Learning to Toast

[OtisT]

Having concentrated early solely on mashes, fermentation, and distilling, I have come to realize that my greatest weakness at this point is my lack of understanding of woods, toasting, aging, and how to combine a variety of these things to get the best final product. This thread is really helpful, giving me food for thought.

Glad this thread has helped you. I was (am still) in the same boat. I have come to think of making good spirits as a three legged stool: fermentation, distilling, aging. The main issue with the third leg is that it takes so damn long to see results of any tests. It helps to stick with materials and techniques that others have had luck with, and with those make small adjustments to taste. Everything I’ve done based on what others have documented previously, and I just tried the various materials/techniques to see what I like. Not much new in this world though I do try to branch out a bit where I can.

I’ve had some good luck playing with fruitwoods recently, and am working on acquiring various nut woods to play with next. Some info on fruitwood is in my thread “learning about fruitwood for aging”. I got lucky and found three types that I like from one source.

Good luck. Otis

[OtisT]

Read an interesting article this morning about oak barrels. In the article they claim that there is close to 400 varieties of oak but barrels are only built out of 20 of those 400.

I would believe that. Some oak species are ruled out for barrel use due to grain issues alone (won’t hold liquid well), not that they won’t make a good tasting spirit, so for folks who age in jars there should be more than 20 that could work for aging.

For what it’s worth, I have been happy with Oregon Oak (OO) for taste, smell, and holding liquid in my badmo style barrel heads. It’s not legal to commercially harvest Oregon Oak, which may be partly why you don’t hear about it being used, but if you can find a land owner with a mill, like I did, you can buy QS boards from them. The grain is not as consistent as American White Oak (AWO) from the north, so I have to be a little more selective on the boards I use for barrel heads. It has a bit more tannins in it, and a lighter “oaky” taste/smell as compared to AWO.

Otis

[OtisT]

Toasted some more cherry today.

Toasting some cherry

A few weeks back I toasted up some hand split cherry sticks. I toasted then on two sides on my hot plate. In retrospect, the pieces were a bit big so today I sliced up the larger sticks and toasted them from the cut ends. Now I have the sticks I needed for my next experiment.

Otis
.

[OtisT]

Making charred blocks from barrel scraps

Lots of barrel head making scraps. This is Oregon Oak, toasted one side at 400 F for 2.5 hours.

Barrel scraps

Use the ban saw to cut scraps into manageable and usable size pieces

Manageable pieces

Bandsaw again. Split the chunk’s toasted from untoasted side

Split toasted from raw wood

Place all the toasted pieces together on concrete, fresh split side up, and blast with the flame thrower for 25 seconds. Douse with water immediately. Gently rinse off each chunk with water and let dry. Store in a covered container to protect the charred surface.

Charred hunks of toasted oak

I’m digging the Oregon Oak on both whiskey and rum. It’s light on the nose, allowing other good scents to come through.

Otis

[OtisT]

I’m still on my Oregon Oak kick.

Today I came upon a commercial “distiller” using Oregon Oak in their aging process. East Side distilling, “Burnside Oregon Oaked Bourbon”. I’ve looked around for folks using Oregon Oak before with no success, so I think this is a relatively new product. It’s the first place I have found using Oregon Oak, other than me. Their specific application is for bourbon. After their Bourbon is aged in AWO barrels, they put the bourbon in a new “heavily charred” Oregon Oak barrel for 60 more days. Because it’s their regular “burnside bourbon” only with the additional treatment, I can try both and see what the additional treatment does for them. I’m excited to try it.

I put the quotes around the word distiller are because this placed does not distill. They buy GNS and do their own finishing from what I am told. (They lied to me when I asked about this.) I’m not a big fan of their products, don’t like them misrepresenting who did the distilling, but I’ve had worse products and have been lied to before, so I’ll have to give it a try once to see what it’s like. I also want to find out if they toast their barrels too and to what level.

Otis

[Oldvine Zin]

Wonder how truthful they about their aging process, Oregon, Oklahoma, Ohio hey they all start with an O


OVZ

[Bombo80]

I had a basic knowledge of toasting wood, and the sizing used by people here on HD.

I had a few pieces of apple wood, that have been in the garage for probably 10 plus years.

I cut them down to approx. 3/4" x 3/4" x 4" sticks, I wrapped them in aluminum foil and toasted them in a 360 degree oven for 3 hours.

I have since read this thread, as well as many others. Some for the second and third time too.

Here is what I ended up with.

You can see the one piece that is not toasted, along with the rest of the toasted pieces.
I put 3 pieces in a pint jar with as much apple brandy as the jar would hold, minus an ounce or so, just to keep it from spilling over when opened.
I haven't figured out how to take a good picture of this jar. everything is either too dark, or washes out form the flash.

[OtisT]

I put 3 pieces in a pint jar with as much apple brandy as the jar would hold, minus an ounce or so, just to keep it from spilling over when opened.
I haven't figured out how to take a good picture of this jar. everything is either too dark, or washes out form the flash.

The sticks look good Bombo. I’m guessing they were probably toasted all the way through long before 3 hours. One way to test is to pull one stick out of the batch after a period of time, maybe 45 min to one hour for the first check, then cut it in half to see how deep the toast is. Assuming you do this test before they toast all the way through you can see how deep the toast has penetrated, and this will help you determine how long it takes using your process and equipment to be done. My personal preference is for a little hint of untoasted looking wood in the center. My experience with apple and cherry is that they show the toast (change in color) fairly quickly compared to oak. I.e. they toast quicker. Plum did not show color change as quickly, and I did some maple that was very slow and did not change much in color. More info on my toasting of fruitwood is in the FRUITWOOD thread linked to in my signature below.

My personal opinion is that you have WAY too much wood in that jar. For a pint with an inch of head space I would use half of one of those sticks per jar, maybe less. It’s good to have some head space for air when aging in jars, so I think it would be better to put around 600 ml in a quart jar with one stick at most, maybe a portion of one. These are just my preferences for using fruitwood with whiskey and rum. I’ve not done brandy with fruitwood before.

Pics are tough, especially for dark spirits. I use an all white background, placing the jars at least 6” in front of the background so light hits the jars and the background (not blocked by the jar.). Having at least two lights behind the camera shining on the jars, from opposite sides, will help fill any shadows the jars make on the background. If you do this don’t use a flash at all. I had some bourbon that was so dark I could not see the wood inside the jar and the only way to see the color was to hold a light behind the jar. Natural light is best, and/or use full spectrum grow lights for accurate color.

Thanks for sharing what you have done. Post here again with the results of your brandy aging.

Otis

[Bombo80]

Boy do I feel like a dumbass !!!!!!!!!!

My math completely failed me. Recalculating my square inches, with 3 sticks I have over 37 square inches of wood in that pint.

I recalculated it and I still screwed it up. My 3 sticks are giving me 39.375 sq. in. of wood.

You are correct, even one of my 4 inch sticks is too much for a pint. One stick would be over 13 sq. in..
I would only need a 2.75 inch piece to give me the 9.3 sq. in. for the amount of brandy I have in the jar.
This is going off the amount given in T-Pee's oaking thread.

Fortunately it will have been just less than 24 hours since I put them in the jar. I will make the adjustment as soon as I get home. Depending on the damn snow storm hitting us today.

Thanks for the heads up.

[CuWhistle]

I have a question I can't find an answer to. How long will toasted oak retain it's toast characteristics if unused?

I toasted up a bunch of sticks over 6 years ago and they've been stored in a foil pack in a plastic airtight container. Are these still good to just use as they are or would a freshen up in the oven help? Or are they no longer much use?

[OtisT]

I have a question I can't find an answer to. How long will toasted oak retain it's toast characteristics if unused?

I toasted up a bunch of sticks over 6 years ago and they've been stored in a foil pack in a plastic airtight container. Are these still good to just use as they are or would a freshen up in the oven help? Or are they no longer much use?

Sorry, but I don’t know the answer to this. I suspect that having been kept dry and dark during those 6 years that they will be just fine for use.

Otis

[CuWhistle]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, they are fine. Already in use as they were and doing a great job.

[OtisT]

Improved results in my oven.

I needed to toast a lot of hand split sticks and decided to try my big oven again to see if I could figure out how to get better and more consistent results. My previous attempts in my big oven produced very uneven results, I believe from having some hot spots where the gas heat was coming from. Having to open the door several times to move pieces around for even results meant loosing heat and extending toast time, and the results were still uneven.

The hot plates are still working great for my barrel heads, for toasting only one side, but for uneven shaped sticks the process on the plates is taking too much wood prep sanding a flat surface and it was taking too long having to flip sides.

After only a few test I figured out the configuration in my big oven that provided the best results for even and consistent toasting.

1) I placed a very large aluminum cookie sheet on the lowest rack. You can see the flame through the holes in the bottom of the oven. Those holes are where the extra hot air come from, producing the hot spots just above them around the edges and ends of the oven. The lower sheet does a great job dispersing heat and providing consistent temps for the wood toasting above.

Heat baffle and thermometers on lowest rack

I place two thermometers on the cookie sheet and pre-heat the oven to temp. I found my oven’s built in thermometer is off by about 15 degrees F as compared to the two independent thermometers.

2) wood goes in the center rack only. Sticks on the higher rack were not as uniform in toast as sticks in the middle rack.

Sticks on middle rack for most consistency

The combination of the sheet below and sticks at the mid level have given me several batches of consistently toasted sticks. I’m happy I was finally able to figure out how to work the big oven properly.

Otis

[OtisT]

I work a lot with Oregon Oak. I keep reading more and more about distilleries that use it and wanted to save the articles, so figured this was a good thread to tack this on to.

Forbs article titled “ How Westland Is Leading An American Single Malt Revolution”

A section of this article talks about their use of Oregon Oak and the flavors it brings to a spirit. Since I’m not good at identifying flavors, I thought this would be useful to me going forward.

https://apple.news/AV31m6GMlRcGNrXxd2hIi_w

The specific text:

The flavour is outrageous. It's strong and powerful. It does what Quercus Alba does, but darker. Quercus Alba gives you caramel, Garryana gives you molasses. Quercus Alba gives you generic baking spices, Garryanna gives you clove. Fruity notes in that white American oak, like orange marmalade, becomes blackberry jam.

Otis

[sadie33]

OtisT, when you did your hand split sticks, did you sand them before putting them in the oven, or were you only sanding them when using the hot plate?

We use our own wood from our property for our woodstove. I have a pile of 2 yr old aged oak. I was thinking of splitting some up and toasting. But not sure if I should sand them first.

This was a VERY interesting read. I am so glad I was able to read it after all the results came in! I love doing these types of experiments. It really does stink that you have to wait so long to taste the results, but I guess that's the fun part too. (I do them with my pickles, but can taste them right away).

thanks

[OtisT]

No need to sand at all for the oven. Otis

[jonnys_spirit]

I’ll use a stiff wire brush to clean up wood and reckon that a blowtorch and 120pf likker will clean up the rest.

Cheers!
-j

[sadie33]

thanks

[rpsharman]

Hello all,

As a newbie, I have recently purchased some charred oak sticks. After reading this thread I have realized perhaps I should not have been so quick to put them in my jars of un-aged grain alcohol. They've only been in there for a day, so hopefully no real damage is done. The oak is from a dead AWO tree that was dead and standing for a year. This was then cut into logs and then split into sticks, which were charred buy not previously toasted. They were then stored for some additional time. The are well dried out, but the seller is new to selling oak sticks, and I am new to buying them. What are your thoughts? Do I just toss these? Someone here did mention toasting after charring. Maybe that's an option.

I do have some fruit woods (I read that thread too) which I need to toast myself. Looking forward to that. Crabapple, seckel pear, black cherry.

Even after a fair amount of reading this and other threads, I do have a couple of questions...

1) If you are seasoning wood outside, it grays right? Presumably that part is lost, and you have to cut into it? You have mentioned here buying already cut wood and putting it outside to season more, I think. The pear was covered outside for a year then 2 years inside, the cherry was 1 year uncovered outdoors and 18 months inside, and the crabapple in a drying shed with 2 sides open, but not sure how long. How do I know if it is seasoned properly? I live in Southern California. Not much rain or temperature variation. Also, some people suggest boiling and drying before toasting. Some people say to soak it again before toasting.

2) If I buy pre-toasted or charred wood and cut the sticks, the ends are raw if it's not toasted/charred all the way through. What difference will that make? Should I char the ends, or can there be exposed raw wood? Will it make much difference over 6 months of aging? I am confused about whether the toast should go all the way trough or not. There are pictures here from toasting where you have just toasted 2 sides.

Thanks

[NormandieStill]

The outdoor time is most important with tannin-rich woods, as you're trying to get the weather to leech some of that out before it gets near your booze. There's also apparently some interesting fungal action, although my experience with oak (as a carpenter) is that the heartwood is pretty damn resistant to any fungal action so I don't know how true that is. If you're working with fruit woods that are low in tannins, you might not need so much time. Other than that you want it to have dried out (as you would with firewood) so that you're not just pulling wood sap out into your spirits.

I have oak that I toasted in the oven for long enough to toast right through. If you char the surface, you will also toast the wood underneath to some degree. By changing the temperature of the wood (by freezing for example) or by changing the temperature of your flame, you can control the depth to which that toast penetrates. I'm not sure that this will ever be very precise though. One of the issues at our scale is that the variance in toasting / charring can have quite an impact on the final flavours, in a way that the same variance across barrels will average out on a larger scale.

[OtisT]

I agree with what NormandyStill said above.

1) If you are seasoning wood outside, it grays right? Presumably that part is lost, and you have to cut into it? Yes and Yes. I shave off just enough to get to clean wood. A chop saw on the ends, and a hand plane (or jointer) on the sides. . You have mentioned here buying already cut wood and putting it outside to season more, I think. The pear was covered outside for a year then 2 years inside, the cherry was 1 year uncovered outdoors and 18 months inside, and the crabapple in a drying shed with 2 sides open, but not sure how long. How do I know if it is seasoned properly? I live in Southern California. Not much rain or temperature variation. . Like Normandy, I don’t know if fruitwood needs to season long unless it’s high in tannins. Try what you have and see if it makes a bitter spirit. If it does, try aging it longer. Also, some people suggest boiling and drying before toasting. Some people say to soak it again before toasting. . I’m not sure why folks would be doing that. Do they have bad wood and are trying to leach out the tannins?


2) If I buy pre-toasted or charred wood and cut the sticks, the ends are raw if it's not toasted/charred all the way through. What difference will that make? Should I char the ends, or can there be exposed raw wood? Will it make much difference over 6 months of aging? I am confused about whether the toast should go all the way trough or not. There are pictures here from toasting where you have just toasted 2 sides. . I wouldn’t worry about the end grain on a stick. Just use it as is. Less is better, until you have used that wood before with success.

[rpsharman]

Thank you both!! A subsequent email from the oak supplier is that the tree stood dead for 2+ years. I would imagine cut and stacked wood would season better dues to exposed edges, but I am not going to commit too much whisky to this oak, and I will see what happens. I feel confident the fruit wood is ok. This first round is going to be experimental. I just need to decide whether to oak and fruit in the same jar, oak to satisfaction then fruit (which will take a long time, or just fruit and then maybe blend with some of the whisky aged with oak. Or all three, I guess!

I agree with what NormandyStill said above.

1) If you are seasoning wood outside, it grays right? Presumably that part is lost, and you have to cut into it? Yes and Yes. I shave off just enough to get to clean wood. A chop saw on the ends, and a hand plane (or jointer) on the sides. . You have mentioned here buying already cut wood and putting it outside to season more, I think. The pear was covered outside for a year then 2 years inside, the cherry was 1 year uncovered outdoors and 18 months inside, and the crabapple in a drying shed with 2 sides open, but not sure how long. How do I know if it is seasoned properly? I live in Southern California. Not much rain or temperature variation. . Like Normandy, I don’t know if fruitwood needs to season long unless it’s high in tannins. Try what you have and see if it makes a bitter spirit. If it does, try aging it longer. Also, some people suggest boiling and drying before toasting. Some people say to soak it again before toasting. . I’m not sure why folks would be doing that. Do they have bad wood and are trying to leach out the tannins?


2) If I buy pre-toasted or charred wood and cut the sticks, the ends are raw if it's not toasted/charred all the way through. What difference will that make? Should I char the ends, or can there be exposed raw wood? Will it make much difference over 6 months of aging? I am confused about whether the toast should go all the way trough or not. There are pictures here from toasting where you have just toasted 2 sides. . I wouldn’t worry about the end grain on a stick. Just use it as is. Less is better, until you have used that wood before with success.

[NormandieStill]

I tend to oak by surface area. A standard US whisky barrel gives a little under 100cm² / litre of surface, which can be translated directly to staves. Personal experiments with water have shown that end grain does release more "colour", more rapidly than side-grain, so I either seal the ends with beeswax, or count that surface area twice to try and reduce its effect. If I'm prepared to stand the wait and want a little more control, I halve the amount of oak surface that I put in and the colour change is clearly slower. I don't yet have enough aged booze where I've done side-by-side to get a real idea of whether that's worth it.

What I have noticed is that whisky with charred oak gets noticeably smoother, faster than with simply toasted oak. But (and I'm working with French oak so this may not be comparable with US oak), I find that the flavour profile after time on toasted but uncharred oak is more complex, and more to my palate. To offer some numbers, I had a whisky that was drinkable after about 9 months on charred oak, but the identical spirit on an otherwise identical stave, didn't start to come good until at least 18 months to 2 years.