I vote to "out" copper from the homedistillation process!

[Odin]

Haha,

No, not really. This is tests on commercial product, not on how we make our stuff. We have treated that earlier on. In the way that commercial distillers make their product. Columns that are ran semi-continuously or cleaned out prior to a new run.

And I have provided two "rules" we could live by to keep you in that same good, healthy thrash hold MDH is talking about: preventing your copper to oxidize and cleaning it out prior to a run, when there is some time between runs.

Yes, then you would have results that are probably comparable to the outcomes MDH shares (much obliged by the way).

But no, we don't do that. Not as a common practice. If there is anything I want to achieve with this tread, it is (as stated before) not to abandon copper from our hobby. I spiced up this tread, because I want us all to think about how we can avoid the obvious risks involved when dealing with copper. Risks that have been obvious since the middle ages, risks all cooks know about, but somehow slipped our attention.

Not to late to start to take a better look at it. But let's look at it. Again, the way we run is different from commercials whos products are checked.

Eating from copper, cooking in copper pots clearly create a big health risk. So that holds for drinking too. What's the difference between cooking water in a copper pot, boiling your food in it, on the one hand, and cooking water with alcohol in a copper pot, then drinking it? And don't say "but we don't drink from the pot, since gasses travel up, etc.", because those gasses also have copper contact at the top of the column and are cooled down in copper product coolers and measured in copper parots.

I do agree more tests are needed. I will see if I can find somebody who can do an analysis on what a run with a copper alambic, not used for a month, would give on copper.

Anyone out there with a ... what's it called device?

Regards, Odin.

[Mulitpleg]

I do agree more tests are needed. I will see if I can find somebody who can do an analysis on what a run with a copper alambic, not used for a month, would give on copper.

Might have been interesting to do that before the first post.

[rumbuff]

I'm with Guitarmaster on this one. Odin, the levels of these compounds are naturally controlled by the fact that once they're formed, they protect the remaining copper from getting affected. Also, anybody that does multiple runs, even if the copper formed a huge amount of these compounds per run, and contaminated each stripping run, on the spirit run, you'd only have 1 run worth of contamination, which would probably be rinsed out and discarded in the foreshots/heads cut, as the salts formed in the stripping runs would be left behind. I see no cause for worry.

[Odin]

Rumbuff

Fine, we all make our choices and hold our beliefs. Nothing wrong with that! But a still has a part where it heats up liquids to gasses and another part where gasses are liquified again. Likker/copper contact is a fact. And hot, alcohol rich likker at that. If there is no risk ... was there never a risk? Did we actually wrongly assume people died earliers when they still ate from and cooked in copper plates and pots?

I am affraid not. Copper in the food processing industry is not a good idea, unless that copper is treated in the right way. The right way for us may well be this:
1. Continuous operation (prevents 02 / copper contact and thus rust formation), and if you can't:
2. Put your copper parts in an environment without 02, and if you can't:
3. Clean out your copper parts with 50/50 cola/water prior to the run.

That way, as the numbers shown by MDH show, there is no problem.

Odin.

[Odin]

All,

I guess in a way I don't like the vibe this tread has. Or maybe it is just the vibe it gives me?

One way or the other, I can only blame myself for that.

Choosing a title like "I vote to "out" copper ..." nicely stirred up the bee hive. And I felt the topic was important enough to do that. But push some, and expect to be pushed back some more. Nothing wrong with that, just the way things are and should be.

In retrospect, I may have better opted for a title like "Is copper potentially a health risk if not treated properly?" as I did on another forum. The discussion over there was very calm. On the other hand, it didn't gain the depth of attention it got here.

This way or that way, I feel I should restate what this tread was about for me:
1. Copper compounds in an oxygen rich environment.
2. Copper compounds are dangerous because of their toxicity, as is shown by history and folks eating from / cooking in copper.
3. Copper, used in distillation also compounds.
4. Copper compounds come over in the final drink via liquid/copper and vapour/copper contact.
5. The way most homedistillers work enhances the formation of copper compounding. If they work with copper, that is.
6. This creates a potential health risk that can (and should) be managed.
7. 02 contact prevention after a run and accid cleaning before a run both provide the means to get us there.

Feel free to agree or disagree with me,
And please act accordingly!

Hey, that's allmost a verse,
And copper, well treated, is not a curse.

Just rinse out them columns before every run,
And you may yet live longer and have you some fun.

Coca Cola Cleaning is the right way to go,
If you want to defy the copper compounding woe.

That treatment will also make your column shine,
And for us moonshiners, that's dandy fine.

Odin.

[Jimbo]

Haha. What did you expect. You know we all love copper porn here. You basically said Pamela Anderson is ugly and should die. Lol. Goof.

[drinkingdog]

I don't feel qualified to say much because I'm not qualified, but from what I had read shiny outside good shiny inside not good so I don't agree with the acid treatment (coke a cola treatment #7 ) before runs except if there is visible signs of corrosion within the column. I do whole heartedly agree it should be looked into more as it pertains to the home Distiller.

[Richard7]

Anything that affects our health is worth a topic here. I don't feel unsafe using copper but this thread has re affirmed some of the things I do like a good rinse of the column after distilling.
Now I am considering finding a solution to keep my column submerged in while not in use to keep o2 from forming salts that could be a hazard.
But at the same time I am in no rush cause I feel like most if not all of the danger is gone after collecting foreshots.

Just rinse out them columns before every run,
And you may yet live longer and have you some fun.

Coca Cola Cleaning is the right way to go,
If you want to defy the copper compounding woe.

That treatment will also make your column shine,
And for us moonshiners, that's dandy fine.

Odin.

Odin before you know it you will be working for the MCA! (Lynyrd Skynyrd referance!)

[Richard7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUpJlui_Y4I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[guittarmaster]

I'm not bring critical Odin. Sorry if it comes off that way. I'm just contributing the best facts i can provide. We are all ambassadors of our hobby the way i see it and if we do not have the best evidence available to us we're no better than the factless prohibitionists who outlawed alcohol almost 100 years ago! People have questions to the safety of our hobby and it's important to be honestto the risks but we have to keep in mind the scale. Assuming the chronic exposure is similar to the accute exposure then the alcohol itself is worse than the copper; both of which is less dangereous than aspirin. Keeping it in perspective. Thats all i'm saying.


GM

[Mulitpleg]

If you are going to make big claims it would help to back them up with evidence rather than theoretical ponderings.

Run a couple of samples through a gas chromatograph, find out how much copper is being introduced by a copper still vs a stainless steel one. Then come and let us know.

[googe]

If you are going to make big claims it would help to back them up with evidence rather than theoretical ponderings.

Run a couple of samples through a gas chromatograph, find out how much copper is being introduced by a copper still vs a stainless steel one. Then come and let us know.

+1

[Windy City]

I have to agree with guitarmaster and others I don't believe a well pateanad copper can expose you to dangerous levels of copper. As a master plumber I can install any where from 10,000 to 20,000 feet of copper a year. That's cutting it sanding it burning it and BREATHING it. There are approx 8,500 licensed plumbers in this state and between OSHA and the trial lawyers if it was that big of a health risk I am sure the law suits would have been rolling a long time ago let alone the fact that we are installing all this pipe for potable drinking water

On a lighter note would you rather stroll up to the pearly gates and mutter to St Peter yea it was ok or come in sliding sideways head over heals yelling What A Ride!! I'll chose the latter

Windy City

[guittarmaster]

If you are going to make big claims it would help to back them up with evidence rather than theoretical ponderings.

Run a couple of samples through a gas chromatograph, find out how much copper is being introduced by a copper still vs a stainless steel one. Then come and let us know.

actually GC wouldn't tell you anything about copper. It WOULD tell you about other volatile compounds like methanol, propanol, butanone, etc. You'd need something like Atomic absorption spectroscopy. I found a really good used one on ebay. You can buy it now for $8,995 . It's a steal compared to the cost of a new one . Of course you'd still need compressed oxygen, acetylene, and dry clean compressed air. My work is controlled and unauthorized experiments are not only illegal but fire-able offenses.

Also, i have been backing all of my claims up with references and have been providing links to msds's and scientific papers that analyzed Cu concentrations. The whole internet is just a search away form showing you the information you need but i'm not going to do it all by myself and post a thesis; that's waaay too much work and i have too much beer to drink

gm

[guittarmaster]

I have to agree with guitarmaster and others I don't believe a well pateanad copper can expose you to dangerous levels of copper. As a master plumber I can install any where from 10,000 to 20,000 feet of copper a year. That's cutting it sanding it burning it and BREATHING it. There are approx 8,500 licensed plumbers in this state and between OSHA and the trial lawyers if it was that big of a health risk I am sure the law suits would have been rolling a long time ago let alone the fact that we are installing all this pipe for potable drinking water

On a lighter note would you rather stroll up to the pearly gates and mutter to St Peter yea it was ok or come in sliding sideways head over heals yelling What A Ride!! I'll chose the latter

Windy City

you know.... if you happen to "accidently" order too much 4" pipe with all those thousands of feet your laying; i could help you hide your accident. I'd take real good cafe of it. Promise!

</off topic>

gm

[bluenose]

What about a hot rinse after a run and blowing some compressed air through the still to dry it out?

Would seems sufficient to me, but what do I know

[Jimbo]

Are you talking about Pamela Anderson or the still?

[Odin]

Depends on what you call safe, Bluenose!

If you just clean out the potential rust prior to a run ... that may be easiest. And if you want to blow out your column afterwards, maybe put plugs in top & bottom? I mean, the 02 present in the column during the time you put it away, can only corode with copper once.

Here's an interesting read for all of you ... well, who are interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Please read it. If for nothing else, because it can give us a baseline to further dive into the potential health risk issue.

Here we go: 1.3 milligrams per liter that's the max for water. And it should be the maximum for likker too, right? Or maybe likker can have more? Why not. I mean we don't drink 2 liters of likker a day, right? Like we should do in drinking water. Well, most of us don't.

Okay, trying to take a step forward.

If we drink 2 liters per day ... the maximum amount per person should be about twice the limit set. That two times 1.3 milligrams is 2,6 milligrams.

Now there is some arbitrarity here. Because most of us won't drink 2 liters of water. On the other hand, if you cook your potatoes in water with some copper trace elements (< 1.3 mg per liter off course), you might get some in as well.

Two liters to start with. We have to start somewhere. That's 2.6 mg.

A few other baselines. Here's a study on baselines and copper mortality rates. It is in Dutch unfortunately, but I will put it up here anyhow:

http://www.milieu-en-gezondheid.be/onde ... -koper.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I will try to translate it where I can and where needed.

Most important finds:
1. European regulations state it is not safe for a human being to consume more than 5 mg per day;
2. American regulations state it is not safe for a human being to consume more than 10 mg per day.

So we find out a few things:
1. 2.6 milligrams is safe (0,0026 grams that is);
2. 5 milligrams and more may become a health hazard, but probably on the longer run (0,005 grams of copper per day that is);
3. 10 milligrams and more is a health risk. And that's just 0.01 grams per day.

Now, some more baselines:
1. If we drink 2 liter of water per day (including cooking, etc.) with 1 mg of copper, we consume 2 mg of copper per day;
2. That's (see above) 3 to 7 milligrams (0.003 to 0.007 grams) shy of health hazzard boundaries.

Translating this to drinks made in copper stills, we can now start to make a baseline for what a drink can actualy hold as a copper content while still being safe. Well, it depends on the amount of drinks you take in, off course. Here we go:
1. When you drink 1 drink a day, it should not contain more than 0.003 and 0.007 gram of copper;
2. When you drink 2 drinks a day, each drink should hold no more than 0.0015 to 0.0035 grams of copper;
3. Do you drink 3 shots a day? In that case the maximum "copper load" per drink should be between 0.001 and 0.002 grams per glass.

What does a copper particle weight? Good question. Don't know that exactly, but copper powder measures around 400 microns. That's 0.4 millimeter. That's big & filterable. What if we say copper particles that possibly transfer are much smaller. How about 1000 times smaller. That would be 0.0004. Not so easy to filter out. Reference: I have a 0.028 filter under my carbon filter device, to keep the carbon in.

0.4 mm for a big "chunk" of copper getting detached from your copper cooler;
0.00004 mm for a really very small particle, able to travel up with vapours rising;
And anything that's in between.

So if a very small particle would be 0.0004 millimeters in diameter, how many of those 0.4 micron size particles would be needed to make your drink ... poisonous?

0.0004 millimeters with a specific density of 0.89 (comparing one liter of copper to one liter of water at 20 degrees C) would give a weight of around 0.00036 milligrams. Small enough for liquid transfer? Sure. Light enough for vapour speeds causing possilbe contamination? Just look at the smoke of my cigar and how easily it can be blown upwards. Not just when it is hot, also afterwards.

In the alineas above I calculated that with 3 glasses a day, you should have no more than 0.001 grams of copper per drink. If you are European. Folks using the American definition of "hazardous copper ingestion" may choose 0.002 grams per drink.

That's 0.001 (I am European) devided by 0.00036 is 1 devided by 0.36. That means if we get as much as just 3 minute copper particles in our drink, representing just 0.001 of a gram in total, we already run an unhealthy health risk.

And just to get you an idea of what size those copper particles have: 0.4 micron. That's exactly as big as the smoke particles from your cigarette or your cigar. Just three smoke particle size copper particles in your drink, that's all it takes, at three drinks a day on a continuous basis, to develop a toxic condition.

And that's why I vote to have our administrators look at "the rules we live by" again. I am not saying "out" the copper, but I am saying that measures to counteract these potential risks should be brought to the attention of especially newer members.

I have stated a few of the possible treatments I feel are needed in order to work safely (or at least: safer) with copper than many may do at this very moment.

It ain't over till the fat lady farts.

Odin.

[Jimbo]

Dear kind sir, you seem to have much time for pontification, while your still sits neglected and unused, building oxidation...

[Odin]

Amen.

If I were to use my copper alambic.

But I am planning on giving my SS rig a run first.

Pontifex Odinus.

[guittarmaster]

According to the the Institute of Medicine (IOM) of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences.the recommended Dietary Reference Intake (DRI) of copper is between 700ug(.7mg) and 900ug(.9mg) and suggest the upper limit be 10000ug daily. so it sounds like .7mg is good. .9 may be better, but 10mg is just plain silly talk!


So with the previously calculated values of Cu in the highest Cu containing brandy containing 8.01mg/L of Cu you'd still have to drink over a full liter before you passed the upper limit and are NOWHERE near the Cu LD50 and well on your way to the LD50 of ethanol (depending on proof and tolorance)

plus it's worth remembering that your body will naturally flush copper out unless you have the rare genetic disorder Wilson's disease. So if you drink lots of copper one day, take a few days off and you should be fine. Most places will not have 1.3mg/l dissolved Cu in their water. the New Hampshire depart of environmental services limits their water to under 1mg/l due to taste concerns. My local municipal water source publishes their water reports online (yours probably does too, just search online) and my water is WAAAAAAAAAAAy under 1.3mg/L, like <10ppb (sorry but i won't post that link and hand big brother my address ) besides this link also says that just running water 30-60 seconds before filling up a cup of water will flush most of the copper from the line! In short I don't consider the Cu exposure via drinking water a significant source for consideration when determining if a Cu still is safe.

Also Copper sulfate is "insoluble in ethanol". It's not until deep deep tails that enough water is in the distillate that it can dissolve and come over. (blue tails). Cupper 1 can come over but *most* of the highest concentrations should come out with the foreshots and early heads. (or you can wash your column before you distill.

The chronic effects are pretty mild. yes, the 10mg/day value is correct but a) most communities would not have copper in their water at the maximum allowed levels of 1.3mg/l . b) People can taste copper and see dissolved copper at 1mg/l in water. c) The LD 50 is a good estimate for acute toxicity which would require 37.6 g of copper for an average 80kg person, far from the the 10mg of the chronic exposure limit. So if one day you hit 12mg Cu and the next day you don't' drink and have <1mg Cu your yearly average should be fine . Now I wouldn't recommend consuming 12 mg but i also wouldn't recommend having 1L of alcohol in a night either.

gm

[Odin]

Guitar,

We are not talking commercial brandy here. We are talking home made spirits in home made stills. That's where the problems can arrive. They are built differently, run differently, used differently.

Please stop comparing results from a commercial brandy, because that is not the point I am making.

Just as I am not saying copper is bad by definition. Well, actually it is bad by definition. It is a heavy metal and causes copper poisoning, but with a few careful countermeasures these problems can be ammended.

If water is under 1.3 that's fine. Makes you can have a few smoke size copper particles more in your drink. Still not very much, though to get you to that level.

And that certain copper compounds are insollubal, does not mean they don't get fluhed down into your drink.

And yes again, your body gets rid of copper. It actually has a "half time" computation. Great! We can get rid of it. And first symptoms are just mild.

Yep, let's not put into practice a few easy rules on how to treat copper.

No, does not sound good. At least not to me.

I have shown in the posts above that there is:
1. an inherent risk to using copper;
2. that this risk causes potentially very damaging health issues at low levels of contamination;
3. that there is a few easy things we can do to counteract them.

Odin.

[Husker]

0.0004 millimeters with a specific density of 0.89 (comparing one liter of copper to one liter of water at 20 degrees C) would give a weight of around 0.00036 milligrams. Small enough for liquid transfer? Sure. Light enough for vapour speeds causing possilbe contamination? Just look at the smoke of my cigar and how easily it can be blown upwards. Not just when it is hot, also afterwards.

Hmm, I did not realize copper floated SG of copper is is 8.9, not 0.89

[Odin]

Oops! Means we breach the trash hold where copper becomes toxic even 10 times faster!

Sorry!



Odin.

[guittarmaster]

yes Odin. I am comparing our stuff to the commercial distilleries. I'm doing this because it's the best available data to base a decision on. I haven't found a study that analyzed Cu in ethanol from small stills and the study i posted didn't collect data for still size. For all we know they examined small batch distilleries with 100 gallon pot stills only running once a week. We simiply can't *assume* they only analyzed large distilleries with continuous running stills because that would be no more accurate than if we *assume* they were stainless steel, plastic, or lead stills.

We can't *assume* that our spirits are significantly more contaminated or significantly less when we do not have that data. I'm not picking a side when i say that. A question was asked and I'm just looking at the data I can. That's all.

A parable: Would you want your Dr to give you an drug dose based on a gut instinct (our spirits have much more/less CU) or would you want a dose based upon established safe doses derived from animal testing... sure it's not human testing but better than *NO*testing. (assuming our spirits to be similar to commercial distilleries Cu concentration). I also presented the worst case situation for Cu in spirits i could find (the brandy) with which to base the estimate upon because I'm looking at it from a health standpoint. With that in mind I came to a conclusion that copper used in the distillation process and it's leachable concentrations do not pose a greater health concern than the ethanol itself.

I'm %100 open to revise that position in light of better data. That's how knowledge grows.


GM

[Doogie]

We, as homedistillers usually do a run, then put our copperware away for a week,

Regards, Odin.

You put your gear away for a whole week

Ya, i just put mine away for the season ... it was about to unionize and file a slave labor complaint on me

[TDS]

I use 3 inch ss for my column but my boka head is 3 inch copper L
with a 3/8 copper coil on top...

You have a better chance of going down to Hell and
starting a a huge snowball fight than of me vacuum packing my coil and still head, or soaking in booze, or packing in nitrogen gas.

I rinse mine with heads, then distilled water.
then I hang it on the wall.

I feel pretty good!

[Odin]

Ah, so much copper addiction! Can't beat that!

It just looks to darn good!

Did I just tell you I smoke cigars? I guess a few posts ago I think I mentioned it.

Probably I inhale more than 3 smoke particle size smoke particles per cigar.

And even though cigars don't look as good as copper, I won't put them down!



Regards, Odin.

[varocketry]

ODIN:

Here's one more topic to throw into this mix since it's directly related to fermentation.

The BEER crowd will clean and rinse the YEAST after fermentation to remove trub. THey will then use a Yeast Starter routine to prepare for a good strong start to the next batch.

Our UJSSM recipe doesn't do anything like this. And, my ferments have slowed down and been less vigorous after each batch I've made.
Maybe it would benefit from these common BEER CROWD practices.

WHat do you all think?

[Odin]

Sounds good, Van! Think this post belongs in the topic on Heads, though!



Odin