Cut Points? Foreshots? Heads and Tails? Feints?

[NZChris]

A while back I did an all feints run that was a combination of several years worth of whiskey, brandy and sugar wash feints. Most of the feints were so old that the cardboard had pretty much disappeared. Combined, it was damned near drinkable product without re-distilling. The cuts were separated into brandy style and whiskey style because that was the way they came over in the distillation. The whiskey end was used in Bayleys and Glayva style liquors, the brandy end was used for brandy based liquors and some aged on oak and I suspect there may still be a demijohn of it somewhere in the back of the cellar.

[CuWhistle]

There were 2 reasons for doing the run yesterday. Primary was to see what an all feints run did as far as changing what went through and secondary was to condense it all as I need some cleaning fluid to kill some lichens and molds. It wasn't a complete waste of time and the results were very interesting.

Essentially there is very little foreshots substance in the 250 ml I've been removing at each strip. Probably only about 30 ml or so. This was very obvious in the observed temperatures and ABV for the first couple of jars. Then there was a surprisingly long period of extremely stable running, unlike the usual steady change you see with a pot still. It ran for nearly 2 hours at constant temperature and produced 3.6 litres of 80%. Absolutely no change whatever and most very definitely heads. Absolutely awful.

So by this stage I had easily past the original 250 ml extractions by more than triple. It then took a very gradual decline in ABV for each jar of only 1% and by the time I reached the end it was still at 55% but it just stopped. There is distinct heads burn nearly to the end. The tails smell didn't come till very late.

As I said, there may be a jar or two of keepers after airing but it has shown me quite a lot. A very interesting experiment.

[The Baker]

NZChris said, 'Most of the feints were so old that the cardboard had pretty much disappeared.'

Cardboard??

Geoff

[NZChris]

NZChris said, 'Most of the feints were so old that the cardboard had pretty much disappeared.'

Cardboard??

Geoff

Fusel smells

[The Baker]

Gotcha. Fusel smells.

I tend to take things literally...


Geoff

[Frosty36]

When I use the word 'cut' I really mean choosing a blend. 'Cut' is more appropriate when you have done the same product over and over and are able to cut 'on the fly' as they do in the industry. Unfortunately, newbies see the word cut and then get the idea that they should be able to cut on the fly like they see idiots on YouTube doing.

This makes it a little easier to grasp. I've seen the videos you speak of...never thought they made much sense. Watching guys just look at it and say..ohh its good now. No dumbass, it's not.
Anyways, after making enough stripping runs to have a spirit run, what would you guys dilute it down to before running it? I feel like I read putting a strip run into the still at a high proof could be a serious problem.

[jonnys_spirit]

40% Abv is considered max in a spirit run for safety. I’ll mix low wines and feints and cut with some backset for the spirit run. If I was making neutral I’d cut with water if needed.

Cheers!
JB

[NZChris]

Anyways, after making enough stripping runs to have a spirit run, what would you guys dilute it down to before running it? I feel like I read putting a strip run into the still at a high proof could be a serious problem.

I seldom dilute, when I have done, it was with fresh wash in a flavored product. I put the alcometer in the low wines receiver and run until it reaches my desired abv, 40% for neutrals, 27-32% for flavored products.

[Frosty36]

Awesome. Running apple again so the 27- 32% works for me. Maybe you can educate me...why is it bad to put something higher than 40% into a still?

[CuWhistle]

Boom.
40% is the point at which it becomes flammable, volatile, explosive etc. Putting higher than 40% is not something you need or want to do.

[Saltbush Bill]

40% is still safe.....the higher you go above that the higher the potential for trouble.

[NZChris]

Boom.
40% is the point at which it becomes flammable, volatile, explosive etc. Putting higher than 40% is not something you need or want to do.

Someone needs to inform Bundaberg about that.

[Yummyrum]

Boom.
40% is the point at which it becomes flammable, volatile, explosive etc. Putting higher than 40% is not something you need or want to do.

Someone needs to inform Bundaberg about that.

Indeed ... Bundy put 50% into their pot still for the spirit run , but it is steam heated ..... no sources of ignition anywhere near .
Bundy are extremely cautious . They won’t let you into the distillation room on a tour .

[CuWhistle]

A beginner asked why you don't charge a boiler with above 40%. What would you tell him?

[johnnyv]

A beginner asked why you don't charge a boiler with above 40%. What would you tell him?

Flash point of 50% ethanol by volume in water is 24 °C which could be within ambient temp in which case you want to be careful of ignition sources.
But then again you would want to be careful with your distillate also as you can easily go over 80% which is 20 °C and 90% is 17 °C.

The flammable concentration range for ethanol is 3 - 19 % by volume in air which is a fairly wide range for a solvent and within this range a flame will be able to spread from an ignition source back toward the vapour source.

Ethanol vapour is heavier than air and will generally sink down although some of it will diffuse in all directions.

So charging an open boiler with high % low wines especially preheated low wines with an exposed element that is on would be an extremely bad idea.
Distilling in an enclosed small space with open collection jars at high ambient temp with an exposed element also bad.
Auto ignition temp is 365 °C so an exposed electric element has potential although less than a gas ring obviously.

[Frosty36]

So bad all around. Answers that question. I happen to like my face and my house as is.

[Frosty36]

When running a stripping run, I've been told "hot and fast". Will this not cause puking? I figure run it mid heat and it should be ok. Am i mistaken?

[Saltbush Bill]

That will depend on the type of wash or mash that is being stripped......a bit of puke in the strip is no big deal.
Some ferments puke easier than other......experience will teach you which ones you need to take care with.

[Frosty36]

Good to know. So if it pukes, keep running as is? If it pukes in the strip and I do my spirit run slowly, will the leftover puke not carry over?
Thanks!

[jonnys_spirit]

Add a tablespoon of olive oil or dollop of butter to help prevent foaming leading to a puke. Careful heatup and long slow foreshots draw will also help. Heat up at full power and as it comes up to temp bring the power way way down to creep up to the initial drips. Collect your foreshots slow. 30-60 min. Then increase power till you nust get a broken stream and collect for a bit. Then you can slowly go up to full power for the rest if the strip.

I regularly strip a 15gal all grain beer in about 90min with no pukes.

Good luck!
-jb

[Saltbush Bill]

No don't keep running as is.....back off the heat some till it stops puking.

[Frosty36]

Got it. Thank you.

[jonnys_spirit]

Once you have quelled the puke by dialing the power back and you regain control you might have a feeling that the PC is now pretty dirty. Don't worry too much about it on a strip because the low wines will clean the PC enough for you to continue. You may want to clean it after you're done.

Cheers!
-jonny

[Frosty36]

Just run some water through it if it is dirty?

[Bubbles2]

FNG here, Reading and so forth, I did not see any reference to altitude if using a therm for a cue... Just sayin. I also watched an old boy distilling and he used a spoon and a lighter to decide his first 'cut'. Where he would use a metal tablespoon to sample after a few Oz's at start and would lite it and if had yellow flame it was not good drinking, rather fuel. Once it burned Blue, now there is a tinge of slight yellow where the flame is interacting with O2 but for the better part the flame was all blue and Hearts. I really commented here to point out altitude and boil point correlation "wanting to help or put back in is all."

[NZChris]

FNG here, Reading and so forth, I did not see any reference to altitude if using a therm for a cue... Just sayin. I also watched an old boy distilling and he used a spoon and a lighter to decide his first 'cut'. Where he would use a metal tablespoon to sample after a few Oz's at start and would lite it and if had yellow flame it was not good drinking, rather fuel. Once it burned Blue, now there is a tinge of slight yellow where the flame is interacting with O2 but for the better part the flame was all blue and Hearts. I really commented here to point out altitude and boil point correlation "wanting to help or put back in is all."

You should choose your cuts using your senses, not temperature, elevation, abv and flame color. Look up Kiwistiller's guide to cuts.

[richard1]

Elevation affect the azeo normal boiling point for ethanol so it is important. So too is the temperature at which point the cut is / was made for your particular recipe. If you are happy with the taste at that temperature well then that's the future setpoint going forward.

[Randell]

I'm talkin' 'bout a potstill here, and these are the terms I learned when younger. Many folks use different terms for the same thing, or stage of the run.

Charge a still with a fully fermented mash or wash. Start the heat to the still and bring it up to operatin' temp. Collect ALL distillate, makin' no cuts. Collect untill the abv% of the distillate drops to 10%. You should have about 1/3 the origional volume now.

You now have done a strippin' run. Huzzah!

Now you have an option: Do yer second run now, or ferment out and strip two more washes or mashes.

If ya do yer second run now ya get X amount of distillate from runnin' the still twice. If ya combine three stripped batches and run 'em the second time all together ya get 3X amount of distillate from runnin' the still four times. Huge savin's in overall time and energy by combinin' stripped runs, but we don't always have that luxury.

The Second Run: Here is where we do "cuts" and divide the run into foreshots, heads, body, and tails.

Charge and fire-up yer still. Adjust heat as to get a fast drip, or a tiny stream from yer condencer (I use a coil)[The stream should actually be tiny... size of a pencil lead or a bit smaller]. The first bit out of the coil should be run into a graduated cylinder, or measurin' cup (with ml graduations). Collect and discard 200 ml, or more, per 5 gallon wash or mash. This is foreshots. Foreshots are where most of the methanol, and bad nastys are.

So if ya combined three stripped 5 gallon rum washes into roughly 5 gallons again, and were discardin' foreshots, you'd wanna collect and discard AT LEAST 600ml. This is a pot still we're talkin' 'bout here.

Now yer collectin' heads. Heads often smell and taste sweetish. Heads are a mix of ethanol and the lighter alcohols. Collect and discard, or save yer heads. But this isn't yer drink... don't drink heads unless ya want a nasty splittin' headache and a sour stomach.

Next comes the body, and the body is what ya age/flavor/water down and bottle. The body is yer drink. Where ya make yer "cut" from head to body is based on the intended drink (whiskey, rum, brandy, etc) and upon the distillers sence of smell and taste. The distillers experience tells him or her where to make the cut.

Collect and save the body.

When the body is finished (up to the distillers experience) make the cut to tails. If this is all new to you and yer a new distiller... I suggest ya make the cut from body to tails when the output of the still drops to 50 or 45% abv.

Tails are usually (but not allways) low proof and watery... the still will start dischargin' the distillate slower and the nice tiny stream will change in appearance to a thicker stream that will eventually break apart into large watery drops. Tails from some stuff, like whiskey mashes, can be oily. Tails are most allways stinky, and become more nasty and stinky as ya get further into the tails.

Save or discard tails. I save 'em. It's probably silly of me, but I save tails 'till I have a full charge for my still, then I run it and mark it "tails XX". When I have a full charge for my still of tails XX I run it and collect till the overall collected amount of distillate is roughly 70% (140 proof) and I use it as fuel in a few alcohol stoves and I use it as a solvent.


A word about cuts: With experience yer nose and tongue will guide you. With enough experience no tastin' will be necessary... a good sniff will be all ya need usually. Also hydrometers are way better gauges of where ya are in a run than thermometers for a potstill.





I hope this was clear enough, and is able to help.




I wish ya luck.

So if I got 25 gallon mash and a 10 gallon still I can run three 8 gallon runs quick then put all back in to get my spirit, and my pot still has 3 inch fill port can I just open it and keep pouring in untill all mash is gone thank

[NZChris]

Only if you dump the backset every time.

[Corsaire]

Yes, run 8 gallons, dump the backset that remained in the boiler, fill with 8 fresh gallons and repeat.
Happy stilling!