA3FCE1011F.jpeg

I can't imagine why they wouldn't be ok..

[acfixer69]

Are all glass marbles safe for us in distilling?

Picked up a bunch of blue glass marbles today but slightly concerned that they may not be safe for use?

A403971C-1FB4-4DB1-BBCC-BAA3FCE1011F.jpeg

I can't imagine why they wouldn't be ok..

Check for lead before use.

[AppleWood50]

Are all glass marbles safe for us in distilling?

Picked up a bunch of blue glass marbles today but slightly concerned that they may not be safe for use?

A403971C-1FB4-4DB1-BBCC-BAA3FCE1011F.jpeg

I can't imagine why they wouldn't be ok..

Check for lead before use.

Got to say, this was a surprise! Lead in children’s Marbles? But I can totally see what you mean. Done some research and apparently some are 31%+ lead. Not sure if this changes for children’s ones.

How is best for checking the lead content of marbles?

I have a big 20kg sack of lava rock, bought way more than I needed for my pond filter system. So might just use that?

Though I’d prefer the marbles as I imagine lava rock could be similar to ceramic saddles, in that they could absorb off flavours from previous runs. And marbles sound way easier to keep clean!

But when it comes down to it, I’d prefer to be safe and introduce no lead whatsoever into my system!

[still_stirrin]

Have you ever had champagne from a crystal champagne glass? Crystal glass is made with lead, and you’re here to prove that the lead won’t kill you.

Bear in mind that when glass is made, the sand/silica and lead constituents are heated up to a “plasma”, or molten state. That changes the molecular composition of the glass, binding the elements in a structural lattice. It is extremely unlikely that any of the (individual) components remain “unfused” in the lattice.

So, glass marbles are just as safe to use as those crystal champange glasses are to drink out of. Frankly, I’d be more concerned about the dye that is used to color the marbles than any lead in the glass. But even the dye is fused into the structure. My hobby store marbles have a light blue tint to them and I’ve used the same set of marbles for years without incident.

Paranoid …. what? Why should I be paranoid?
ss

[NormandieStill]

Have you ever had champagne from a crystal champagne glass? Crystal glass is made with lead, and you’re here to prove that the lead won’t kill you.

Bear in mind that when glass is made, the sand/silica and lead constituents are heated up to a “plasma”, or molten state. That changes the molecular composition of the glass, binding the elements in a structural lattice. It is extremely unlikely that any of the (individual) components remain “unfused” in the lattice.

So, glass marbles are just as safe to use as those crystal champange glasses are to drink out of. Frankly, I’d be more concerned about the dye that is used to color the marbles than any lead in the glass. But even the dye is fused into the structure. My hobby store marbles have a light blue tint to them and I’ve used the same set of marbles for years without incident.

Paranoid …. what? Why should I be paranoid?
ss

I'm not convinced either way but I'm not sure that sparkling wine at ~13% and 11C is comparable to 95% alcohol vapour and distillate at near boiling. The manufacturers of crystal glasses general say not to put them in a dishwasher as the alloying elements can be dissolved out creating weakness and hazing of the glass.

[Steve Broady]

I propose a test. If anyone has any marbles that they can detect lead in, use them in a reflux column, or just soak them in hot neutral. Then dip a lead test swab into the spirit.

I have the swabs. Anyone who wants to is welcome to send me either the marbles or the spirit, and I will report the results. Theory is wonderful, but it’s hard to argue with empirical evidence.

[drmiller100]

If you are worried about metals you could always distill it. Metals won't vaporize up.

Oh. Wait.

[bobpratl]

If you are worried about metals you could always distill it. Metals won't vaporize up.
Oh. Wait.

That is something to think about since Lead boils at ~3180°F (1749°C)

[Fletching]

I remembered seeing this a while back, but disregarded until the other day when testing the water at my house.

I was using the strips below, which include lead as a test variable:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0BG63JJ ... asin_title

I recently have switched to glass marbles as my main reflux packing for my CCVM (from Copper and SPP) and figured I would test my neutrals. Below are the neutrals I tested:

- 95% BW neutral (Copper mesh only)
- 95% BW neutral (Stainless SPP with 2 rolls of copper mesh to hold in place)
- 95% BW neutral (Glass Marbles with 2 rolls of copper mesh to hold in place)

All three tests came back with 0 ppm of lead.

The glass marbles I use are 0.5” diameter clear glass marbles from Hobby Lobby
https://www.hobbylobby.com/floral-weddi ... 111c6786d4

Not a surprising test, and obviously not the most sensitive lead testing available, but figured I would do it since I had the test strips and various neutrals sitting around.

-Fletching

[Dancing4dan]

Recently made the switch to marbles from copper scrubbiest in my 2” reflux columns. The copper would corrode between runs and turn spirit run product blue. The blue corrosion happens because of infrequent use of the reflux column and retained moisture.

I don’t make “neutral” very often so the 48” column sits for long periods of time. The 24” gets used as a de-tuned still for whisky spirit runs but both columns had same problem.

I don’t try to get azeo or even a truly flavorless neutral as I’m not a fan. The 48” reflux still is used to clean up flavors I don’t like in a whisky and the product gets used to proof up whisky or make gin.

The marbles are working well for me.