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Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:32 pm
by S-Cackalacky
scout wrote:A top-o-the day to you kind sir. May all your whisky be smooth as a babe's behind and as strong as their lungs a crying. I'm third generation here in the states, for the Irish and Scotsman parts (me dad's side o the tree), the rest o me is Nakota and Austrian (good ole mom's side o the tree). Tis the Irish bit that's Coopers, Great Uncle Leslie taught me not to make bets with him least I get to learn the trade, which I did and love. The Scots bit is the whisky makers, I was being taught both by the ripe old age of 7.

When you are using fruit woods in your whisky, I'd make sure they are dry as a bone then give em a nice roast, just enough to turn the wood darker. That should make the flavors come nicely. When you make a barrel, the staves are always heated by a fire on the floor, the making barrel sits over it to heat the wood so it will bend nice with out cracking. Now while I've never bothered to look close, I would imagine that the right amount of heat for that step would put a light toast on the innards of the barrel. I've been reading about the use of sticks in glass for this and will be giving it a try this season.
That's funny, my Dad's side of the family is all Scotch/Irish. That side of the family is mostly from the Smoky Mountain area of N. Carolina. Mom's side is from the mountain's of Georgia. They're mostly English, but not sure. Dad would always say that Noah pulled the ark up to the Carolina shore and kicked our ancestors out. I don't have a clue how they actually got here.

Thanks for the advice on the fruit woods. I'll dry the apple wood out a bit and only lightly toast it before trying it again.

S-C

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:36 am
by Fidget
Really interesting topic this one.

Has anyone else made any further discoveries, now that things have had time to age?

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:16 pm
by magnetic_tarantula
Crabapple is killer, and Pear too, everyone liked the Cherry wood as well

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:37 pm
by HPD
Buccaneer Bob wrote:At the risk of ruffling a few feathers, I want to pitch something out there as food for thought.

I have been entertaining a theory that one of the primary reasons why they make barrels out of white oak instead of other hardwoods is not because white oak imparts liquors and wines with more magical flavors/colors than other hardwoods. It is actually because white oak imparts liquor and wine with less flavor or color over time than many other hardwoods.

Let's say that a distillery makes a liquor with an overabundance of undesirable head esters that need years to break down into something more palatable.

If they put their liquor into a barrel made from a darker, potentially more flavorful wood like apple wood or plum wood for three or four years, just imagine how dark and flavored it would be when it finally comes out of such a barrel.

That is why they use white oak, emphasis on the "white" part -- less color and I would venture less flavoring potential than other woods.

I am basing this theory on my own experiments using apricot wood. I was given a good deal of apricot wood by my neighbor, who ripped out an older orchard to make room for corn, and I am really liking how apricot wood flavors and colors my spirits.

And it doesn't take long, either. Oak might take a lot of folks weeks to get much flavor or color out of it, but I can get some really great flavor and color from apricot wood in a matter of days. I actually have to keep a close eye on things to keep from going overboard with it.

So I am thinking that there have to be many other alternative woods that will work just as well as white oak for coloring and flavoring spirits and that there are some woods that will actually work a lot better for some hobby distillers in certain situations.

Hobby distillers are not trying to meet production quotas and profit margins, and they can afford to play it safer with their cuts. So they really don't need to age their spirits for four years to get them to a drinkable state.

Me, I can't even imagine putting my liquor in a barrel and hoping I will still be around in three or four years to enjoy it.

Let's face it, barrel aging has its roots in an era when distillers didn't have access to biochemists who could tell them what kinds of chemicals a particular yeast is producing and why or access to gas chromatographs to tell them what they need to pitch and what they need to keep.

They got what they got, they dumped it in a barrel, and they came back a few years later to find that their liquor had magically been transformed into something much more desirable than it was when it first went into the barrel. And they passed that tradition down from generation to generation.

Of course, we hobby and craft distillers, living in the age we do, have the internet and more information than we could ever hope to absorb in a lifetime: recipes shared by wonderful folks who don't feel the need to carefully guard their trade secrets, yeast producers' websites and all of their considerable knowledge, forums to ask questions, you name it.

So I would contend that we have all the tools that we need to make a better liquor than our forefathers could have ever imagined with the tools and information they had access to a century or more ago. And we are not chained to a barrel for long-term aging purposes.

Moreover, we hobby and craft distillers should be looking at wood, not for long-term storage purposes, but as "flavor sticks" and "color cubes", if you will.

We should be exploring the benefits of a variety of alternative woods -- apple wood, plum wood, cherry wood, pecan wood, etc. -- and a myriad of combinations of those alternatives, with an eye toward imparting our liquors with the most desirable flavors and colors that we can come up with.

Yes, maybe it does make sense to age whiskey on oak. But how much sense does it make to age peach brandy on oak? Think about it. Wouldn't it make much more sense to age peach brandy on peach wood? Apple brandy on apple wood? Rum on, say, a combination of cherry wood, apple wood, and plum wood?

It seems to me that there is a whole realm of flavoring and coloring possibilities that have probably never been properly explored. And we hobby and craft distillers are the ones who should be leading the charge. Heck, we're the only ones with the freedom to actually do it.

I mean, it's not like the Jack Daniels folks can come out and say, "Hey everybody, we were wrong about the mystical properties of our charred oak barrels. We found out that Japanese Plum wood works a lot better."

It would be like "New Coke" all over again ... for those of you who were around to witness that fiasco. :roll:

As a general guideline for which woods might be acceptable, I would encourage folks to peruse any of the various "wood toxicity charts" available on the internet.

These charts were not created with the concept of "extracted essences and colors of particular woods through direct contact with ethanol" in mind, but they are certainly helpful as a starting point.

The only woods that I am sure one would need to avoid are the ones that say something to the effect of "direct toxin". Oddly, they say that sassafras is one of only a handful of woods that are "direct toxins", and for how many centuries was root beer and tea made from sassafras root? Go figure, huh?

But, of course, many of the other woods on the lists might impart flavors or colors that would make a liquor terribly undesirable or unpleasant to drink. For me, pine comes to mind, but perhaps somebody else might actually like using a little pine for something like gin. Who knows?

I, personally, like the idea of using woods from trees that produce things that we eat on a regular basis and that tend to have an agreeable and complementary aroma when freshly worked. But that's just me.

So what do you all think about all of this?

Am I full of crap?

Or have some of you had good experiences infusing your liquors with flavors and colors from other woods?

If so, what were they?
Also, I suspect the American White Oak from the Ozarks is chosen because its tighter grain means less product loss over time.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:00 pm
by csp15
old thread , but I am trying some sugar maple with some good results so far ( aged 6 weeks now )

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:20 pm
by Copper Thumper
Fruit/nut wood is usually good for aging.... Others, not so much.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:33 am
by Tapeman
White oak was chosen because it is very water tight and doesn't rot easily. Boat builders are keen on the wood for under water for this reason. Red oak has tubes that you can actually blow air through which one can picture your efforts pouring like rain from.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:48 am
by Swedish Pride
I've used apple wood in many of my suggarheads so far because i have loads of it.
I like it, did a comparison to oak chips on there own, apple on its own and a mix of both.
I didn't really take any notes and even if I did my palate is not brilliant, however I've kept on using apple, it lends a sweetness to the drink, my wife can pick out apple on the nose, me not so much. I've a really poor sense of smell, but the sweetness comes over in the nose to me
At this point I'm so used to it that sweetness smells like "my" drink and I miss it in bonded drink now :)

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:22 am
by Tapeman
I've used apple wood shavings in some sugar head as well, it develops a funny taste at first but mellows very nicely. I also prefer it to white oak, but I'm no connoisseur.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:23 pm
by RiseNShine
This has been a topic ive wanted to explore more! I have recently toasted maple, and cherrry as well as a charred other cuts from the same piece of wood and have put them away to see how they develop. i will post more updates later. as of right now they have only been aging for a week and the carred versions have beautiful colour, nose hasnt quite caught up to the colour though. the toasted versions are still very light, as expected. hoping to get my hands on chestnut to run similar tests.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:44 pm
by MDH
Acacia, Birch and Chestnut are all very nice. I like second use Acacia for finishing some Fruit Brandy.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:38 am
by scout
White oak is used because it doesn't have the open structure of red oak.
The pores found in the growth rings on red oak are very open, porous and should be easily identifiable with the naked eye.
White oak, however, has its pores plugged with tyloses, which help make white oak suitable for water-tight vessels, and give it increased resistance to rot and decay.
The presence of tyloses is perhaps the best and most reliable way to distinguish the two oaks since wood color is highly unreliable.

The reasons coopers use white oak are several; 1. It is strong and will bend without cracking when it has been heated, 2. it has all those tyloses that keep liquids from leaking out as if they were poured into a large hole sieve, 3. contains things like vanillin, sugars, tannins, oils (flavonoids) which add flavors that please the palate.

Now for any other wood to be considered suitable for stave wood, it simply needs to meet the criteria for stave wood, which is: strong under tension, responds well to heat both for bending purposes and flavonoid development, holds liquids by virtue of the woods structure. If the wood has complex and simple sugars, small amounts of tannin, a structure full of tyloses or another structure that blocks easy passage of liquids, some oils that are not irritants, then it can be considered for stave wood. This is all for wood slated for use in cask making, if you only use bits of wood (slats, chunks, etc.) then even more woods become available for consideration.

A lot of fruit woods tend towards the brittle end of the bending spectrum (staves are usually a minimum of 3/4" thick and some casks are built 1.5" thick) This might make them considered unsuitable for staves, they would still be good for flavoring wood sticks, chunks, etc.
Woods to avoid would be those that have undesirable characteristics like containing a form of cyanide, having irritant oils, containing resins, being considered "fat" woods, wrong structure.
This takes out things like pines, junipers, teak, bocote, all of the rose woods, ebonies, purple heart, etc. out of contention for use as an aging/ flavoring medium.

The best thing to do is to give a wood that fits the criteria a test cook, put that(those) test pieces into some product and see how it goes.
If you are cautious,(and that is something everyone should be when gambling with your life or eye sight) then a simple spectrometry test can be run by a laboratory and you will know in no uncertain terms if that wood is dangerous to your health.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:14 pm
by raketemensch
That, scout, is a perfect example of what makes HD such an amazing place. Thanks for the post.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:57 am
by ScotchyScotch
Brilliant thread,

Currently trying to age small samples in Beech, Sweet Cherry and Chestnut was wondering if anyone had come across anything that goes into the chemical differences of woods? Phenols, Aldehydes, etc might give a bit of an idea of what to expect rather than whacking wood into bottles and seeing what happens.

I've found this on Chestnut which is pretty interesting and while technically it's talking about wine there's gotta be some crossover there

http://www.academicwino.com/2012/01/che ... -oak.html/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:17 am
by Tapeman
Be sure to update with your results. I think the consensus was that fruit Woods imparted decent flavors but White Oak seemed to give the flavor we most looked for. Chestnut is an interesting idea, there isn't a lot of it around obviously but I'd love to hear what you get from it. I've used sugar maple that was lightly charred and the result was an interesting Smoky flavor in a very very short time. At some point I want to try Hickory but I'm a little low on untreated spirits right now.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:45 pm
by The Baker
scout said, "A lot of fruit woods tend towards the brittle end of the bending spectrum (staves are usually a minimum of 3/4" thick and some casks are built 1.5" thick) This might make them considered unsuitable for staves, they would still be good for flavoring wood sticks, chunks, etc. "

Of course you could be unconventional and make casks with straight sides.
Geoff

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:53 am
by donpelon
I distilled some pot-still Brandy made from cheap-ass, rotgut Carlo and Rossi jugs of red wine. Once I made some tight cuts and aged it on toasted Maplewood BBQ chips. Came out as some of the best (and most interesting) shine I've made so far. Definitley a "maple syrup", sweet aftertaste, but with a rounded, well-bodied, caramel color. Brought it over to a neighbor's house for a informal tasting- that bottle got drained quick!

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:09 pm
by Tapeman
Sugar maple does add it's own kind of flavor, other species in the maple family probably (like red maple)should be avoided due to terrible stinky attributes. Interesting that you made something excellent from rotgut jug wine. I've read others in this forum denigrating noobies like me for even suggesting such short cuts - pun intended. I just made some excellent "dark rum" from a batch of gumballhead with burnt brown sugar and molasses added to it. The neutral was holding some off flavors that disappeared with the addition of toasted sugars! Sorry in advance guys.

Tapeman