der wo wrote:Yes, the Navy always spent 1000$ per bottle for their soldiers.
I think, original Naval Rum was always the cheapest possible Rum the Navy could get. So I think it was molasses rum distilled without cuts and dilution down to gunpowder proof. Stored in a barrel perhaps with some spices and sweeteners to mask the young and low quality taste. And when the more economical continuous columns came up, no drop was potstilled anymore. Probably all the soldiers liked the new cleaner taste. Noone looked back with romantic feelings.
I understand if you want a dark flavorful Rum and if you want to use additives. But to name it "Naval" is pure marketing. Don't belive the hype.
The first step to a flavorful Rum would be to avoid any type of sugar and use molasses only.
Funny statement Der Wo!
Saying "use molasses only" as though molasses isn't a sugar source.
I know (I think) you mean avoid processed sugar.
So using 100% Sugar Daddy's Panela to make rum fits in where with your thinking?
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:14 am
by der wo
nerdybrewer wrote:Saying "use molasses only" as though molasses isn't a sugar source.
I know (I think) you mean avoid processed sugar.
So using 100% Sugar Daddy's Panela to make rum fits in where with your thinking?
Molasses is a sugar source. Grain too.
Why panela? I don't have anything against panela, but to get the most possible taste you need something with much flavor and little fermentable sugar. And speaking about Rum that's molasses. Panela is cooked sugar cane juice. So it contains all the fermentable sugar of the sugar canes. Molasses is cooked sugar cane juice minus much of the sugars. More taste per sugar. And this is how the most Rum is made. Molasses and water. And then perhaps other trash from the sugar production like skimmings. And then either distilled to 90% or higher for clean Rum or distilled lower for more flavor.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:24 am
by der wo
BTW and a bit off-topic, an interesting independent Rum bottler for 100% pure potstilled rum and high proof bottled is "Habitation Velier". Google it. On the bottle normally is a pic of the still, an esters or congeners count number (in gramm per liter pure alc Edit: But I think they mean ppm/parts per million), sometimes the amount of angels share...
But no sugar and no spices and no caramel coloring.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:25 am
by Pikey
I gave my reasons for the additional sugar here :
Pikey wrote:OK - so here we go ! I have a little "thin" backset (dunder - fresh) from a Bacardi (ish)- probably around 12 litres - That is going in the Tub. Now Molasses - I'm going in with 3 Litres for the trial run and 3.5 kg sugar (taking the molasses to be around 50% sugar.) The extra sugar is to compensate for my lack of "Skummings" and to make up for my perception that there has been more sugar extracted from the molasses I bought than at the distillery. I will try to check the PH and adjust if neccessary to between 5 & 6. EC1118 and some nutrient and air. Water to 25 litres.
That will get started tomorrow if I find time. Do not expect a run for a while, my ferments take some time as a rule.
However, now I have acquire some muscovado sugar, which I feel my have some of the other traces in it, I shall use that when it arrives.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:55 am
by der wo
Pikey wrote:I gave my reasons for the additional sugar here :
Pikey wrote:OK - so here we go ! I have a little "thin" backset (dunder - fresh) from a Bacardi (ish)- probably around 12 litres - That is going in the Tub. Now Molasses - I'm going in with 3 Litres for the trial run and 3.5 kg sugar (taking the molasses to be around 50% sugar.) The extra sugar is to compensate for my lack of "Skummings" and to make up for my perception that there has been more sugar extracted from the molasses I bought than at the distillery. I will try to check the PH and adjust if neccessary to between 5 & 6. EC1118 and some nutrient and air. Water to 25 litres.
That will get started tomorrow if I find time. Do not expect a run for a while, my ferments take some time as a rule.
However, now I have acquire some muscovado sugar, which I feel my have some of the other traces in it, I shall use that when it arrives.
I understand you. Yes. The lack of skimmings is probably a problem and perhaps it can be partially compensated with muscovado sugar. How did you decide 3l molasses and 3.5kg muscovado? Only because you think the distillers molasses have more sugar? Why? According to Arroyo have molasses for Rum 50-58% sugar. Is this higher than your molasses?
And then we have an original recipe: http://cocktailwonk.com/2016/03/days-of ... dient.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Skimmings 620gal at 12 brix (what means perhaps 12.5% sugar) Molasses 200gal (with probably 50-58% sugar)
So there is more sugar from the molasses than from the skimmings. In your recipe only 1/3 of the sugar is from the molasses.
But this is the only one original recipe I know. Is it a heavy Rum, is it a light one? I don't know. And unfortunately it is gal not lbs. Skimmings are foamy. I am not sure if I interpret the 12 brix right. What is the volume of 620gal skimmings in the wash? Or the weight per gal? Perhaps much less. So perhaps there is a way smaller amount of skimmings in a wash than those numbers suggest.
When they produce sugar, how much molasses and how much skimmings do they get? Really three times more skimmings than molasses?
The use of skimmings depends on the availabilty and price for skimmings vs molasses. Skimmings have to be fresh, molasses not. The regions with much Rum production import their molasses, because they don't have enough in their region. They can't import skimmings. So they use more molasses probably.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:09 pm
by Smeg
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:15 pm
by NZChris
The lack of skummings isn't a problem for what you are doing, as skummings normally go into the pits with the dunder and lees, etc. for making essence, not directly into the wash.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:36 pm
by Pikey
der wo - HAve you ever "sighted in" a telescopic sight on a rifle ? - You make a BIG target and take a few shots at a specific distance. Assess the error and adjust the sights to where you feel you should be in the right "Ball park" - take a few more shots and repeat as many times as neccessary, but each time you get closer to the bullseye
All I have to work on atm is my "Bacardi(ish)" which produces tastes in Heads and Tails which I recognise out of the "darkest rums" The amount of molasses in this first experiment is approx Six times the amount I use in that. The sugar is Muscovado as opposed to the white I use there. This sugar is supposed to contain molasses as well as the other "traces"
My still is different from the ones they use and my run protocol will be different also.
When I have taken my shot, I shall taste, rapid age as best I can and taste again. Then I shall mentally assess the deviation from the "Bullseye", adjust whatever I fancy and take another shot !
There is much superstition around this "mystery ingredient", yet the few comparisons I have read on here, do not seem to give much credence to "funk" etc. Perhaps this "Dunder mystery" is simply a window dressing, invented by the Shamans, to keep the tribesmen from attempting to duplicate their "wonderful" ambrosia ?
If I was making a fairly simple drink, and I had a great pit of waste crap, with dead bats etc floating about in it - just pure waste, would I as an artist (Witch doctor) in a land where black magic, Voodoo is a highly regarded Religion, imbue this cess pit with some mystical power ?
Yes I think I would, If I could get away with it !
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:51 pm
by Pikey
Thanks for that vid smeg - Interesting to hear what they had to say about the use of Dunder
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:58 pm
by NZChris
I don't think there is much to making rums like CM Dark and Black Heart. From what I can make out, they are industrial rums, probably continuous strip, then pot, not artisan, with a bit of caramel added. Today, I'll make up a sample of my most boring Jaggery rum and add caramel. I reckon that is going to be very close to Black Heart, and probably CM Dark as well. If I'm wrong, I'll try it with an all molasses rum that is just starting to come right now.
These rums are cheaply available in NZ, not great sippers, and I won't using my stocks of good rums to make bottles of this stuff.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:34 am
by NZChris
I wouldn't have called either of today's experiments great rums.
My neighbour had a taste of the rum with a splash of Coke I was drinking and thought it was very nice. It was poured from all of yesterday's trial samples. I just tried it straight and I think it's crap.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:35 am
by der wo
NZChris wrote:The lack of skummings isn't a problem for what you are doing, as skummings normally go into the pits with the dunder and lees, etc. for making essence, not directly into the wash.
I have read both ways, skimmings into the wash and skimmings into the Pit. I don't know. Perhaps into the pit is the more common way.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:53 am
by der wo
Pikey wrote:All I have to work on atm is my "Bacardi(ish)" which produces tastes in Heads and Tails which I recognise out of the "darkest rums" Perhaps because you distilled it only to 60%? Not like Bacardi to 90+? The amount of molasses in this first experiment is approx Six times the amount I use in that. The sugar is Muscovado as opposed to the white I use there. This sugar is supposed to contain molasses as well as the other "traces" Yes and no. Because 95% of the Muscovado is sugar. So your 3.5kg Muscovado contain only 175g molasses and other traces.
There is much superstition around this "mystery ingredient", yet the few comparisons I have read on here, do not seem to give much credence to "funk" etc. Perhaps this "Dunder mystery" is simply a window dressing, invented by the Shamans, to keep the tribesmen from attempting to duplicate their "wonderful" ambrosia ?
If I was making a fairly simple drink, and I had a great pit of waste crap, with dead bats etc floating about in it - just pure waste, would I as an artist (Witch doctor) in a land where black magic, Voodoo is a highly regarded Religion, imbue this cess pit with some mystical power ?
Yes I think I would, If I could get away with it ! If what you read about infected dunder does not convince you, it's ok. Write that you don't believe it, it's ok. But I don't understand why you are writing polemical. Noone claims your Rum is bad because you don't use infected dunder.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:24 am
by NZChris
der wo wrote:
NZChris wrote:The lack of skummings isn't a problem for what you are doing, as skummings normally go into the pits with the dunder and lees, etc. for making essence, not directly into the wash.
I have read both ways, skimmings into the wash and skimmings into the Pit. I don't know. Perhaps into the pit is the more common way.
They are both used, but to emulate a particular style of rum, you need to find out as much as you can about what the makers of those rums do, then emulate them to the best of your ability.
I grow my own cane so that I can have juice, trash, skimmings and natural starter cultures, but it hasn't helped me make a great rum yet.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:49 am
by der wo
NZChris wrote:I grow my own cane so that I can have juice, trash, skimmings and natural starter cultures, but it hasn't helped me make a great rum yet.
NZChris,
this is very interesting. How does skimmings taste like? Just like the juice? Then we could replace it with Moscovado perhaps. Or perhaps with panela.
If skimmings taste like sugar cane juice, a rum with much skimmings would taste like Rum Agricole or Cachaca.
For me the problem is, you write that skimmings has only little influence, but: https://www.bostonapothecary.com/j-s-te ... aica-1871/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Skimmings communicate in a far greater degree than molasses the characteristic stamp to rum. A spirit made of pure molasses and water would scarcely be rum; and instances are familiar of molasses having been removed from one place and distilled at another, which, with different skimmings, have produced an entirely different rum.
BTW https://archive.org/stream/ldpd_1092412 ... 0/mode/2up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow 250gal skimmings 10000 saccharometrie points
475gal dunder 23750
75gal molasses 25500
200gal water
Here 2.5 times more sugar is from molasses than from skimmings.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:10 am
by der wo
Pikey,
perhaps you want to read this pdf about molasses:
Skimmings is the foam when you boil the juice to reduce it. I've only done that once and there wasn't enough skimmings to be worth doing anything with. I don't remember what it tasted like, probably much like the cane.
The two times I have fermented juice, I fermented without reducing.
Whether, or not, the muscovado you can get has been skimmed, I wouldn't know. There are a variety of ways of removing the water, including under vacuum, and I don't know if they all include some version of skimming. Currently, I have two very different versions, one from Bolivia, black and tasty and oozing molasses, and another insipid vacuum evaporated light colored one from India that I have to split with an axe.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:30 am
by der wo
NZChris wrote:...and another insipid vacuum evaporated light colored one from India that I have to split with an axe.
Are you sure it is molasses? Sounds more like jaggery. And jaggery like panela contains all the sugar from the canes (and perhaps all skimmings), molasses not. Could you describe the difference in taste?
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:29 pm
by NZChris
The Indian one is Jaggery, but they call it Jaggery regardless of whether it is made traditionally in open vats, or reduced under vacuum.
My Bolivian version is from a market stall and was made traditionally. It has a different name again, but I've forgotten it.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:08 pm
by Pikey
Evening all, we've been to a "gathering" and made the acquaintance of a couple who invited us back for a "nighcap", after the guy mentioning that he had a bottle of "Pussers - gunpowder rum". I think he was a little surprised that I sat and sipped it for so long and he told me where he had bought it (local)
I have to say that disappointment was my main feeling. He was enamoured by the fact it said 57% abv on the bottle, but of course that was not something I found impressive. (I didn't tell him any of that of course, but was tempted to fetch a "drop of my bacardi" at the same proof or a little better, for him to try - I need a couple of references from people I know first )
Black it was not. "Chestnut" would be a better colour to me or possible "mahogany".
HEads - in Abundance, possibly some hearts, but to me very lacking in those essential "Tails notes"
Plenty of "Fire and brimstone" - but subtlety, fruity notes, complexity and interest - none whatever ! I can absolutely do better than that !
Anyway, I have 25 kg dark muscovado and 25 kg light muscovado just arrived, so fermentation will begin next week - atb
p
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:45 pm
by Still Life
Was given a Jack Daniels' sample pack (airline bottles) and was amazed at the lack of character with each successive bottle.
Even their premier 'Gentleman Jack' was oK, but weak and watery.
Kept criticism to myself till this post.
Amazing, Pikey.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:30 pm
by NZChris
Pikey wrote:Black it was not. "Chestnut" would be a better colour to me or possible "mahogany".
HEads - in Abundance, possibly some hearts, but to me very lacking in those essential "Tails notes"
Did you add water to cut it to less than 40% for your evaluation? I would have. High proof buggers up my taste buds so I always cut before tasting.
I had a taste of Kraken this afternoon. It tastes like some rum I made grappa style, (a sugar wash using dunder and appropriate botanicals), with my caramel added.
He also had a bottle of Captain Morgan Dark that I could have tried, but it hadn't been opened and I refused to open it just to evaluate it.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:11 am
by Pikey
Still Life wrote:Was given a Jack Daniels' sample pack (airline bottles) and was amazed at the lack of character with each successive bottle.
Even their premier 'Gentleman Jack' was oK, but weak and watery.
.........
That's interesting SL - I'm no expert on JD tho' - did the bottles have the "Proof" printed on them ?
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:16 am
by Pikey
NZChris wrote:
Did you add water to cut it to less than 40% for your evaluation? I would have. High proof buggers up my taste buds so I always cut before tasting.
..........
No Chris, sadly I felt that would have been a little "rude" - however, "References" having now proved satisfactory, I probably will at some point in the future. I do hear what you are saying, but I find I can discern some flavour at 60% when I have (infrequently) tried at that level.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:39 am
by LWTCS
Rude? Not at all.
It's a common practice when truly evaluating.
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:52 am
by HDNB
LWTCS wrote:Rude? Not at all.
It's a common practice when truly evaluating.
for sure. I always suggest samplers reduce it with water. Especially inexperienced tasters who don't really drink straight booze, tell 'em it "opens it up"
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 6:04 am
by der wo
Many distillers dilute to 25% when drinking not for fun but for the job (when blending barrels for example).
Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:40 am
by spiff
There is a pretty cool article on wired.com right now on a guy speeding up his rum aging and other tricks..
- Interesting to hear what they had to say about the use of Dunder 
