Home Distiller

coastershiner wrote:I completley wrap my mason lids PTFE tape. Easy. Safe. No big deal.

I read through this whole thread and was thinking the same thing!

I tried wrapping some lids with ptfe plumbing tape a week ago. Went back today to find the white tape is now translucent around the edges of the lid. Most of the product in the mason jars is in the 100-120 p range.

I'm not feeling to good about the ptfe tape solution on the mason jar lids. When I stripped the tape off the lid, the plastic under the tape was wet with ethanol.

Anyone else encounter this?

zach wrote:I tried wrapping some lids with ptfe plumbing tape a week ago. Went back today to find the white tape is now translucent around the edges of the lid. Most of the product in the mason jars is in the 100-120 p range.

I'm not feeling to good about the ptfe tape solution on the mason jar lids. When I stripped the tape off the lid, the plastic under the tape was wet with ethanol.

Anyone else encounter this?

I've seen some vapor creep under the tape on other things but don't use it on mason jars. I have taken to collecting and airing in mason jars but have a lot of bottles collected and pretty much have just switched to those with corks instead.

did not even consider that it might be a risk, seen so many on here that uses it that I just assumed it was ok.
Balls. have to look in to getting more gallon jugs and cork stoppers so.

foolishly I started this hobby thinking I'd save money, to late to stop now, more stuff to buy, onwards and upwards

Those PTFE discs from USPlastics are fairly inexpensive and easily solve the problem of vapor or liquid contact with the lid. I've decided to go with them for my aging jars (pickle jars) as well. I've been using cork stoppers with the pickle jars, but have since found that they don't really offer any advantage - that is, they don't breathe as I originally thought. The 3.5" cork stoppers are $4+ and the PTFE discs are somewhere around 50 or 60 cents each. Seems a no-brainer. I've been using the 2.725"(?) size disc for regular mason jars and like the way they work. I'll be ordering some larger ones for my pickle jars.

I have been working and modifying and experimenting with my oak lids for awhile now and am convinced they are an advantage to oaking and aging a spirit. I started a test jar about 4 months ago using white whiskey only. No wood no nothing just an oak lid and after time it has acquired a very mild oak taste to it which tells me it is breathing and adding flavor to the spirit. Next test will be to see the difference using once used lids versus new oak lids to see the difference. It seems the thicker lids are a little better as they don't seem to warp as easily and don't let too much alcohol go to the angels. The current lid is 1/2 inch thick white oak toasted at 350 degrees for a couple of hours. The hardest part is cutting the thin lip that forms the seal on the jar. Since I have access to a lathe it is not a problem but I know there are a lot of woodworkers out there that could probably make some sort of jig to use a router to make them I have a few that I have used the PTFE tape to make the seal a bit better and have not seen any change in the tape, I will take another look at them today and see if any transparency has taken place. Just a thought, Are there different grades of the white plumbers tape. I get mine at the local hydraulic shop and it is marked PTFE, plus it is only 77 cents a roll. I believe that for long term storage after the final flavor has developed I will go to the PTFE lids for a tight seal, or bottles with a cork stopper, but will keep a couple of jars with the oak lids just for reference over time.

Swedish Pride wrote:....Balls....foolishly I started this hobby thinking I'd save money, to late to stop now, more stuff to buy, onwards and upwards

Now THAT's a quote we all could agree upon.

Fortunately, the knowledge gained and the quality of your product outweigh the cost and time investments.
ss

still_stirrin wrote:

Swedish Pride wrote:....Balls....foolishly I started this hobby thinking I'd save money, to late to stop now, more stuff to buy, onwards and upwards

Now THAT's a quote we all could agree upon.

Fortunately, the knowledge gained and the quality of your product outweigh the cost and time investments.
ss

The way I look at it a jar of super premium vodka is $50 plus tax. A bottle of cheap vodka here in Wa is $16-18 after taxes. At that rate this hobby pays for itself pretty damn quickly no matter how much it costs.

Corene, I think it could be a fairly simple operation to make those lids with a router with a little trial and error experimentation. I would think the simplest thing to do would be to cut them with a hole saw to the proper diameter - that is, if there is a hole saw available of the proper width. Then, some way to gig it up and cut the seal part on a router table.

How thin do you make the seal part of the lid so that the threaded ring will get a decent grip. Another thought - how about putting one of the PTFE disc on top of your wooden lid to prevent vapor escape. Does the vapor really need to breathe out of the wood, or would it work just as well if it were simply allowed to be absorbed into the wood and migrate no further?

Just some thoughts.

corene1 wrote:

cranky wrote:Corene1 did some experimenting with oak lids and last I read had problems with elongation due to moisture that could potentially break a jar if they are kept wet so I think the project was abandoned.

Yes , I am guilty as charged. What I have found out is you must cut the pieces and then soak them for a couple of days then let them dry. That will get rid of most of the warping that will take place. After that I toast them at 350 for a few hours then do my shaping. Make the flat sealing area about 3/32 thick or the lid won't have enough thread to screw onto the jar and give it lots of clearance on the inside diameter that will go inside the jar itself. the vapor in and out will re-swell the lid a bunch and it can crack the jar. It has happened once to me. give it at least 1/16 inch clearance and a little more won't hurt a bit. They are great for aging on oak but over time you will lose a lot of spirit though evaporation so probably not the best idea for long term storage. I lost about 5% in 3 months this summer with my jars stored outside in my shed.

PC190001.JPG

Through that hole in the center, maybe place a white oak toasted dowel rod. Make it long enough to go 2/3 of the way through the likker. Let it hang out the top a half inch. The capillary action should cause losses and aeration.

S-Cackalacky wrote:Corene, I think it could be a fairly simple operation to make those lids with a router with a little trial and error experimentation. I would think the simplest thing to do would be to cut them with a hole saw to the proper diameter - that is, if there is a hole saw available of the proper width. Then, some way to gig it up and cut the seal part on a router table.

How thin do you make the seal part of the lid so that the threaded ring will get a decent grip. Another thought - how about putting one of the PTFE disc on top of your wooden lid to prevent vapor escape. Does the vapor really need to breathe out of the wood, or would it work just as well if it were simply allowed to be absorbed into the wood and migrate no further?

Just some thoughts.

I make the lips 1/8 inch thick and that gives the ring quite a bit of grip on the threads. As far as using a ptfe seal along with the wood, I just don't know. I see more experimentation coming. On the other hand I believe the slight breathing effect causes a slight oxidation to the spirit and mellows it out a bit more.

To Butal , those loss numbers were with the original thinner lid. I have since graduated to 1/2 inch thick lids and loss has dropped dramatically.

Been following this thread for some time now. I have a stack of lids I never use, except when I grab a pint to bring to a friends, the lid is used to travel there, and it's taken off, not replaced til the jar is empty oddly enough.

Well, I found a jar I had the intention of doing that with. At the time I couldn't remember where I put it and just grabbed another. Found it now. Stored upright, no liquid contact with the lid. It was about 50% abv when I filled it. Popped the lid off the other day, and the seal was very tacky feeling. It joined my fors collection. So seems even without direct contact, it's a no go.

I use all 1 gallon jugs for long term with natural cork stopper. Half gallon wide mouth with ptfe wrapped lids for oaking. I also found some new one quart glass milk jugs, fit a #17 cork perfect for short or long term storage.

Pic with two to be sent off...bit of butcher string wrapped around cork before sealing makes it easy to unwind and open. Usually don't seal, but since they are being sent off...

I am yet to graduate to Mason jars, as I'm still experimenting with smaller volumes at this stage, but I believe in the benefits of a little natural evaporation.

I found out the hard way about oak getting wet and shrinking. My perfect circles turned into ovals and the first lot had to be scrapped.
I'm doing a four month test at the moment and I'm not sure I'm happy with the rate of evaporation at this point. I'm using 1/2 inch thickness, but could go up to an inch. The knobs on the top have end-grain orientated vertically, so this may be facilitating too much evaporation.
Wax definitely helps. I think if I get overall too much loss with this batch, I'll coat the tops in wax (just as I've done with the smaller test tube stoppers.

The other experiment is simply an oak stave with a whittled snorkel which protrudes out from the lid. I've waxed the top of the oak lid so that the snorkel is the only pathway.
This experiment is only 72 hours old, so I'm not sure how much loss I can contribute to the stick just taking in spirit, but it seems from the outset its evaporating rather quickly.
I'm using some undrinkable abomination which was a failed barrel experiment with whisky and Madeira (don't ask), which is why its so dark.

Anyways, since this is the 'What not to Use' forum, I'll add that I made an early mistake of using a cotton baking string to secure my oak. Oh man, liquor really likes climbing up that stuff. Within a couple of days, the lids were wet and most of the string outside of the bottle was soaking.

that is a hell of a first post SaltyStaves .
looks like you brought your own saddle,
thank's don't be a stranger

cob wrote:that is a hell of a first post SaltyStaves .
looks like you brought your own saddle,
thank's don't be a stranger

Thanks. I'm trying to get a command of oak before I build my still. Hopefully by the time I'm producing my first distillate, I'll be confident in the maturation side of things.

Is this a crazy thought for lids?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-Stainless- ... 1863118499" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Stainless steel foil. A meter should make 9-10 lids. Thinking we could just cut squares and screw down the lids over the top.

aceswired wrote:....Is this a crazy thought for lids?...

Yup.....crazy.
But, YMMV.
ss

I was in the local antique/nickncack shop this morning and look what I found. Old glass lids for mason jars. There is 3 wide mouth and maybe 2 dozen small mouth. Origanally they used a replacable rubber ring to seal but I'm gonna wrap the top of the jar with ptfe tape for storage and just a ring and lid for aging. Might be able to find them on ebay.

So I know this won't help the folks that are determined to use mason jars, but if you make friends with your local recyclers and offer to swap em a case of budweiser for every 24 wild turkey bottles they find with the cap still on, you'll be getting a nice cork sealed glass booze container for dirt cheap. Evan Williams single barrel and bulleit also have cork caps. A little off topic, but food for thought anyway.

Just a little update on my jar with the oak snorkel. I've estimated the loss to be about 2% per week, which is rather unsustainable. Its also winter down under, so things could be a whole lot worse.
I'm quite happy that I am not getting loss through the lid or the ptfe tape. The charred oak part of the stave above the tide mark is constantly glossy and wet and the (raw) oak snorkel is damp, but not glossy. The evaporation looks to be going straight up through the pores.

Obviously there is a huge variable here with whether or not the pores are blocked with tylose. That would make consistency very difficult to manage, as a snorkel with lots of open pores is going to evaporate quicker than one that is plugged.

I might try whittling down some snorkels in the middle to create a choke-point and see whether that can slow things down a bit, but ultimately, I think a solution where the snorkel is above the tide-mark, but still contained inside the vessel, is the way forwards. Any evaporation through the snorkel, will recycle within the jar. Combined with an oak lid that works in harmony to remove vapor and introduce new air, it should help to clear out unwanted congeners which the spirit won't take back once vaporized.

Thats the theory at least.
I hope I'm right, because this would be considerably easy to manage. Making staves that connect to the lid are a bitch.

Misneac wrote:So I know this won't help the folks that are determined to use mason jars, but if you make friends with your local recyclers and offer to swap em a case of budweiser for every 24 wild turkey bottles they find with the cap still on, you'll be getting a nice cork sealed glass booze container for dirt cheap. Evan Williams single barrel and bulleit also have cork caps. A little off topic, but food for thought anyway.

Ha! A buddy of mine is a Turkey fanatic. I have a few cases of them myself.

i have a bar tender save me hennessy bottles and where the medallion is I put chalk board paint and use a bistro chalk marker to write what's in it.

Most glassware we get from the analytical labs have PTFE lined lids, and they give it out for free.
2 oz to 1 liter jars in clear or amber glass.

S-Cackalacky wrote:I've been using these - http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.a ... &catid=720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The 2.725" size fits a regular mason jar and the 3.5" size fits a large mouth mason jar.

I use these for aging on glass - http://www.widgetco.com/jar-cork-stoppers-standard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The 3.5" (size 48) fits a 1 gallon large mouth pickle jar.

Are these discs used along with the cap and screw on lid? Just as a barrier between liquid and the lid with the plastisol seal?

buflowing wrote:S-Cack,

Have you noticed any evaporation loss with the 0.010" disks? Do you use them alone or backed up with the metal lid? I've been using 0.04" and 0.06" disks alone. They seal nice. Better alone than with metal lid as backup. Can shake it up without leakage. I've wanted to check evaporation over time but I sample everything too often to get a feel for what's going on. Anecdotally, flavor seems to intensify over time, indicating some vapor transmission going on.

I also use the same thicknesses as liners for my jug caps.

Update: With 0.04" thick ptfe discs held on by ring on mason jars, I've experienced an annual loss is 3 to 4% abv in my basement at 65F and about 50 to 60%RH.

I've been wondering lately about the mason jar lids that have a removable disc in them -- might it be possible to replace those discs with wood?

My main concern is that they'd have to be pretty thin, which might cause too much loss, but I really wish my jars could breathe just a little bit. I'm getting to the point where I have too many stashed and it takes for ever to get through them all to let them breathe once in a while.

raketemensch wrote:I've been wondering lately about the mason jar lids that have a removable disc in them -- might it be possible to replace those discs with wood?

My main concern is that they'd have to be pretty thin, which might cause too much loss, but I really wish my jars could breathe just a little bit. I'm getting to the point where I have too many stashed and it takes for ever to get through them all to let them breathe once in a while.

our resident stilling goddess have done the wood ones, think they were ok, can't recall the thread

I think Corene did that with great success.

raketemensch wrote: I'm getting to the point where I have too many stashed...

Not a bad problem to have.
Check out oak lids, they only need to be thin on the edge for the jar ring, the rest can be left thicker.
I've been using the PTFE, but would like to make a set of wood caps sometime soon.

Oak lids for the mason jars are a decent idea. And had been done but if your making enough that your considering this why not make some badmo barrels. Easy to do, cheap and work a treat apparently. Just my 2 cents mind you.


Yak