Interested in speaking to people on the Art of Distilling

[W Pappy]

I would do it only if you showed where the Gov.intentionally poisoned big shipments of shine during prohibition
and killed many people during that period.

[HDNB]

I did some more reading on lead poisoning / moonshine and found some info, but it is funny how the disinformation is written into the reports from either heath agencies or media, looking for some hype...still no death yet...

case in point:

a report from the CDC starts with "the use of automobile radiators" ...ok hands up, who here uses a radiator (*on edit* in the vapour path)???

secondly the "editor" (not the doctor) says : "Editorial Note: The findings in the ADPH investigation underscore the adverse health effects associated with consumption of moonshine. Specifically, this problem can result from the leaching of lead from solder used in radiators or the adjoining copper pipe during distillation; moonshine may contain up to 74 ug/L of lead (1)."

associated with the consumption of moonshine??? NOOO... with the consumption of moonshine that was processed through an automobile radiator.....should that editorial note simply have the accurate second sentence and do away with the broad strokes of the first sentence.

Elevated Blood Lead Levels Associated with Illicitly Distilled Alcohol -- Alabama, 1990-1991

The use of automobile radiators containing lead-soldered parts in the illicit distillation of alcohol (i.e., "moonshine") is an important source of lead poisoning among persons in some rural Alabama counties. From March 5 through October 26, 1991, eight persons were diagnosed with elevated blood lead levels (BLLs) at a local hospital and were reported to the notifiable disease surveillance system maintained by the Alabama Department of Public Health (ADPH). None of these patients had known histories of occupational or other potential sources of lead exposure, but all reported recent histories of moonshine ingestion. This report summarizes the results of an investigation of these cases conducted by the ADPH during December 1991.

A case-patient was defined as any person aged greater than or equal to 17 years who presented to the hospital from January 1, 1990, through December 31, 1991, and had a BLL greater than or equal to 15 ug/dL. Laboratory records of specimens submitted for blood lead determination, and medical records were reviewed at the hospital. In addition to the eight patients reported to the ADPH, review of laboratory records identified one patient with a BLL of 35 ug/dL during November 1990.

Patients ranged in age from 28 to 64 years (median: 33 years); five were female. Five patients resided in the county in which the hospital is located, and four lived in adjacent counties.

All nine patients had been evaluated for alcohol-related medical conditions at the hospital. Manifestations included generalized tonic-clonic seizures (six), microcytic anemia (five) (hematocrit mean: 32.1%), encephalopathy (two), upper extremity weakness (one), and abdominal colic (one). BLLs ranged from 16 ug/dL to 259 ug/dL (median: 67 ug/dL).

Seven patients required hospitalization for 48 hours or longer (range: 2-18 days). Three of these received chelation therapy; initial BLLs were 67, 228, and 259 ug/dL. One patient, whose BLL was 67 ug/dL, died during hospitalization from alcohol-withdrawal syndrome complicated by aspiration pneumonia.

Patients reported moonshine ingestion ranging from 0.2 L per day to 1.5 L per day. No specimens of moonshine consumed by the patients were available for analysis. However, the lead contents of specimens of moonshine confiscated from two radiator-containing stills in the county in 1991 were 7400 ug/L and 9700 ug/L, compared with nondetectable amounts (less than 1.0 ug/L) in municipal water from the county. Consumption of 0.5 L per day of moonshine containing 9700 ug/L lead would result in a steady state BLL of approximately 190 ug/dL. *

Reported by: T Dix, S Walker, MD, Crenshaw County Hospital, Luverne; D Cosby, Alabama Alcohol Beverage Control, Andalusia; CH Woernle, MD, State Epidemiologist, Alabama Dept of Public Health. Div of Field Epidemiology, Epidemiology Program Office; Lead Poisoning Prevention Br, Div of Environmental Hazards and Health Effects, National Center for Environmental Health and Injury Control, CDC.

Editorial Note

Editorial Note: The findings in the ADPH investigation underscore the adverse health effects associated with consumption of moonshine. Specifically, this problem can result from the leaching of lead from solder used in radiators or the adjoining copper pipe during distillation; moonshine may contain up to 74 ug/L of lead (1).

In adults, manifestations of lead intoxication include gastrointestinal, hematopoietic, renal, reproductive, and neurologic findings (e.g., peripheral neuropathy and encephalopathy) (1-3). Because signs and symptoms of lead poisoning may be nonspecific, the relative contribution of lead and alcohol toxicity to illness in these patients could not be determined. However, overt signs and symptoms of neurotoxicity rarely occur in adults when BLLs are less than 40 ug/dL (1). Thus, the seizures observed in these patients with BLLs less than 40 ug/dL may have been related to alcohol withdrawal rather than lead toxicity.

This cluster of patients with elevated BLLs was detected through review of notifiable disease surveillance data. In Alabama, elevated BLLs (greater than or equal to 15 ug/dL) have been a notifiable condition since December 1990. In 1991, 612 persons aged greater than or equal to 17 years with BLLs greater than or equal to 15 ug/dL were reported to the ADPH notifiable disease registry. Of these, the two highest values (228 ug/dL and 259 ug/dL) were from patients in this cluster.

The nine patients identified in this cluster may underrepresent the number of lead toxicity cases related to moonshine ingestion in the counties involved in this study and in others throughout Alabama. Although the number of illegal stills operating in Alabama is unknown, Alabama Alcohol Beverage Control destroyed 94 stills in 1991, including 50 stills in the county where the hospital is located and in two adjacent counties (D. Cosby, Alabama Alcohol Beverage Control, personal communication, 1992). Since a typical four-barrel still can produce 75-95 L of moonshine per week, a substantially higher number of persons may be at risk for lead toxicity from moonshine ingestion. Ongoing surveillance efforts are directed toward further characterizing risk factors for elevated BLLs and may assist in determining the scope of lead poisoning from moonshine ingestion among Alabama residents.

Because of the illegal source of the alcohol, patients may be reluctant to admit to moonshine ingestion. Therefore, clinicians, particularly in rural areas, should suspect moonshine ingestion when treating alcohol-abusing patients, both to detect and treat the adverse effects of lead poisoning and to direct alcohol-prevention efforts.

References

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Toxicologic profile for lead. Atlanta: US Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, 1992.

Baker EL, Landrigan PJ, Barbour AG, et al. Occupational lead poisoning in the United States: clinical and biochemical findings related to blood lead levels. Br J Ind Med 1979;36:314-22.

Goldman RH, Baker EL, Hannan M, Kamerow DB. Lead poisoning in automobile radiator mechanics. N Engl J Med 1987;317:214-8.

Assuming an equilibrium blood lead/dietary intake slope of 0.04 ug/dL per ug/day.

[dstaines]

There's quite a few on here who use automobile radiators, but only to radiate heat away from the cooling water that is recirculated through the condenser. Nobody on here should be putting alcohol vapor or distillate in contact with anything but stainless steel, copper, lead free solder, and safe sealant materials like PTFE or flour paste.

The danger from lead in the radiator comes when someone hooks the radiator right up to the vapor path of the still to condense the liquor directly.

[HDNB]

I think the association of a home craft distiller with a morbid alcohol consumer is the buggaboo that is pissing me off with this disinformation.
I mean sure, lots of craft distillers drink too much. So do lots of other people. Just because we may (as in possibly) have a larger supply of better quality booze, does not make a person a "piss in your pants, i just just traded my food stamps for another shot of lysol kind of drunk." That is a much larger social problem.
To be lumped in with a profiteer that would use dangerous equipment to mass produce swill to take advantage of unfortunates like in that example^^^ is as repugnant and morally reprehensible to me (everyone here) as it is to every other normal functioning human being on the planet.

That's why safety and education is first and formost on this site. We are not judging anyone, people are going to do what they are going to do. At least there is a resource like this one that can help people learn as safely as possible. It seems to make a little more sense to me to teach someone rather than criminalizing a productive citizen who is making a legal product from legal ingredients for his own consumption in the comfort of his own home.

The bootlegger that sold to these unfortunates^^^??? should be drawn and quartered at the town square. As should any legal liquor provider or employee that sells to a person in that situation.

HDNB (stepping down off soap box now)

(*on more edit* i case i sounded like i was bitching out the OP, thats not the case. The rant is directed more at the perception that what we are doing....is totally not what we are doing.
A nat geo show on real home distilling could help dispel some of the myths that surround the mystery of the art. I'll do whatever i can to help Dez show the facts.)

[bellybuster]

any standard new guy sure wouldn't get the free research this cat's gettin.
3 pages, wow

[MichiganCornhusker]

...safety and education is first and formost on this site. We are not judging anyone, people are going to do what they are going to do. At least there is a resource like this one that can help people learn as safely as possible. It seems to make a little more sense to me to teach someone rather than criminalizing a productive citizen who is making a legal product from legal ingredients for his own consumption in the comfort of his own home. .

I don't have a problem with the use of automotive radiators for product condensers remaining illegal.

[HDNB]

any standard new guy sure wouldn't get the free research this cat's gettin.
3 pages, wow

nobody else has brought a nat geo Tv programme that could spread a positive word.

[shadylane]

any standard new guy sure wouldn't get the free research this cat's gettin.
3 pages, wow

A new distiller would be making alcohol and need to be led in the right direction for safety's sake.
This young lady is wanting information for a documentary.
She needs links, information and "spoon feeding"
Definition of spoon feeding: Feeding a newbie info one spoonful at a time, because they didn't research it on their own.
I'm guessing she has more than one iron in the fire and doesn't have time to research and practice distillation at our level.
Helping her would be to our advantage.......

[aquavita]

Helping her would be to our advantage.......

+1

[sdpoage]

+2. Guess I'm a little braver than I should be but what the hell. Sent the email to the link for dez. Will be waiting impatiently for a response. But for the meantime everything has been put up just in case. Guess if the feds show up we will all be warned when I scream it to the whole forum. So I will wait and see. Good thing I didn't have anything ready to run or ferment for awhile.

[jb-texshine]

Cute little quip but really, all hobbies are obsessions. If not we would not pursue them at this level.
Anyone of you have the ability to help bring this to fruition. Change never happens without a level of defiance.

Talking head snippets do nothing to serve the goal.

True....
I talked to dez today and although I'm only a beginner I'm in...look at the legalization of herb movement...it didn't happen because old hippies stayed quiet, it happened because people from all walks of life stepped forward and said these laws are unjust and unwarranted.
That being said I am also a member of NORML and plan on joining the home distillers association.
Edit to include: ps. If I go to jail somebody go my bail...please.

[T-Pee]

Dez, on a different note. You could probably get some insight into individual personalities here by clicking on individual member names and then searching their posts. might be time consuming, but worth some effort.

Oh shit, Cack.

tp

[googe]

Well done sdpoade, good to see someone step up to the plate for all of us . Id do it but might be a long trip to interview me

[S-Cackalacky]

Dez, on a different note. You could probably get some insight into individual personalities here by clicking on individual member names and then searching their posts. might be time consuming, but worth some effort.

Oh shit, Cack.

tp

Oh BTW, there's this guy here named T-Pee - maybe not such a good idea.

[MoonBreath]

Welcome to HD!I hope you are actually readn and learning now that you've become a member ..
Not enough knowledge about you or your work for anyone to want to open up their house to you ..Use your REAL name and company or associates involved! You have nothing at risk, why are you hiding anything if you and your project is totally legitimate?
Thanks, but no thanks.

[GrassHopper]

+1 MoonBreath. Transparency.......seems like we've heard that before, eh?

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Welcome to HD!I hope you are actually readn and learning now that you've become a member ..
Not enough knowledge about you or your work for anyone to want to open up their house to you ..Use your REAL name and company or associates involved! You have nothing at risk, why are you hiding anything if you and your project is totally legitimate?
Thanks, but no thanks.

She has shared her real name, it's shown right there in her email address. Which you can use to find info on her and her work.



http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4839833/

[GrassHopper]

Sure nuff.......my apologies to Dez. Thanks Smurf for pointing that out.

[thecroweater]

Not super sure this thread belongs in the welcome centre past the first few posts but anyway, welcome here. I would not normally inquire to the identity to anyone here but given the nature of your said intent members are for certain going to want to check and recheck your credentials. I'll assume you are who you say you are and assume you are the journalist know as XXXXX Kadra on certain pages.
You are likely to raise eyebrows quoting moonshine poisoning figures I can tell you, it is for the most part pure propaganda of the most misleading type. I use to be on the Admin team of an Australian distillation forum and we actively investigated every claim made of poisoning and deaths connected with home distilled spirits. The last yr I was involved with this (2013) there were from memory 6 incidents reported in the media complete with all the hype and screams of murder. Naturally as a distilling community we are very concerned about such reports and used all our combined resources to thoroughly investigate them. Of those 6 mentioned all were deaths not caused or related to home distilled spirits with the exception of one who consumed some arrack cut with thinners and/or methanol consumed in Indonesia meaning the said person arrived back in Australia in a very bad way. Of another two from Tasmania reported to be killed by some bad "moonshine" of a white creamy consistency it was found that they had raided an Opium field and died from consuming Opium milk. Three (nearly 4) from QLD died from bad shine that turned out to be commercial methanol that the father of some of the victims had acquired for a bio-diesel plant. I all these cases no retraction or correction was issued through the mainstream media and the truth was only released though police reports on line through ABC on line. considering a few pollies attempted to cash in on this misinformation you can understand why such reports hold no credence and tend to annoy the home distiller. Fact is in Oz I have never heard of a case of a death where home distilled spirits was proven to be the cause. Now in that said year (2013) try to imagine how many hundreds (possibly thousands) of deaths occurred as a result of consuming legally bought alcohol and you will soon see why this subject is so irksome to the homedistiller constantly facing all the propaganda and misinformation.
As already said you can gain some great insight reading the mandatory reading section and you will very soon see we are collectively very concerned with the safety and quality of products and given the bottom line is not an issue we can generally make tighter cuts than would be economical, same goes for fermenting methods and ingredients. Why make crap that will make you sick when we can just nip down the store and buy that

[woodshed]

Maybe the site should consider a media topic?

[HDNB]

Hmmm....now that is a damn fine idea.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Maybe the site should consider a media topic?

+1

[Saltbush Bill]

Dez something to think about and a couple of questions I need to ask myself before I believing the rubbish fed to us by most governments of the world are.

A: Why do we not read of deaths from home distillation and the consumption of home distilled spirits in New Zealand where the hobby is perfectly legal and has been for some time now.
I believe there have been no deaths to date. Your own research should be able to confirm this. Please let me know if you find a different outcome.

B: If it is as easy to make bad alcohol which may result in poisoning or death as the general public are lead to believe, does it not seem logical that the Scottish , Irish and Italians, just to name a few nationalities, would have poisoned them selves out of existence centuries ago?
These people and many others were distilling on a regular basis at home and in the fields with very crude equipment a long long time ago without apparent harm.
In fact the "moonshine" these early pioneers of distilling made are now known by individual names such as Scotch Whiskey, Irish Whiskey and Grappa. They are now loved and in popular demand world wide.

[chris_zx2]

That really puts things into perspective. So what about the people who do sell it? Do you think they are also passionate for it, or do it purely for profit? Is that part of the reason why there have been cases with deaths, lead poisoning from moonshine?

Can I ask if the majority of you are from the city or country?

There's likely as much lead in the worst still as there is in your average water lines.
Regardless of this, there are idiots everywhere; I'd be hard pressed to find a hobby that hasn't led to some kind of death. How many people working on cars have had their jack fail and been crushed.
There are people cooking with poisonous blowfish that could kill someone easily.
How about death from food poisoning (salmonella) that can happen in a restaurant?
Or a gardener that uses potassium nitrate wrong? Or leaving wet leaves in a garbage bag in the garage and burning down the house.
And as a contractor I've seen countless examples of diy home improvement that could lead to the death of entire families.
I can give you a million examples of people being harmed or dying from making bad decisions. Doesn't mean everyone will.

[MoonBreath]

Been plenty of folks asking for help with books, tv shows, etc ...
All disappeared after a few posts with no progress updates ..
What or who shares in the profits and royalties?..You are looking to sell /profit from your work aren't you ..All donors ought to be paid imo.

[Dez]

any standard new guy sure wouldn't get the free research this cat's gettin.
3 pages, wow

A new distiller would be making alcohol and need to be led in the right direction for safety's sake.
This young lady is wanting information for a documentary.
She needs links, information and "spoon feeding"
Definition of spoon feeding: Feeding a newbie info one spoonful at a time, because they didn't research it on their own.
I'm guessing she has more than one iron in the fire and doesn't have time to research and practice distillation at our level.
Helping her would be to our advantage.......

Thanks Shadylane! We have been very busy with all the research as we are currently working on several programs at the same time, so I hope that everyone can understand that while most basic info seems pretty simple to you guys, I've just began looking into the topic. That being said, we don't need to know the exact chemistry of it all ...it's more about portraying the distinction between the art/craft and the illegal sale for profit, which will become apparent from the characters themselves and storylines. Of course they will speak about the chemistry of it all and how it works, how it's different from the 'badly' distilled alcohol out there...

Also I just want to say thank you for the members who have contacted me so far. All information has been very interesting and very helpful. I may not be able to get back to everyone, but really appreciate you reaching out and helping. I will keep you all updated when possible.

Much appreciated!
Dez

[Dez]

Not super sure this thread belongs in the welcome centre past the first few posts but anyway, welcome here. I would not normally inquire to the identity to anyone here but given the nature of your said intent members are for certain going to want to check and recheck your credentials. I'll assume you are who you say you are and assume you are the journalist know as XXXXX Kadra on certain pages.
You are likely to raise eyebrows quoting moonshine poisoning figures I can tell you, it is for the most part pure propaganda of the most misleading type. I use to be on the Admin team of an Australian distillation forum and we actively investigated every claim made of poisoning and deaths connected with home distilled spirits. The last yr I was involved with this (2013) there were from memory 6 incidents reported in the media complete with all the hype and screams of murder. Naturally as a distilling community we are very concerned about such reports and used all our combined resources to thoroughly investigate them. :

Hi there,
I appreciate your concern about the portrayal of this theme, which I completely understand. I can assure you that any research we do and show on Tv is thoroughly done. The cases I mentioned from Georgia, were directly spoken from the horse's mouth - medical professional who work in the field. The moonshine that was consumed was of course sold by people who do this for profit,not as a hobby, where traces of lead and other harmful products were found at the lab.

We realize that there is a difference between the people who do this as a hobby and for a profit, and we want to show this distinction. However what we can't do is make an investigative program on how the government might be involved in badnaming the craft etc. While it will be great a program and I'm sure the government may be involved in this and many other things, this is not the type of program we are doing at the moment. The best way to get people to listen and to be interested in seeing something is to show them both sides of the coin and decide for themselves. So if hobby distilling is completely different from any other forms of alcohol distilling, which I can see it is, then this will show.

I'd appreciate if you don't use my name from my personal pages online, which I'm sure you can understand. I've given everyone my full name and an email they can contact me on. I'm happy to be contacted via this methods or answer any questions.

Thanks,
Dez

[shadylane]

Some thing that hasn't been said.
I can legally make 200 gallons of beer or wine a year.
But I can't legally remove the water or impurities from my beer or wine.

[Jimbo]

haha, that about sums it up good shady

[shadylane]

You have to keep it simple, when a short amount of air time is all you "might" have to make the point.