Why exactly?

[midcarolina]

oK,,,,,,,, Maybe I should have said strong armed Krispy Kreme .................. the end result is the same an ever growing sense of government intruding in the everyday lives of Americans...............

[Braz]

According to Krispy Kreme the change was motivated by customers, not the government. This is excerpted from the company's press release:

"WINSTON-SALEM, N.C., Jan. 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Krispy Kreme Doughnuts, Inc. (NYSE: KKD) announced today that all Krispy Kreme products sold in the United States have zero grams trans fat.

Krispy Kreme's Research and Development team has worked diligently for quite some time to offer zero grams trans fat products that deliver the one-of-a-kind Krispy Kreme taste that people have loved for generations," said Stan Parker, Krispy Kreme's Senior Vice President of Marketing. "We've been piloting zero grams trans fat products across the country for the past several months and have received an overwhelmingly positive response."

Through the Friends of Krispy Kreme program, an online group of Krispy Kreme fans who receive special Krispy Kreme promotional offers and provide feedback on new Krispy Kreme products, the company knew that reducing trans fat from daily diets had been on their customers' minds. The initiative to transition the entire menu to zero grams trans fat demonstrates Krispy Kreme's commitment to its customers."

It is a good thing when a discussion is based on facts that are actually factual.

[midcarolina]

Yep............... makes complete sense to me that a corp. like KK would issue a press release like that ............instead of poking a stick in the eye of the big monster...................just saying..................

besides if I wanted a healthy donut I would eat a tofu donut................yuuuuuck........LOL

[GuyFawkes]

According to Krispy Kreme the change was motivated by customers, not the government. This is excerpted from the company's press release:

It is a good thing when a discussion is based on facts that are actually factual.

Yeah, because a company would neeeeeever pass of ulterior motives as "serving their customers"....

[drpotoroo]

I know here in Canada the duty on distilled spirits is $0.11696 (11.696 CENTS) per 1 liter of pure alcohol.... or 20L of pure alcohol would cost $2.33 in duty.... peanuts really compared with the tax in the US......

You SERIOUS?! That's incredible. Here in Australia it is over $70/litre pure alcohol!! ( http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... /66216.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

As to the "why", I suspect almost all above theories are probably contributing to the situation. What I would love to do is a proper scientific/economic study of the NZ case looking at tax income, health effects, safety and impact on industries following legalization there. Then I would like to present hard data to our elected representaves. We may not like the way they tend to operate, but Aus and US are still democracies, and the people CAN have an influence.

[GuyFawkes]

You SERIOUS?! That's incredible. Here in Australia it is over $70/litre pure alcohol!! ( http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... /66216.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

As to the "why", I suspect almost all above theories are probably contributing to the situation. What I would love to do is a proper scientific/economic study of the NZ case looking at tax income, health effects, safety and impact on industries following legalization there. Then I would like to present hard data to our elected representaves. We may not like the way they tend to operate, but Aus and US are still democracies, and the people CAN have an influence.

Sounds good, go ahead and do it. You're wasting your time though, unless you can prove to the government that it won't cost them a dime to change things AND it will bring them glory and voter approval, they'll shrug you off. That's the problem with the gov't nowadays, it's no longer about serving the people and what we want, it's about serving their approval ratings and reelection campaigns. Even though the way things are run is outdated and ineffective, it takes inertia to get anything to change, and right now people are much more focused on hot button issues like drug policy and healthcare.

I don't think we can even begin to attempt to make distilling legal until drug policy is revoked. Don't worry though, the incoming generations are much more open-minded to these ideas, I think "radical" ideas like this will soon become commonplace.

And one final thing I would like to add: Why is fermenting legal but distilling isn't? I mean, if the idea is to avoid tax loss, then wouldn't the cheapskates who are solely trying to do things as cheap as possible be making their own cheap wines and ciders anyway? You still dodge taxes (except sales tax to buy supplies)but you do it legally. I don't know, it doesn't make sense. Maybe we're trying to solve an unsolvable puzzle, I don't think there really IS a reason distilling is illegal, and it only remains illegal because there isn't enough inertia to overturn it.

[drpotoroo]

Even though the way things are run is outdated and ineffective, it takes inertia to get anything to change, and right now people are much more focused on hot button issues like drug policy and healthcare.
...
Maybe we're trying to solve an unsolvable puzzle, I don't think there really IS a reason distilling is illegal, and it only remains illegal because there isn't enough inertia to overturn it.

All very true. I will have a look at whether any data might exist that would encourage any industries to come on board. For example, I saw it asserted on another site that spirit sales increased in NZ after legalisation of distilling. If there are numbers to back that up, maybe a commercial group might show interest in backing a push for legalisation? Maybe I'm dreaming.

[GuyFawkes]

If there are numbers to back that up, maybe a commercial group might show interest in backing a push for legalisation? Maybe I'm dreaming.

That's the only possible way. We need to create a public group somewhere, a public interest group, and this group would have the authority to go approach large companies and ask for support to get things done. Because if we could get support from distilleries, and show them that this would help them, I'm sure that would be huge to help sway public interest. Because the gov't doesn't care about issues that don't get press, so we need to start getting press, and the only way to do that is with the support of big companies.

What it comes down to, is we need a lot of people who have a lot of interest in making distilling legal, and don't mind spending a lot of time on this. I don't have anywhere near enough time, and I doubt most users on this site do.....

[MuleKicker]

You got that right v. Get the big companies on your side, cuz they got all the money, lobiests and congressmen in there pockets. Without the big guys, you don't have a chance unfortunately.

[LWTCS]

Without the big guys, you don't have a chance unfortunately.

That is a paraphrase of what my states ABC lawyer tole me.......I need a champion......can you say "cha-ching"?

[MICKoWAR]

Like most things... money.

Sad really.

[paramedic68whiskey]

You know it's actually every bit as illegal to grow your own tobacco?

Seriously? I didn't know that.

Actually they removed the laws for home growing. Most people do not grow it because of the aging and curing process. It is a very tough process.

I firmly believe that distilling is illegal because of tax reasons. Its just another means of control.

[GuyFawkes]

I firmly believe that distilling is illegal because of tax reasons. Its just another means of control.

But see, that's what I'm curious about. That was my first thought too, the feds can tax the shit out of booze, so they do, and they don't want to lose that money.
But if that's the case, why is brewing legal? I mean, I personally know of many people who brew beer and don't distill (or at least haven't told me about it) because it's illegal..... well beer is taxed too, why doesn't the government care about that?

[paramedic68whiskey]

I firmly believe that distilling is illegal because of tax reasons. Its just another means of control.

But see, that's what I'm curious about. That was my first thought too, the feds can tax the shit out of booze, so they do, and they don't want to lose that money.
But if that's the case, why is brewing legal? I mean, I personally know of many people who brew beer and don't distill (or at least haven't told me about it) because it's illegal..... well beer is taxed too, why doesn't the government care about that?

I believe it was said that per gallon beer and wine is taxed a ton less. One of the other posters here had the exact numbers and they were astounding. I also believe it is a means of control, they use the ideals of a nanny state to say it is unsafe. (which I am not denying that it can be) But so many things are unsafe and we are allowed to do them. Home made fireworks are legal, skydiving, scuba, you name it. It may extend back to our puritan roots and ETOH is still considered a low in the eyes of the govt.
Just like anything this hobby depends on us to police our own and do it safely. There will always be those that don't and it ruins it for everyone, and then slowly but surely we will become a complete police state. I use one of my other hobbies as an example. I rescue exotic reptiles and arachnids. This trade is being slowly regulated out of business because of the irresponsible people. This hobby they just use lies and deciet to keep it from becoming a legit thing. JMHO

[GuyFawkes]

I believe it was said that per gallon beer and wine is taxed a ton less. One of the other posters here had the exact numbers and they were astounding. I also believe it is a means of control, they use the ideals of a nanny state to say it is unsafe. (which I am not denying that it can be) But so many things are unsafe and we are allowed to do them. Home made fireworks are legal, skydiving, scuba, you name it. It may extend back to our puritan roots and ETOH is still considered a low in the eyes of the govt.
Just like anything this hobby depends on us to police our own and do it safely. There will always be those that don't and it ruins it for everyone, and then slowly but surely we will become a complete police state. I use one of my other hobbies as an example. I rescue exotic reptiles and arachnids. This trade is being slowly regulated out of business because of the irresponsible people. This hobby they just use lies and deciet to keep it from becoming a legit thing. JMHO

Okay, but I don't think it has to do with safety, you listed all the unsafe things that aren't illegal, things that are more blatantly unsafe than distilling, so the gov't obviously doesn't care if something is unsafe (and they shouldn't).

Judeo-Christian values might play a role, money might play a role from tax revenue lost, but I think it is 95% an issue of inertia. Nobody worthwhile has come forward and said "Hey, we should make distilling legal again", and since no one has changed that inertia and 'got the ball rolling' so to speak, no changes have been made, and none will be made until someone does do that. I think if more people know about distilling, and know how harmless it is, it would become legal fairly quickly. But it remains most of the population doesn't know about it, and so it won't be changed because not enough people care to change it.

[LWTCS]

Things are changing though. Just look at the membership growth at HD. And some of the recent statute changes that have made it more reasonable to start a micro. And look at the recent evolution of equipment within the hobby comunity....
If the gooberment doesn't do a knee jerk,,and impatient people don't jump too early before more imbedment can be cultivated......things are building momentum from my perspective.

[paramedic68whiskey]

Things are changing though. Just look at the membership growth at HD. And some of the recent statute changes that have made it more reasonable to start a micro. And look at the recent evolution of equipment within the hobby comunity....
If the gooberment doesn't do a knee jerk,,and impatient people don't jump too early before more imbedment can be cultivated......things are building momentum from my perspective.

Agreed, and we should keep doing the best to get our hobbie known in a good light.

[GuyFawkes]

I was discussing this issue with a few lawyer buds today, and they agreed the impetus behind the illegality of distilling would not be a safety or even taxation issue. Even with the painful "sin taxes" the government likes to put on the alky, what they really make bank off is income tax, both the state and the feds. And they can charge you income tax if you sell your own liqour plus their sin taxes. Sounds like they would have a HUGE tax benefit to legalizing it, and this isnt rocket science, its pretty basic economics

So what is it? Its that cancer that seeps into our legislation time and time again- morality masquerading as law. For whatever reason, it became illegal so it needs to be given force to become legal. How does that happen? With support from US representatives. And what representative is going to stand behind home distilling, when such a misinformed public will roast him for it?

So I think the #1 way to get support for our hobby is not putting inertia behind it, cuz that will come, but rather through education. Teach everyone we can about our hobby and what it is really like. Start spreading out word that its really no different than cooking fine foods, and the misconceptions will die out, and candidates will be more willing to support it

I thought this was an interesting conclusion we reached, and wanted to divulge

[LWTCS]

So what is it? Its that cancer that seeps into our legislation time and time again- morality masquerading as law. For whatever reason, it became illegal so it needs to be given force to become legal. How does that happen? With support from US representatives. And what representative is going to stand behind home distilling, when such a misinformed public will roast him for it?

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that many of the archaic laws and statues where installed in order to protect the interests of the oldest (and biggest) players within the industry. These "rules" also help concentrate /focus revenue streams so the the clunky and expensive government can get spoon fed what they consider rightfully theirs. So the system is really reciprocal in nature IMO.
What we need is a champion that can create a solution that helps the government realize how economically viable the hobby community can be and also on a slightly larger scale,,,how economically viable smaller micro outfits can be if given some breathing room.

ABC lawyer in my area tole me that the distributors want to protect their interests as well...The system is set up so that you gotta have some deep pockets to play...You have to have $$$$ amount of inventory in your warehouse facility before they even issue the license or some such thing?
They not gonna let their territory get infiltrated,,,,,,but I wanna know who the hek says it is there territory?
Let the customer judge who deserves to sell his favorite drop.....and if micros are so shitty then the big boys ain't got nuthin to worry about.

We already see a shift in the big boy strategy with all these new releases of "single barrel" and "small batch" offering's.. Big Boy knows whut's up.

[Slowninja]

The problem with talking about our hobby to others, is what we do is still illegal. It's hard to explain to someone, "I make my own liquor and it's entirely safe. The gov't has no reason for it to be illegal, but it is."... Which is usually followed by "you're a moonshiner?".

Even if it were possible to explain the difference, it would make such a small impact in the terms of the US population that still 90+% wouldn't know.

And, at that point.. Now everyone knows you distill illegally. All it would take is one person to name drop, and ABC agents are knocking down your door.

[LWTCS]

I'm sure they can come callin any time they want......

[StillCopper]

We've been working towared a TTB licensed spot, and in doing so finding out why homedistilling is so 'bad'. They have ways of taxing things, so that's not the problem. We can make up to 200 gallons of beer and wine in this state, no tax paid.
It comes down to the large corporate firms controlling the laws. They have the money and the licensing doesn't bother them. They don't want to give up the market share to small home-based distilleries. For as little as $5,000 you could be in the distilling business for real, if you didn't have all the hoops to jump through the corporate folks have had the government place there. But the small folks have to work under the same rules as those producing 1000 gal/month, so a minimum startup is around $50,000 instead, which keeps small folks out of the business.
It's the simple fact we small folks don't have anyone in Washington to go against the corporate giants.

[GuyFawkes]

Now everyone knows you distill illegally. All it would take is one person to name drop, and ABC agents are knocking down your door.

Overreaching. Im sorry, but if the ATF, or whatever they hell they go by nowadays was actually interested in busting people for stilling, they would do it, same with the state police. Go ahead and try to find instances of it, but rather than large explosions or somewhat sizable moonshine-selling rings, you arent going to see many cases of it. Its frankly not worth their time

And once again, this is something I feel should be branded on the top of this page in red.... INFORMATION IS NEVER ILLEGAL. Knowing about distilling and actually distilling are two different ballgames. If you are really interested in spreading this hobby and making it legal, even drop it, sell your still, remove all evidence you ever stilled in the first place, then go start a lobby group or something. Or, better yet, go legit and become a licensed distiller (even just for fuel). If the feds do decide to make an example of you, they will have nothing to arrest you for, because again, information is not illegal.